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PLEASE HELP ME

I really don't care to get further involved with this thread but I have to state one thing ..........  Lee this board is not for name calling and aggressive behavior, you need to tone it down and act a bit more mature.  You may or may not be in the right but your attitude really needs an adjustment.   State your case and prove your case but don't resort to name calling and don't attack other users for posting their opinion since this is a public forum, you need to either prove your case ( which you have not done ) or give it a rest and quit all the nonsense.  No one respects a loud mouth ....



Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
Well you all seem to act like you have read the whole ad and statements from each person but obviously people are not. You can easily see that from Dianne, No offense towards you but you said that Al said that all snakes were not eating when he told everyone two were just fussy eaters. I believe you all and yes I was being very mature this is going to end now. Everyone is not reading everything and thats very noticeable. No one really cares or they would just say e-mail me the pictures since it is impossiable for me to post them on the BOI so everyone who really cares and trys to say I am lieing why dont you just hold you guts before they fall into my hands and just say Lee e-mail me the pictures!!! I have provided plenty of proof you all just felled to comprehend the situation in the right way and trust me if you are not takeing either side read what I have posted it tells you alot and if you read what everyone else has posted it doesnt make any sense in the fact that they just jump all over me!! Big thing is they talk about things totaly irrelavant to the fact. This whole thing is freaking ridiculose. I have been dealing with reptiles for a while saleing and recieveing. Al just cant admit that he sent two dead snakes its not uncommon. Now before you all jump on me and say I am not provideing proof look at what I wrote ect. Then say Lee let me see the pictures I will gladly e-mail them to you as I am not a jerk even though I sounded like one many times I am just extremly frustrated with the way people dont look or bother to read the whole post and base things either on the fact that oh I will just say this or that or read a little of this and that sounds about right. Just read what I have said and try to be civilized and ask and you shal recieve. I am pretty thourghly upset that this whole board is just attacking me that the ultimate reason for what I said its a perfectly normal reaction for any human. I can only take so much and enoughf is enoughf believe you me I dont want to go to jail and I would never lie to anyone so before you brand me by that name try to say how and why I am a lier before just calling me one cause my credit card company has seen everything snakes e-mails ect.... I do it by the book and nothing more. I was suppose to get six live snakes and did not thats all their is to it and if no one can possiable know how I feel or anything dont bother telling me a thing becasue when it happens to you, you will then see the true demise!! Thanks and sorry to all that I made upset on this board and please understand on this deal Al was not going to loose out I was until I showed my credit card company the info at hand and the solid proof pictures and the snakes in the flesh! I will be looking at this post to see if anyone really cares and actually want pictures and those of you that dont ask that posted obviousley were just jumping on me to give Al what they owe him for some sort of compensation.I will not post again and I know whos right and wrong and a number of other people to!!!!!!!!!! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
-Lee
 
He and when reptile buying and recieveing was out. I remmber how the whole thing went. You sent reptiles out any were dead and you saw pictures or the reptiles were sent back at the dealers expense. Its just ridiculouse what this whole thing has gotten to. I stay on a good track with everyone and then some guy does this. This is why reptiles sold over the internet is not highly approoved by many real reptiles lovers cause their is no justice. Its all about the seller costumers are just trash in the can. Its not like that with me one bit.
-Lee <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
Hey Al dont say I didnt provide any proof cause you just dont want any and dont say you paid me because you didnt bother to take the time to figure out the right paypal account! GOODBYE!!!
-LEE CAMP
 
OK, Lee --

Send me the pictures.  I'll post them for you with absolutely no hesitation in any way.  You send them to me and they'll be on the BOI ASAP!

You can send them to me at:

[email protected]
[email protected]
or
[email protected]

Fire away, my friend!  I don't know Al, and I'llbe glad to post your pics.  Let's SEE 'EM!

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its just ridiculouse what this whole thing has gotten to. I stay on a good track with everyone and then some guy does this. This is why reptiles sold over the internet is not highly approoved by many real reptiles lovers cause their is no justice.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

The issue really did not turn and become about your honesty until after  you arrived,posted contradictory information and began  swearing and rambling up and down the board.

The topic of this thread was regarding the issue of the refund and was addressed and settled  early on.

There was no guarantee, it was made clear there was no guarantee on ANY of the animals involved, it is inappropriate to demand a refund when no guarantee was issued. The  manner in which Al made you and the others who asked aware of the condition of the snakes in question and his comments about delivery guarantees were very up front and extremely easy to understand.

People did not start "attacking" you or your credibility until you posted information that contradicted itself. Which automatically makes one a lie, that's simple logic, you made mutually exclusive statements and  expected them to be taken as truth. You ranted and swore and behaved in a very poor manner, causing people to lose any respect they had for you and to doubt your credibility. You then  went off on a side issue and have been on it ever since. Nobody originally  doubted that the snakes had died, you continued to harp on that issue to the point where people became disgusted by your conduct and cast doubts on your credibility.

Al has done nothing to damage your reputation; your own actions and statements did that. You had a choice about how to respond  to the items  presented on this board and you took what seems  to be the wrong course of action. Had you come on and stated that you were not clear about the lack of a guarantee or perhaps actually presented these photos on the board- there are plenty of free photo hosting websites, it would only take a few minutes at best- someone might have had some  compassion. You chose to act like an ignorant, loud mouthed, abusive and unreasonable liar however, that was your choice, nobody elses, you need to accept and work with the consequenses.

Again however, the issue of this thread was centered around giving you a refund. No guarantee was issued, it was clear no guarantee was issued, not even live arrival and no refund is owed.  Al was kind enough to issue a partial refund back to the account that the initial payment was made from (as someone stated already, doesn't matter if it is yours, you have access to it) and then revoked it when YOU told him it was the wrong account. You then showed up on here and raised a Fecal Monsoon which did not have the results you expected. Just live with the consequenses  of your own actions and stop trying to twist this issue into something it isn't. You're nowhere near clever  enough or subtle enough to do it properly anyway.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can easily see that from Dianne, No offense towards you but you said that Al said that all snakes were not eating when he told everyone two were just fussy eaters. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Actually, I have read all of the posts, the ad in question, etc. etc. etc.  What I actually said in my last post which you are referring to here is </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for a 100% health guaranty, there was none offered because not all 6 animals were feeding and thus no guaranty was offered. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>  Perhaps I should have broken it down more simply instead of saying 'not all 6 animals were feeding' (meaning not all of the animals were feeders) but rather there was no guaranty because some of the animals were not feeding.  Does that make it clearer?

Regarding the purported pictures, feel free to email them to me at the following address:  [email protected]

I will be happy to post them via my photo hosting account.

Dianne
 
I don't  know you or Al so I would be happy to post the pics for you.  Okay here goes ...... " Lee Email me the pics "  , Now I 've said it !!!  You can email me at:

[email protected]

I will look forward to those pics Lee.



Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
Hey, I'm brand-smanking new to this site.  I joined up specifically to answer this thread (well, I'm sure I'll get to others something, too).  So, no one can really accuse me ofbeing biased one way or another toward either person involved in this squabble.

I have sat here and read this entire thread.  I'm a thorough reader, and it's all fresh in my brainmeats, so you have that, too.

Lee, could you try to reply to each of these by number to try and clear this up for everyone?  I'll make it all as siccinct as I can to keep things clear.

1:  </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offense towards you but you said that Al said that all snakes were not eating when he told everyone two were just fussy eaters. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> -Lee, Sep. 30 2002,19:12

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">with the exception of two, they are kinda fussy eaters, and have had only 2 meals, but are still very healthy. the others have eaten 4-7 times...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> -Al, Sep. 23 2002,23:43

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I just want esactly what I paid for.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> -Lee, Sep. 24 2002,15<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>5

I think that two meals, as compared to 4-7 is a bit more than "fussy."  He stated the number of feed times in his ad, so you knew what you were in for.  If I was getting snakes that ate 2-4 times less than other snakes in the batch, there's no way I'd assume they were in perfect health, no matter what the person said.  Thus, I personally wouldn't be surprisd when they died. So, you did get exactly what you paid for.

2: </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I told my card company that the two were dead on arrival same as I told you. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> -Lee, Sep. 24 2002,15<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>5

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I recieved them today and all but one seem to be
fine. He is not moving or
breathing his tongue is not longer flickering
either. Can you please e-mail
me back soon cause I am not expecting to pay for a
dead snake. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> -Lee, Sep. 24 2002,16<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok now two of them have died in less than a day they were both the
fussy
eaters now they are both dead I can send you pictures if you want </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

This seems to be the point of highest conflict.  You didn't tell Al that two were DOA.  You said that one looked dead.  So?  When did who die?  And you have offered pics SEVERAL times, but have never, apparently, offered any.  I'll post them, if you send them to me (see signature for Email addy).  Honestly, would you refund someone money for a dead snake if you had no proof the snake was dead, given how often people tend to rip other people off?  We all may be cynical, but by god, it's realistic.

3:  I understand that you're frustrated at all the repition and such, and I know that I tend to get slightly aggressive when frustrated, but you really are coming off a little . . . iffy.  This is, by no means, an attack, I'm just stating a fact.  Caps locks, oodles of exclamation points, and name calling do not make people listen more, it just makes them think you're being defensive and aggressive.  And that lowers their perception of you.  Neither party is coming off as exceptionally level-headed, tho'.

***

Well, that's my two cents.  If Lee would at least respond to Number 2, it would clear up at lot of issues floating around this topic.
 
Wow Lee!

That's . . .uh . . .let's see . . .I count . . .

1, 2, 3, 4 . . .9!!!!
email addresses submitted to you for your approval.  Anyone of the people who have made the offer to post your pics will do so (including me).  I WONDER why there have been no pics posted as of yet?

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
 
Well,

Lee sent me a picture of . . .something.  As promised, here it is untouched in any way.  You all decide what this is, and if it's proof of death!  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

Lee's Pic

In my mind, this serves as no proof whatsoever.  In fact, the way the animal's body is twisted, it very well could be a snake trying to right itself as the picture was taken.

A clear shot of a snake lying flat out on its back will absolutely show the animal to be dead.  This . . .mess . . .shows nothing but a lack of trying on Lee's part, in my opinion.

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
 
Lee sent me another picture.

This one was MUCH clearer, and, in all honesty, it did appear that the two snakes were dead in a deli cup.  However, the picture was too large for me to be able to post it without altering the pic.  I am not able to do this for two reasons a) I don't know how, and b) I promised I wouldn't alter whatever was sent to me.

Lee, send me another copy of that last pic you sent, but cut down size of it, and I'll post it right here.
 
To all that have helped Lee and I in this matter. I figured after 3 days of Lee and
I argueing about the vipers, it would be in my best interest to ask people with experience what they would do in my position. I did not mean for the post to get out of hand in any way.maybe im wrong, but I am still very upset about the name calling (liar is really upsetting) and threats of court and other actions, and apologize for things i may have said that were crass. I have been ripped off a time or two, and I was very weary about the 2 snakes in question. even though it has been 12 days after you received the vipers, I will give a full refund of $46 as soon as I receive proof that you didnt get reimbursed, and stopped action with your credit card company.

   With all of this said, I have no hard feelings of you, Lee. and I understand your feelings of 2 of 6 snakes passing. I thought if my ad was up front there wouldnt be any problems with unhappy buyers.I hope this makes both of us better people in many ways. As I posted before, you were my 2nd internet sale, and I may have gotten a little over excited myself. I never had any intention of "ripping you off" or "scamming you" and I would never lie to anybody, the last people I would lie to are the people that have the same passion for herps as I do, and those who may end up helping me with my goofy questions, and those I may buy from/sell to. as a matter of fact the only person that can say I lie is my wife ( "you said you were going to the show to buy ONE snake, thats 7") well now im straying from the subject.......please let me know the credit card claim has been stopped, and I will refund in full ($46) for the 2 snakes that have passed.    and again no hard feelings, and I apoligize for my part in this thing turning into such a disaster..........I would also like to thank those of you who have picked on me for my poor grammar, as im now trying to better my tiypinng skillz...lol.

                Thanks, Al
 
Lee,


         You sent me a pic that was fuzzy and really told nothing, maybe if you sent a smaller version ?  If you want I will post the one you sent me but I don't know what good it would do.  I also sent you an email letting you know this prior to posting here but it came back to me as undeliverable.  Please let me know what you would like me to do ....... post the pic you sent or wait for a new one from you.  I am trying to be as fair as possible.


Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
Lee's Pic

Here is the link to Lee's pic in my printroom folder.  As promised, it has not been touched up in any way, just drug and dropped into the folder.  Call me a cynic, but the pic isn't a 100% convincing to me - my SIGB will twist and contort the same way when first put down on a flat surface.  It *could* be a pic of a dead snake but  I personally feel it would have been more convincing if it were totally upside down without the twists as if it were righting itself.

Either way, I still don't personally feel Al owes any refund at all.  There was no guaranty implied or stated and the two animals were already stated to have been non-feeders prior to the purchase.  I still feel it comes under purchasing 'as is' and Lee still has four animals for less than market value even if two have died. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

Dianne
 
To whom it may concern, on 10/09/02 i have refunded in full the cost of the 2 snakes in question. I am not admitting any wrong doing by sending refund. even though the pics were more than a week later, and in my opinion were not positive proof of death.(looks like they are trying to turn right side up) I would like to resolve this matter and this is the best way it could be resolved.

              Lee, i hope the others are doing great for you, and wish you the best of luck in your hobby. and Im very hopeful this will better our transactions in the future.

              Thanks to all that helped, Al


Transaction Details




   
Payment Sent (ID #1HR68612LP675320A)  




Name:
Richard Camp     (The recipient of this payment is Verified)  
Email:  
[email protected]  






Amount:  
-46.00  






Date:  
Oct 9, 2002  
Time:  
6<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>8:35  
Status:
Completed    






Subject:  
passed vipers  
Note:  
refund for 2 unhealthy snakes in full
 
Al,

  I don't know you, but I have followed this thread, and I did see your original ads when you had the snakes up for sale. If it makes you feel any better, you definitely come out on top reputation wise from this incident. I would deal with you in a heartbeat if you ever have animals I am interested in. I'm sure many others feel the same way. By resolving the issue the way that you did, you show integrity. Put it behind you, and good luck in your future dealings.
 
I am so glad this thing finished. Al did what any reptile breed includeing my self would do. Its tuff because boths loose out in a sense. I will make sure to I guess try to comprehend things better next time or talk to someone for a month or more before buying I guess. I was able to contact Al after all of this and would recommend him to anyone and anyone at all as he has guts. I however will always remain very defensive thats just how I am and it would be weird for anyone to say they arent because you could not survive you would just take things up you rear end all the time. WELL I STAND AS AL"S REFRENCE FROM HERE ON END!!
-Lee Camp;)
 
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