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    Posted 08/15/2025
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    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

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    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Please read: Pending Lawsuit from Venomous Snake Bite

In Florida.... when I was thinking about getting into hots when I had my store.... I was obligated to have a $1,000,000 insurance policy in effect at all times.... plus do the thousand hours.... all for handling an animal that can kill you.... I saw no sense in that....

Steve.... If YOU ever get bit by one of your hots.... DON'T go to the Hospital in Hershey.... I hear that their antivenin is all "chocolate-based"!!.... It'll really do a number on your arteries.... lol

Ray.... I didn't know you were in the hospital for that bite.... that explains a LOT!!.... lol

Neil
 
As Neil and Ray brought up Florida's Venomous laws I thought they would be an interesting and infomative read for people. If these laws were instituted in other states they may save a few of the bites that occur.

1) Demonstrate no less than one year of substantial, practical experience (to consist of no less than 1000 hours) in the care, feeding, handling, and husbandry of the species
for which the permit is sought, or other species within the same biological order, which are substantially similar in size, characteristics, care and nutritional
requirements to the species for which the permit is sought.

1)For the purposes of demonstrating compliance applicants shall submit documentation of such experience, including: a description of the experience acquired, the dates the experience was obtained, and the specific location( s) where acquired, and references of no less than two individuals having personal
knowledge of your stated experience. Personal reference letters do not need to be authored by venomous reptile permittees. Additional documentation may include records of prior permits for the keeping of venomous reptiles, employment records, or any other competent documentation of the requisite experience.

2) Documented educational experience in zoology or other relevant biological sciences obtained at the college or technical school or above may substitute for upto six months or 500 hours of the required experience.

(3) Shall not have been convicted of a violation of venomous reptile regulations for three years prior to application for such permit.

4) Must be at least 18 years old at the time of application


Scott Bice
 
This Might be of some help to you I just went digging through my old Reptile laws and found these to links to the laws.

Penn requires a special permit for people to collect Timber Rattlesnakes. No age is asked for this permit but as you must have a fishing license as well to collect reptiles a 16 year old can obtain this permit and license, So it would stand to reason and logic the State allows for 16 year olds to posses venomous reptiles.

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/

I still wonder why you would allow a minor to take possesion of a venomous reptile and to use a credit card without and adult present though. However the above information may help you to not suffer anything more than a very valuable lesson learned NOT TO SELL TO MINORS.

Scott Bice
 
Mustangrde1 said:

1) Demonstrate no less than one year of substantial, practical experience (to consist of no less than 1000 hours) in the care, feeding, handling, and husbandry of the species
for which the permit is sought, or other species within the same biological order, which are substantially similar in size, characteristics, care and nutritional
requirements to the species for which the permit is sought.

2) Documented educational experience in zoology or other relevant biological sciences obtained at the college or technical school or above may substitute for upto six months or 500 hours of the required experience.

(3) Shall not have been convicted of a violation of venomous reptile regulations for three years prior to application for such permit.

4) Must be at least 18 years old at the time of application


Ok, #4 is perfectly reasonable. #3 is perfectly reasonable. #2 is well kinda worthless IMHO. Taking a zoology/biology course and trying to substitute that as hours towards educational experience relating to a hot species is a joke. It does not compute. I've taken such college level courses and they don't talk crap about hot snakes other than they are classified as a reptile. I am unsure what you mean by a technical school let alone how that would apply to hot snakes.

#1 sounds good at first glance, but from a practical standpoint it would not work.

You are talking about having to work with a particular hot species 3 hours per day every single day just to meet a minimum 1000 hour per year requirement.

1 year consisting of no less than 1000 hours would insinuate that you would actually prefer that people spent more than 1000 hours in that one year? So that means.... you would like to see what.... 4, 6, 8-hour days every single day working with a particular species?

Even at a minimum 1000 hours it would be impractical for anyone (with a life and a job) to meet that requirement in a single year's time unless the person happened to work a paying job in an animal industry that actually worked with hots on a daily basis and happened to include the species that person might be trying to get a permit for.

I've got a hot snake. Let us assume for the moment that I happened to move to a state where your proposed guideline was in effect and wanted to take my snake with me. This would mean that I would have to apply for a permit to be able to keep my snake. Ok cool. I have no problems with being required to hold a permit. I meet the 2, 3, & 4 requirements right out of the bag.

Now, under your proposed guideline for requirement #1 which is 1 year's experience consisting of no less than 1000 demonstratable hours in order to be considered acceptable enough to earn that permit...

It takes me 20-30 minutes on average to clean my snake's cage once a week: remove dirty carpet and cage furnishings, wipe down cage, put clean carpet in, bleach/scrub water bowl, rinse, refill and put back in the cage, clean ceramic hide house if necessary, clean the dirty carpets and set out to dry for the following week). It takes me all of 2 minutes to drop a couple of dead mice into the cage every other week. That only comes to oh about 30 hours of practical care work related experience earned in a year's time for that snake (or in this case his species). What am I supposed to be doing with the other 970+ hours... harssing the poor snake with unnecessary handling for at least 2.5 hours every single day? Man, I'd be screwed out of ever being able to keep my snake unless I was working with about 25-30 other snakes just like him. I have one, I like my one snake, I don't have a need for more than one let alone a couple dozen of them. :)


Adrian
 
As far as the credit card...

If it was Visa or Mastercard that was used:

The mother can protest the charges with the issuing bank, but then she will need to agree to prosecute her son for using her card illegally. I don't know how Amex or Discover work, but V/MC instituted that policy years ago.
 
Adrian.... there's a very easy answer to that....

If you don't like the rules.... don't play the game??

The law in Florida says that you have to spend at least 1000 hours working with hots.... you can take as long as you want to do this, with the MINIMUM being one year.... if you want to work 2 hours a week and take ten years to complete your 1000 hours, that's entirely up to you.... I think the law, in this case, is great.... it keeps the novices from hurting themselves and endangering others.... and, if you own a herp store, you could easily end up with free help....

When The Snake Pit was open, and Jewell Howard (who already HAS her hot license) was my manager for a year and a half, we had no less than three people that wanted to help out at the store (with Jewell) learning about hots, and then going back to her house to actually work with them.... it was good for me, because they worked for free, and it helped them build up their hours in order to get their license (even though none of them lasted long enough to get their licenses).... they, too, didn't want to go through all the hours necessary....

The laws in Florida are strict for a reason.... you can abide by them, or not.... it's your choice....

Neil
 
Terese.... you might be mistaken.... you can't prosecute a minor for anything!!.... You would have to sue his parents or guardian.... talk about a Catch-22 ??

It's happened to me.... one of the past members on this site bought over $3000 worth of animals from me in about a year's time.... she used her husband's credit card (her name was NOT on the card).... long story short.... they broke up, the husband charged back EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION she made with EVERY VENDOR she made it with HIS CARD.... the credit card company took all of that money right out of my account 13 MONTHS AFTER THE TRANSACTIONS!!.... She STILL owes me $450.... No charges were ver brought against her....

Neil
 
I did a little research and, as insane as it may seem, it appears that there is no regulation at all regarding the sale and ownership of venomous exotics in Pennsylvania. There does not even seem to be an age requirement. The only minimal regulation relates to native species.

Unfreakinbelievable!
 
Neil Gubitz said:
Adrian.... there's a very easy answer to that....

If you don't like the rules.... don't play the game??

The law in Florida says that you have to spend at least 1000 hours working with hots.... you can take as long as you want to do this, with the MINIMUM being one year.... if you want to work 2 hours a week and take ten years to complete your 1000 hours, that's entirely up to you.... I think the law, in this case, is great.... it keeps the novices from hurting themselves and endangering others.... and, if you own a herp store, you could easily end up with free help....


You are not reading what I was saying. A proposed guideline was offered on what hot regulations should/could entail in order to get a permit to keep one - it was not stated that it was Florida's regulations...just a set of guidelines that was thought to be good enough to be possibly instituted in other states. What I find hard to comprehend is that the proposed guideline made in Scott's post stipulated that 1 year's demonstratable experience had to consist of no less than 1000 hours...not that it could take 10 years or 20 years to accomplish that goal but no less than 1000 hours in one year's time. I was responding to that statement with a scenario of why I thought it would not realistically work out.

And looking back at that post it would seem it has since been edited as there is an additional paragraph under requirement #1 that was not there previously when I took the time to compose my first message.


Adrian
 
Adrian.... I was referring to these four paragraphs you wrote....

----------------------

....#1 sounds good at first glance, but from a practical standpoint it would not work.

You are talking about having to work with a particular hot species 3 hours per day every single day just to meet a minimum 1000 hour per year requirement.

1 year consisting of no less than 1000 hours would insinuate that you would actually prefer that people spent more than 1000 hours in that one year? So that means.... you would like to see what.... 4, 6, 8-hour days every single day working with a particular species?

Even at a minimum 1000 hours it would be impractical for anyone (with a life and a job) to meet that requirement in a single year's time unless the person happened to work a paying job in an animal industry that actually worked with hots on a daily basis and happened to include the species that person might be trying to get a permit for.

-------------------------------

I might have missed your point, that's what I thought you meant.... sorry....

Realistically, all you would have to do is work 3 hours a day (seven days a week) for a year and you would have your 1000 hours.... if you worked at a herp store as a job, you could do it in less than 6 months....

It IS a very hard and tedious process, but well worth it in the long run....

BTW.... you must have missed whatever "last paragraph" you were speaking of, because there is NO WAY you can edit your posts on this site, unless Rich changed something very recently??....

Neil
 
Needless to say, if there are no regulations in PA regarding venomous snakes now, there will be soon if this blows up.

We all must remain diligent to a "T". Its incidents like this that give all those interested in further regulations and anti-herp rhetoric another case to use against the keeping of reptiles. This should serve as a reminder to all as to what can happen that one time.
 
After much consideration and reflection on this thread, as well as the apparent direction it is now headed, I felt that the thread is really not relevant material for the BOI. Instead, I felt that moving this thread into the Venomous general discussion forum was in the best interests of most of us here.

Sorry if it confused anyone having it vanish like it did from the BOI.
 
The Laws of Florida I posted were NOT proposed they are the exact laws. Something may have been missed in the copy and paste the converter from PDF to HTML does that on occasion.

As to the comment on not being able to do it in a year Both my wife and I were able to do it holding down Jobs at the time and volunteering after or before them. It is possible it takes dedication and the will and want to do so.

The laws are tough here for a reason. The Inspections are done and the officers who do them are very complete with making sure you abide by them. It is well wourth it though It has checks and balances through the whole process. You Have to be trained which means with an experianced handler. Safety check . You have to be inspected. Safety check.

As to moving to this state and wanting to keep your snake. All you need to do is before moving send them a copy of your out of state license or experiance before hand. Have your inspection withen 30 days of moving here and your good to go. I know several people who have done this with out a problem.

Scott Bice
 
Neil:

It wouldn't be suing, it would be filing criminal charges for either forgery or unauthorized use of a credit device, depending on whether or not the kid signed his mother's name or his own. It's up to the DA to determine if the child would be charged as a juvenile or as an adult, but most felonies committed after the age of 16 1/2 are reviewed to determine whether it qualified to be filed as an adult charge. However, most non-violent crimes are kept in the juvenile court system.

I'm not sure how it worked with your customer and her husband, but I went rounds on this issue twice with one of my foster sons, and the credit card company told me then that they had instituted that policy to keep down the number of chargebacks from feuding relatives.
 
I know this is going a bit off the origional topic however, I think that has been addressed. The rules impossed by Florida I have to agree with 100%. The fees have even increased recently. The rules for permiting are there for several reasons..... They discourage under age collectors, novelty collectors, inexperienced handlers etc. They also, insure the safety of the general public by enforcing cage requirements. In addition the inspections can insure that the specimens are being cared for properly. The only persons complaining are those who are not serious about the venomous species they wish to work with. It's a win , win situation. It gives the public assurance, the keepers a method of gaining experience before possesion and again, insures the proper care of said venomous species. The alternative is no possesion!!!!!!!! If you are coming from out of state(As scott mentioned) and have documentation of venomous experience you do not need to fulfill the 1000 hour or 1 year requirements.
Also, if this law were adopted in other states they would "granfather in" any current hot keepers. At least that is the way it has been done with new laws here. It's not as difficult to get the accredation as you would think. I've sign off on at least 12 people over the years. The only questionable accredation part is in regards to a "class" substituting for hours?????
 
culpability in the eyes of the law

Steve,

Since I'm not a regular poster here my opinion probably holds less weight than those you know, but there is one piece of advice I hope you will take to heart:

Cease any and all conversation about the issue on these or any other boards until after a decision has been rendered by the courts.

If the mother has a good lawyer, they've already got someone googling for your name and anything you admit or bring up in writing on these threads they will be able to use against you. That includes the legal culpability of selling to a minor while knowing that the waiver was null and void, and the parental guardian wasn't present.

The purpose of the suit will be to assess blame. If the court assigns 90% of the blame to them and 10% to you, then you still have to pay that 10%, and it could add up to millions if that's what they push for.

So keep quiet, advise your lawyer about this thread (as the plaintiff's lawyer may spring it on him), and be very, VERY careful in future business dealings.

Remember, as a vendor you have the right to refuse to sell to a customer.

Good luck,
Mike W.
 
The legalities aside, getting back a bit to one of the points I addressed sideways in my first response...

I am getting REALLY SICK of the lack of consumer competence displayed these days. Seems like society has decided that people are no longer responsible for their own dumbass mistakes when using products they decided to purchase and screw around with.

This snake situation is no different than whatever moron went and used their hair dryer in the shower, so now they all have warning stickers on them.

If a consumer is too stupid to use a product correctly and in a manner which doesn't get themselves killed, they're too stupid to own the product (or live, as the case may be). Let them take themselves out for the betterment of the entire species... the court system in this country needs to stop wasting time and resources protecting idiots from themselves and punishing corporations because they didn't have the foresight to really just how dumb some people are.

This is not a situation where an otherwise harmless item is defective or contained a toxic material and needed to be recalled... it's a situation where some brainless little sack of crap bought a hot snake that he didn't know a damn thing about, probably telling Steve the whole time that he was experienced and had other hot snakes and didn't need to know anything about it's care and handling... then gets it home and freehandles it because he hasn't got the brains not to. While I'm glad his injuries weren't more severe in that it would have just been more problems for everyone involved, there's a part of me that really wishes he'd lost his damn arm just to teach him a lesson.

Modern parents won't let their kids make mistakes on their own. They seem to be denied the right to the learning process that normal human beings were allowed to go through and they haven't got any cuts, scrapes, bruises, stomach aches, headaches, torn clothing, wet shoes or concussions from falling out of trees... They have got this terrible undeserved sense of self righteous stupidity though. When they're finally allowed some kind of autonomy and do something dumb, rather than saying to themselves "Gee, that was no good I better not do it again." they look at everyone but themselves, searching for someone to blame. People have actually grown into adulthood with this kind of attitude and it sickens me to the core.

I really need to get myself a unibomber style shack someplace and just avoid the rest of humanity, for their own safety.
 
this is nothing even close to what your talking about. this kid bought the snake becuse he thought it was cool. and the seller did not seem to have a problem selling it to him. yeah he could of been telling the seller all day long he had tons of experiance with them but come on man how much experence can a 17 year old have with hot snakes. stop getting mad, this is exactly what should be happening. who in there right mind sells a snake like this to a teenager useing his moms credit card.
 
and wishing this kid should of lost his arm becuse he had a snake he should of never been alowd to purchase to begin with is pretty patheticly low.
 
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