Ken Harbart
New member
Unemployed, yet she's buying venomous snakes for her son. Then again, I wouldn't be especially surprised if I learned that this whole thing was the mother & son's plan all along.
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Please read: Pending Lawsuit from Venomous Snake Bite
- Thread starter SERPENTS DEN
- Start date
SERPENTS DEN
New member
Ken Harbart said:Unemployed, yet she's buying venomous snakes for her son. Then again, I wouldn't be especially surprised if I learned that this whole thing was the mother & son's plan all along.
Ken,
It sure does sound that way to me that this was not an accident but more of an incident especially when they were inquiring before-hand if it would kill him!
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 5:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: please read
i was wondering how venomous my atheris chlorechis like on a scale of 1 to 10 for it to kill me if i got but i promase i will not take any more chanced like that in my life i promase well you are the nicest herpetoloigst i have ever talked to you know your $hit man thanks again for everything and 1 more thing since i bought my bush viper a couple of months ago she hasend shed at all not even any signs for it but she eats and drinks she's verry healthy sorry to bother you soo much but i just trust your knowlage if you can write back a.s.a.p. i would highly appreate it thank you again for everything.......... sincerely,
From speaking to Lisa Drago’s attorney he (the attorney) told me he knows Lisa pretty well which leads me to believe Lisa has tried suing someone else before using his services.
psilocybe
Herp Nerd
Considering the facts, this would not suprise me at all. It's baffling to me that a mother would allow her son to risk his life to earn a few bucks, and ruin someone else's life in the process. Best of luck to you.
AP
SERPENTS DEN
New member
Two different stories
I find it kind of odd how only days after I started this thread the media was notified and there story changed.
I find it kind of odd how only days after I started this thread the media was notified and there story changed.
Mustangrde1
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Excuse me Pardon me Gray Poopon
Someone correct me if i read that wrong.
They had the snake for 7 months.
They used a polyvalent and A antivenom for Rattlesnakes most likely Corfab or the old wyeth.
That to me reads like they are mixing antivenoms.
Steve be glad you saved those e-mail you can definately i believe show the mother is fabricating things. When i feal better ill call you.
Someone correct me if i read that wrong.
They had the snake for 7 months.
They used a polyvalent and A antivenom for Rattlesnakes most likely Corfab or the old wyeth.
That to me reads like they are mixing antivenoms.
Steve be glad you saved those e-mail you can definately i believe show the mother is fabricating things. When i feal better ill call you.
Mustangrde1
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Ok i have to take this report apart partly because I am sick and board and partly because things are not sitting well with me.
I just can not help but wonder if he was doing exactly what he see's Steve do?
So 13 years keeping and working with reptiles and probably reading about them. I seriously doubt he would beleive Atheris to be safe animal. Next if the report is correct about the Coral { what the hell were teachers thinking. I seriously doubt that occured.
The guy had told me, if I had gotten bitten, nothing would happen. I would not even get sick. I would just have a little bit of pain, like a bee sting,’’ Vinny said.
Um and let us see here Steve's own E-mail said
On January 25, 2004 I received a phone call from the 17 year olds mother which concerned me very much. She told me her son has been free handling and kissing the snake on the lips. I asked her to return the snake to me for a full refund and not to allow her 17 year old to own any venomous. The parent ignored to accept the opportunity to return the snake and get a full refund.
On January 26th I received this e-mail from the 17 year old son.
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 5:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: please read
i was wondering how venomous my atheris chlorechis like on a scale of 1 to 10 for it to kill me if i got but i promase i will not take any more chanced like that in my life i promase well you are the nicest herpetoloigst i have ever talked to you know your $hit man thanks again for everything and 1 more thing since i bought my bush viper a couple of months ago she hasend shed at all not even any signs for it but she eats and drinks she's verry healthy sorry to bother you soo much but i just trust your knowlage if you can write back a.s.a.p. i would highly appreate it thank you again for everything.......... sincerely,
My Reply to the 17 year old on 1/26/04
On a scale of 1 to 10 I would guess at saying maybe a 3
As far as the snake not shedding, it will when it’s ready to, try feeding it more often.
Oh boy I think that no place did Steve state bee sting an in fact the boy said he would not take any more chances. Furthermore the Childs parent had been informed and given the oppurtunity to bring the animal back after she witnessed him performing dangerous acts.
On January 25, 2004 I received a phone call from the 17 year olds mother which concerned me very much. She told me her son has been free handling and kissing the snake on the lips. I asked her to return the snake to me for a full refund and not to allow her 17 year old to own any venomous. The parent ignored to accept the opportunity to return the snake and get a full refund.
Ok now who is not telling the truth for some strange reason im thinking mommy.
Ok so by her own admission she new it was venomous and allowed her son to keep it anyway.
7 MONTHS 7 for mom to ask around or do a web search or contact a zoo or other qualified institute.
There is no Pennsylvania law forbidding the sale of exotic venomous snakes, said Gary Davis, president and founder of the Northeast Pennsylvania Herpetological Society.
The only laws concern native species, he said. The state leaves it up to each municipality, he said.
Chad Peeling, operations manager for Reptiland on U.S. Route 15 in Allenwood, said a lot of towns have laws against keeping venomous snakes.
“The real problem is when people do foolish things. It’s hard to legislate against that,” he said. “In terms of legalities, there are no broad statewide or nationwide laws preventing people from keeping venomous snakes,” he said.
Foolish damn skippy. Mom lets child keep a snake freehandling it that she is very much aware is venomous.
Dr. Kevin Washington got on the phone with Lisa, and she gave him all the information she could.
While the Conestoga Ambulance crew was putting a tourniquet on Vinny’s arm to prevent the progression of the venom, the helicopter was landing across from their home deep in the country.
Washington was spending just a month at Harrisburg Hospital as part of his residency training. This was his first snake bite. Dr. Ward Donovan, head of the toxicology department, has dealt with snake bites but never one with no available antivenom, Washington said.
The next step was checking with poison centers throughout the country to find the best antivenom, Washington said.
He also searched the Internet for information. He and Donovan settled on a polyvalent (a mix of antivenoms that included antigens that work on snakes similar to the West African bush viper) from South Africa. But the choice was a gamble.
I am so curious if they even bothered to call Venom1 who would certainly be able to help. But the settled on a Polyvalent i wonder which one?
Meanwhile, the hospital staff was giving Vinny rattlesnake antivenom at around 3 a.m., hoping it might help while they waited for the antivenom from Philadelphia.
Were two diffrent types of AV given !!!???
Ok enough im getting really pissed thinking about this is possibly a set up bite for monetary compinsation. If you think it hasnt been done before ask Wal-Mart about pigmy rattlers in their garden department.
I just can not help but wonder if he was doing exactly what he see's Steve do?
So 13 years keeping and working with reptiles and probably reading about them. I seriously doubt he would beleive Atheris to be safe animal. Next if the report is correct about the Coral { what the hell were teachers thinking. I seriously doubt that occured.
The guy had told me, if I had gotten bitten, nothing would happen. I would not even get sick. I would just have a little bit of pain, like a bee sting,’’ Vinny said.
Um and let us see here Steve's own E-mail said
On January 25, 2004 I received a phone call from the 17 year olds mother which concerned me very much. She told me her son has been free handling and kissing the snake on the lips. I asked her to return the snake to me for a full refund and not to allow her 17 year old to own any venomous. The parent ignored to accept the opportunity to return the snake and get a full refund.
On January 26th I received this e-mail from the 17 year old son.
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 5:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: please read
i was wondering how venomous my atheris chlorechis like on a scale of 1 to 10 for it to kill me if i got but i promase i will not take any more chanced like that in my life i promase well you are the nicest herpetoloigst i have ever talked to you know your $hit man thanks again for everything and 1 more thing since i bought my bush viper a couple of months ago she hasend shed at all not even any signs for it but she eats and drinks she's verry healthy sorry to bother you soo much but i just trust your knowlage if you can write back a.s.a.p. i would highly appreate it thank you again for everything.......... sincerely,
My Reply to the 17 year old on 1/26/04
On a scale of 1 to 10 I would guess at saying maybe a 3
As far as the snake not shedding, it will when it’s ready to, try feeding it more often.
Oh boy I think that no place did Steve state bee sting an in fact the boy said he would not take any more chances. Furthermore the Childs parent had been informed and given the oppurtunity to bring the animal back after she witnessed him performing dangerous acts.
On January 25, 2004 I received a phone call from the 17 year olds mother which concerned me very much. She told me her son has been free handling and kissing the snake on the lips. I asked her to return the snake to me for a full refund and not to allow her 17 year old to own any venomous. The parent ignored to accept the opportunity to return the snake and get a full refund.
Ok now who is not telling the truth for some strange reason im thinking mommy.
Ok so by her own admission she new it was venomous and allowed her son to keep it anyway.
7 MONTHS 7 for mom to ask around or do a web search or contact a zoo or other qualified institute.
There is no Pennsylvania law forbidding the sale of exotic venomous snakes, said Gary Davis, president and founder of the Northeast Pennsylvania Herpetological Society.
The only laws concern native species, he said. The state leaves it up to each municipality, he said.
Chad Peeling, operations manager for Reptiland on U.S. Route 15 in Allenwood, said a lot of towns have laws against keeping venomous snakes.
“The real problem is when people do foolish things. It’s hard to legislate against that,” he said. “In terms of legalities, there are no broad statewide or nationwide laws preventing people from keeping venomous snakes,” he said.
Foolish damn skippy. Mom lets child keep a snake freehandling it that she is very much aware is venomous.
Dr. Kevin Washington got on the phone with Lisa, and she gave him all the information she could.
While the Conestoga Ambulance crew was putting a tourniquet on Vinny’s arm to prevent the progression of the venom, the helicopter was landing across from their home deep in the country.
Washington was spending just a month at Harrisburg Hospital as part of his residency training. This was his first snake bite. Dr. Ward Donovan, head of the toxicology department, has dealt with snake bites but never one with no available antivenom, Washington said.
The next step was checking with poison centers throughout the country to find the best antivenom, Washington said.
He also searched the Internet for information. He and Donovan settled on a polyvalent (a mix of antivenoms that included antigens that work on snakes similar to the West African bush viper) from South Africa. But the choice was a gamble.
I am so curious if they even bothered to call Venom1 who would certainly be able to help. But the settled on a Polyvalent i wonder which one?
Meanwhile, the hospital staff was giving Vinny rattlesnake antivenom at around 3 a.m., hoping it might help while they waited for the antivenom from Philadelphia.
Were two diffrent types of AV given !!!???
Ok enough im getting really pissed thinking about this is possibly a set up bite for monetary compinsation. If you think it hasnt been done before ask Wal-Mart about pigmy rattlers in their garden department.
Vince
New member
Mustangrde1 said:
I dont think those email would hold up in a court situation, im not saying they are but emails can be easy fabricated
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
Look out Perry Mason, Vince has been watching old episodes of Law and Order and there's a new legal genius in town.
ms_terese
Irrelevant User
You know, Vinny, you're correct: emails can be fabricated. Of course, so can phone calls. So if you go by facts alone, here is what we get:
Retailer makes a legal sale of a venomous snake to 17 year old.
Venomous snake bites 17 year old.
Owwie!
Stupid, yes. Illegal, no.
Of course, there are many other details that play into this story. However, I fear that posting them here will only give the plaintiff time to come up with excuses.
My advice to the seller: GET A GOOD LAWYER QUICK!
Retailer makes a legal sale of a venomous snake to 17 year old.
Venomous snake bites 17 year old.
Owwie!
Stupid, yes. Illegal, no.
Of course, there are many other details that play into this story. However, I fear that posting them here will only give the plaintiff time to come up with excuses.
My advice to the seller: GET A GOOD LAWYER QUICK!
Vince
New member
who is barry masion? is that the kid who got bit by the snake, or something off topic?
Vince
New member
what are they actualy sueing over? injury? negligence?
i guess it was within in the law but a bad judgment call by the seller.
i guess it was within in the law but a bad judgment call by the seller.
Vince
New member
Re: Mother
its funny how you readily post this stuff and delete your own old posts witch make you out to look bad. I wonder how much this will cost you even if you lawyer fees are going to be pretty high. You should file a counter suit because if you win the original case you can sue the mother for all the bad publicity you and your business went threw because of her son.
serpentsden said:
its funny how you readily post this stuff and delete your own old posts witch make you out to look bad. I wonder how much this will cost you even if you lawyer fees are going to be pretty high. You should file a counter suit because if you win the original case you can sue the mother for all the bad publicity you and your business went threw because of her son.
Mustangrde1
Sistrurus Motel "Welcome"
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Errr actually even though e-mail can be altered. If the ones Steve Posted are correct it would be easy to prove that they were sent from the childs home computer and his.
As he posted them in here before the news report my money is on they are real. I still think someone is trying to milk some money though.
Steve that agency we talked about. You may want to call them could be very interesting.
As he posted them in here before the news report my money is on they are real. I still think someone is trying to milk some money though.
Steve that agency we talked about. You may want to call them could be very interesting.
Cruciform
New member
email
Gather every piece of email correspondence from the mother and son.
Back them up, and print hard copies with headers included. Below is an example of the headers in the email I received from the forum when new posts were made. You want ALL the header information not just the TO: and FROM:
Provide this info to your lawyer. They will contact the internet providers and request email server logs if they're available. Even knowing the date and time the email was sent, and the IP it was sent from in the headers will strengthen the case. If they retain their logs long enough, you may be able to find exact records of the email transactions between servers. Most ISPs dump the logs after a short period of time because of space issues but you may get lucky.
Since the mother and son probably haven't thought their whole scam through, the original email may still be on their computers as well. Make sure your lawyer and the investigating officers are aware of this as well.
Properly presented, email is VERY compelling evidence.
SAMPLE HEADER BEGINS
-------------------------------
From - Wed Mar 31 17:33:34 2004
X-UIDL: f245586a4b47fa85b0103f7c795c56f6
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Original-To: [email protected]
Delivered-To: [email protected]
Received: from localhost (mx2.crosswinds.net [216.18.117.46])
by maildrop.crosswinds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F0512D
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:24:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mx2.crosswinds.net ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (mx2.crosswinds.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id 51927-13 for <[email protected]>;
Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:24:00 -0500 (EST)
Received: from home.fdns01.com (home.fdns01.com [63.247.72.226])
by mx2.crosswinds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070E2B4002
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:24:00 -0500 (EST)
Received: from nobody by home.fdns01.com with local (Exim 4.24)
id 1B8o7L-0000fz-NB
for [email protected]; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:23:27 -0500
To: [email protected]
Subject: Reply to post 'Please read: Pending Lawsuit from Venomous Snake Bite'
From: " FaunaClassifieds Forums Mailer" <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:23:27 -0500
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - home.fdns01.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - crosswinds.net
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [99 99] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - faunaclassifieds.com
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at crosswinds.net
Gather every piece of email correspondence from the mother and son.
Back them up, and print hard copies with headers included. Below is an example of the headers in the email I received from the forum when new posts were made. You want ALL the header information not just the TO: and FROM:
Provide this info to your lawyer. They will contact the internet providers and request email server logs if they're available. Even knowing the date and time the email was sent, and the IP it was sent from in the headers will strengthen the case. If they retain their logs long enough, you may be able to find exact records of the email transactions between servers. Most ISPs dump the logs after a short period of time because of space issues but you may get lucky.
Since the mother and son probably haven't thought their whole scam through, the original email may still be on their computers as well. Make sure your lawyer and the investigating officers are aware of this as well.
Properly presented, email is VERY compelling evidence.
SAMPLE HEADER BEGINS
-------------------------------
From - Wed Mar 31 17:33:34 2004
X-UIDL: f245586a4b47fa85b0103f7c795c56f6
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Original-To: [email protected]
Delivered-To: [email protected]
Received: from localhost (mx2.crosswinds.net [216.18.117.46])
by maildrop.crosswinds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F0512D
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:24:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mx2.crosswinds.net ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (mx2.crosswinds.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id 51927-13 for <[email protected]>;
Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:24:00 -0500 (EST)
Received: from home.fdns01.com (home.fdns01.com [63.247.72.226])
by mx2.crosswinds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070E2B4002
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:24:00 -0500 (EST)
Received: from nobody by home.fdns01.com with local (Exim 4.24)
id 1B8o7L-0000fz-NB
for [email protected]; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:23:27 -0500
To: [email protected]
Subject: Reply to post 'Please read: Pending Lawsuit from Venomous Snake Bite'
From: " FaunaClassifieds Forums Mailer" <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:23:27 -0500
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - home.fdns01.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - crosswinds.net
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [99 99] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - faunaclassifieds.com
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at crosswinds.net
Hammer
New member
Looks can be decieving...
There is a lot of speculation based on hearsay. First, there is no notice of a pending lawsuit. There is no proof that a bite actually happened. There is no proof that the Atheris purchased at the store was the snake that bit the boy, if he was bitten at all. He could have been bitten by a spider and claimed it was the atheris. Futher, there is no proof that if it was an atheris, it was the atheris sold by Steve at the store. The doctors seem very incompetent when it comes to envenomation, so any evidence based on forensic pathology is probably lost.
Other questions rise out of this... Do the State, county or local laws strictly and explicitly state that venomous animals can not be sold to minors? Can it be proven that a sale like that was illegal?
Also, it's generally considered improper for an attorney to contact the defendant directly. Usually there's written notice and then the two lawyers talk. And if a law was broken to the degree everyone is concerned with here, then the State would prosecute this case in the criminal courts. For the "kid" to have a lawyer call and threaten a suit in civil court without a criminal conviction seems like a bluff to me. Either no law was broken or no one can prove who or what bit the kid.
I think a defense lawyer could jam this down the prosecutor's throat and get it thrown out of court.
There is a lot of speculation based on hearsay. First, there is no notice of a pending lawsuit. There is no proof that a bite actually happened. There is no proof that the Atheris purchased at the store was the snake that bit the boy, if he was bitten at all. He could have been bitten by a spider and claimed it was the atheris. Futher, there is no proof that if it was an atheris, it was the atheris sold by Steve at the store. The doctors seem very incompetent when it comes to envenomation, so any evidence based on forensic pathology is probably lost.
Other questions rise out of this... Do the State, county or local laws strictly and explicitly state that venomous animals can not be sold to minors? Can it be proven that a sale like that was illegal?
Also, it's generally considered improper for an attorney to contact the defendant directly. Usually there's written notice and then the two lawyers talk. And if a law was broken to the degree everyone is concerned with here, then the State would prosecute this case in the criminal courts. For the "kid" to have a lawyer call and threaten a suit in civil court without a criminal conviction seems like a bluff to me. Either no law was broken or no one can prove who or what bit the kid.
I think a defense lawyer could jam this down the prosecutor's throat and get it thrown out of court.
Hammer
New member
Quick comment on the Internet provider...It's not that easy to get the history. First, you have to convince the court that the information is so material to the case that it can alter the outcome of the case. Then "if" you get a subpoena, it's only good in the state that the court is in. Most providers are not in the state and even if you try to subpoena the local office, they may not have privy to the history and defer it to the main provider, out of state. Your hope is that they will cooperate with an out of state subpoena, but as a business, they'll prefer to stay out of it and protect the privacy of their customers. And I'm talking about a criminal proceeding! When it comes to a tortious action, the difficulty will be compounded.
Just discovered this 1 1/2 year old thread, that doesn't really end with any resolution. Anyone got an update on how this all played out?
Old Thread Left hanging: How did it play out?
Just discovered this 1 1/2 year old thread, that doesn't really end with any resolution. Anyone got an update on how this all played out?
Just discovered this 1 1/2 year old thread, that doesn't really end with any resolution. Anyone got an update on how this all played out?
psilocybe
Herp Nerd
jsrocket said:
Don't know what happened with the lawsuit (but Serpent's Den does still sell venomous), but the kid recovered and is apparently still keeping hots (he posts on a few forums irregularly).
C
Chris@TSE
Guest
yeah what happened with this?