Please read ref: delivery Guarantees

[DThomas]

the box was tight to avoid the animal thrashing around .
thanks
kim

The only problem with that is all the impacts to the box will also directly impact the animal. A little bit larger box next time with some styrofoam insulation will not only insulate the animal from temperature extremes but impacts as well. You can add newspaper to fill the rest of the voids to prevent any thrashing. The problem with using newspaper only is it will move around during transit and won't protect the animal from impacts.

 

[Greg Riso]

Box Looks Abused

In Kim's defense I know she wouldn't knowingly ship and subject an animal to any danger. I've never had any problems receiving from her before. In fact I had a package arrive three days late she shipped to me a few weeks ago via Airborne and the animal arrived fine. In the time it took to be delivered in this particular case that box may have traveled to god knows where and may have had heavy boxes stacked on top of it causing the damage. Heck, I received a model 421D Boaphile cage wrapped thoroughly in bubble pack whose box looked like it was thrown off the back of a truck more than once.
I think she went further than most people would go by agreeing to reimburse the cost of the animal and half the shipping. Most people would totally walk away from a situation like this but she didn't. The animal was delivered way later than anticipated and that was totally out of her control. How many people here guarantee an animal's live arrival under these circumstances? The animal actually did arrive alive and even though it died later on Kim's still willing to make good on it plus half the shipping charge to boot. I do think a stryrofoam liner would have helped the structural rigidity and integrity of the cardboard somewhat and may have helped delay temperature extremes for short durations but not for days on end. Kim, I'd recommend a styro lined box with all future shipments but applaud you for standing behind this situation in the manner that you have. I'm currently awaiting three adult animals with a total value of about $2,200 from Kim and have complete confidence in her getting them to me safely as she's always done before.

 

[Seamus Haley]

For the moment, I'm going to ignore the fact that we know it was Kim who sent the package and just respond to the original post...

The guarantees of anyone else have no impact on your dealing with any given individual, the only terms and conditions which apply are those which were agreed to with the other party at the time of the completion of the transaction... Asking for other people's guarantees is pretty meaningless and I got a sense... it wasn't stated outright, but I got a sense... that you were going to take those other written policies and throw them back in the (at that point unnamed) seller's face.

If you agree to a set of terms, regardless of how crappy they are, then those are the terms which apply, end of story. There are situations where a dealer *should* bend their own rules, but there are no situations where they can be forced to do so.

Did you get it in writing beforehand that there would be sytrofoam?

Did you get it in writing that delivery was guaranteed by a certain time?

Did the seller state that they accept responsibility for carrier mishandling?

Did the seller tell you that you had a one week guarantee or was it simply live arrival or twenty four hours? As a followup, did you voice any problems with the animal within the guarantee period or did you wait until after the time and animal had expired?

If a seller has terms that say "No live arrival guaranteed, no refunds on shipping, I'm putting your animals in a padded envelope and sending them USPS ground service" and you continue with the transaction- it's YOUR fault if something goes wrong. I can't buy an animal from Rob Trenor, have a problem (not likely to happen but hey, it's an example) and then try to tell him he owes me something because Ritchie Luna's guarantee and terms would have covered it.

 

[herpetological]

I'd have to agree with Seamus on that point. read the sellers policies and if uncomfortable with them do not order. The company has to stick by the "wriiten" gurantee although many will go further as Kim did. Thanks Ray HBR

 

[herpetological]

Kim I just got some inside info that you may want to make people aware of..... Please correct me if i'm wrong. I was told the snake did not die until 4 days after arrival and that it arrived healthy and alive even after the delay? Also, no vet report or pictures have been made available for proof? Did the customer contact you on arrival that there were any problems? Just trying to be fair. Thanks Ray G. HBR

 

[kim felts]

ok fair enough. next time when shipping large animals i will make sure to include the styraphoam. i didnt realize that it would help in insulating the box being tossed around in the way that i should have. i rarely ship animals of that size and dont have the experience of others . i certainly do care though what happens to anything thing i ship. at the time that box went out it was very close to the timeframe that my father had died and im sure and also it was pointed out by a dear and beloved friend that some of my judgement was somewhat impaired.
i tried to put in my ads why i was selling most of my snakes in hopes that whomever i was going to be dealing with would take into consideration my mind set..in retrospect i should have simply halted all sales ..being me i was determined to carry on and be strong and that was yet another mistake.
there were no prediscussed terms on this deal and my terms are very liberal. i certainly dont want to come off on here as any sort of a victum or am not searching for any pity in regards to my actions and why it happened. i simply did what i thought would work and perhaps it didnt..the death of the snake and the reason for it was never determined in any way other then speculation and i was the first to assume it was all my fault and felt very bad..the poor animal dying was in itself enough to make me feel terrible adding to that it could have been my fault and voila..yikes it was a terrible situation. i get shipping boxes from daniel at scales and sadly this snake didnt fit any of them - thats where my own construction skills..duh..i have none came into play.
as far as mel using terms..when we were discussing my terms and what i felt fair he didnt agree. i asked him to show me terms where the norm was that sellers took responsibilty beyond what i had so i could rethink my position incase i was wrong and didnt realize it and he chose to post on here after sending me neils terms and that of another person that doesnt come to mind at this time.
anyhow..thats how we got here..he was searching for opinions to back his case.. im happy to learn as to avoid anything like this again and appreciate all the input because i surely dont ever want to be the cause of any living beings death if i can avoid it.
so to review..no more shipping ANYTHING without insulation.
i just received an email from mel with airbornes policy to refund all shipping costs if boxes dont meet requested delivery so i guess that fixes the half or whole shipping monies back too.
hey..what more could we ask for?

best wishes
kim


ps..again..thanks for any and all input

 

[kim felts]

yes..the snake arrived alive and i was not informed there were any health problems..
he mentioned scars on her tail which i thought i had told him and they were old from being fed live at some previous time in her life.
he mentioned her large size and that he liked it and also he felt the box was small for shipping..then on the following friday that she had perished..i took his word for it and believe she died.
why would i question it? i felt we were friends from tons of emails and nice conversations and had no reason to believe otherwise and still believe she has perished but have no proof of it.
he mentioned he could not afford a vet report and i answered it was not necessary as it would probably cost more then the snake did for him. also he said his freezer wasent big enough to hold her which i also believe as she was very large.
but to conclude she arrived monday..died friday i think..if not it was saturday but im pretty sure he said friday.
that was all word of mouth with no proof other then i believe this man to be honest or did when it was told me..i have no reason to believe otherwise..
when explaining this situation to a person this am he called me a doormat but honestly i do try and be the best i can and hope that its ok to take people at face value especially when i have had so many conversations with them and think of them as my friend.
i was though a little surprised when all of this went spiralling out of control into posts as this nature ie ill tell you the story when i get my money back ..or whatever he said because truely i didnt think i had done anything wrong that i was aware of.
if i did i would surely take responsibility as its not my thing to do anything else..geez..im come here to learn....

kim

 

[Clay Davenport]

Just a few words on the box and packing methods.
Judging by the crease in the front corner of the box in the first picture posted, this box was partially crushed from above. This is not surprising really, shipping companies have far less respect for our packages than we often like to believe.
A shipping box can hold up to a fair amount of vertical pressure, most are rated for 200 pounds or so. This is only true for boxes in new condition though. Consider the size of the snake. An 8 foot snake is a pretty strong animal, and can easily bulge the sizes out on that box by pressing against two opposing walls. If the walls were pushed outward a little by the snake, it would drastically reduce the amount of weight it could hold up.
Styrofoam lining however, basically takes that 1/8" cardboard box and makes it far thicker and stronger. I use 3/4" blueboard to line my shipping boxes, and a finished box can take a considerable amount of vertical pressure.
Just for those who may not be familiar with lining boxes, here's a couple of pics of my method.

I interlock the side pieces for the most strength, and the sides are sandwiched between the top and bottom pieces. With plenty of padding inside, the animal is protected to the fullest degree I can provide.

As to what the cause of death would be in this case we can't be sure. It may have been the temperature, but it could also have been a result of rough treatment during transit. Newspaper and 1/8" cardboard isn't much cushion if the box is tossed off the back of the truck at one of the hubs, and anyone who knows someone working in these warehouses knows there's alot of tossing going on there getting the boxes routed.

I only have one other comment and I'll stop. Greg asked:

The animal was delivered way later than anticipated and that was totally out of her control. How many people here guarantee an animal's live arrival under these circumstances?

I would and do guarantee live arrival including carrier delays. It is my opinion that if a shipper such as myself only offers service through the overnight carriers then it is their obligation to accept the risks associated with that method. I realize many people use this as an easy way out of taking responsibility, but unless the shipper offers the choice of sending the animal Delta Dash, I simply cannot see any grounds for denying responsibility if the package is late.
Overnight carriers guarantee on time delivery or shipping is refunded. They do not guarantee any contents, whether live animals or frozen meat, and will not reimburse for that, especially not live animals.
Even though many do it, it is simply not justified to lay this risk on the buyer, if the only option you give them is to receive the animal through an overnight carrier. If the shipper offered to send the package via Delta, and the buyer refused, requesting the overnight carrier, then the shipper is free to lay that risk on the buyer, it was their choice. Otherwise, I believe the shipper has to accept responsibility for the method he chooses to provide.

 

[Razor Reptiles]

Whoa! Whoa!

Whoa! There were no pre-discussed terms? That's not good. And none are posted on Kim's site... Since the animal arrived okay, despite the problems with shipping, Kim's responsibility absolutely ends there... regardless of what our collective terms pages state. Anything she offers thereafter, is out of the goodness of her heart and perhaps to save face. Okay, maybe she owes shipping charges.
Stop. Let's just back up the truck here... No proof... No death... No refund. I don't care if Mel is your big brother, always request proof. The idea of no necropsy performed might not have been the best decision either. It shows that you were going to give a refund no matter what the cause of death.
The customer's statement of the snake being "fine" may have just been enthusiasm of seeing it alive but, constitutes a happy end to your deal. Then the boa dies 4 days afterwards, more than a full week after leaving your facility? Wow... Sorry for jumping to conclusions (I try to keep an open mind about these things) but, I was under the assumption that this animal died directly after arriving.
I'm up in the air about this situation... I can only tell you what I would do... and ONLY after seeing proof of this animal's demise. I'd also like to hear this story in it's entirety.
About the scarring on this animal... I seem to remember that being stated in one of your ads.
Btw, not to be a PITA but, the only thing on your terms page is that you ship in an insulated box.

That's all for now,
Ray Martin

 

[REDDAWG43]

I did not want to post the senders name because of this, I discussed the way the snake was shipped with Kim.... And felt that was it. I was going to tell my side of the full story once the deal was said and done, because I did not want post it without telling Kim about this thread. I wanted to have her be able to post her said of the story. Right now what I was looking for were opinions on the situation, and other shipping terms. I did have many emails and nice conversations with Kim.
I do consider Kim a friend, we are just having a problem to work out. And yes that's were these Postings started from, in order to get different outside opinions on the matter. I am not herper with 10 years of experience of shipping and dealing with problems. So I wanted outside opinions of people who actually have years of dealing with these situations. I am/was arguing the shipping cost situation with Kim. Right now, I don't want to argue it anymore.
Kim has done NOTHING WRONG. She has her opinion and version, and so do I... Now all we have to do is work it out. To be honest at this point I want to just end this ASAP, I do not want to end up with Kim hating me (if you already don't...Kim)...I was just voicing my disagreement.
The snake arrived Monday, and yes it was alive. Kim correct if I am wrong. We discussed her box size being way too small, and how cold she was, so with that discussed, I thought that was as far as that should go. Tuesday we spoke and I told Kim about the open mouth breathing, and the mucus in her mouth...typically showing signs of an upper resp. infection. I was supposed to get Baytril for her from Kim but by that time she had died. The snake did die between the hours of Thursday 12 am (last I saw her, before going to work) and Friday 6 am (when I got home from work) She was in a 6 ft vision cage, on newspaper, with water, and a heat lamp. I feel that the delay in shipping, the very cool temp and the lack of impact absorption material in the box resulted in the snakes death. I tell you the snake did not show any signs or symptoms that it was sick, that's why the sudden death was a shock to me.
As for the shipping terms, I did not think I'd have a problem since on Fauna no one ever mentioned having a problem with Kims shipping practices, I did look around before I decided to do business with her. I did not start an inquiry thread because all the other threads on her were positive. But now I will request some written shipping terms in full detail on Future transactions.
As Kim mentioned I felt (still feel) we were friends, so I did not think I would have a problem letting her know about the snake dying. I have not screwed anyone over any animals, and I was not going to start with Kim. I did not take any pics, thinking I would not have a problem having to prove her death...major screw up, I know.

 

[kim felts]

okay..let see since im so wordy how to make this short and simple.
i had a female pink boa that was gorgeous for sale.
i had bought that female from kolleen jenks incase anyone wants to verify that snake a while back. i cant even remember the offered price i listed but it was less then what i paid.
i had to sell most of my snakes because my father was so sick at the time and i needed to reduce my stock fast and big time to come and take care of my also very ill mother who has cancer.
anyhow..mel wanted that pink female..whilst we chatted i also offered this big female since he needed breeders and i had her still with me.
anyhow..both snakes shipped were 450.00 express delivery airborne ..the only way i ever ship..the deal was that i could buy them back hopefully next year or before next breeding season..these were my babies i had kept for myself for future use and had to reluctantly sell.
anyhow..my father died on monday aug11..on saturday i come home and find the gorgeous pink female dead in her rack.
i come to find the heating unit rheostat thing had failed on the rack and i had not noticied as i had not had time too look..it was a horrible time for me..my father was very healthy eight weeks prior to his death. we had just managed after being told a year ago my mother had only one month to live to get her out of bed and wham he was dead.
anyhow..now i wrote mel to give him the horrible news and ask if he still wants the big female and he says yes..
finally we get to shipping sometime later after other dramas in our lives..probably mostly my life.. transpire..
this snake lived in a completely different place in my house in a tank versus a rack with under and overhead heating so she had not been exposed to the coldness of the dead snake..
i pack her up and ship her off..she arrives the following monday after leaving on thursday..i believe when he tells me she is big..fine and what about the scars explained in another post and by friday she is dead..he then tells me he cant afford vet check on it and has no place to store her dead body and i respond that its probably just as well as i surely could do little about it.
i offer to refund but need to make payments or if he can wait until i get my next check which is always no more then two weeks away at the very most and he tells me that he needs a snake ..i owe him a snake..he doesnt want a refund and what am i going to do about it so i turn to ritchie luna who has a couple of my snakes at his place..ritchie claims he has one that should fit the bill and mel wants it shipped by today..i state thats not a good idea since we had that problem with shipping on a thursday beforehand it has to wait till next monday ..mel says forget it he needs all the money including the shipping now paypal..i dont use paypal - i can send a check and i still pled my case about half shipping charge etc and here we are.
that was what happened to the best of my recollection. im sure i left out a few details hopefully none that offend mel and if so it was an oversight but im trying to get the juist of it out.
forgive me if i forgot something.
the reason i did not have the cash immediately onhand was that i was under the impression from the monday night i had heard from mel the deal was done and it was ok - the money was mine to spend..it wasent until that friday i heard otherwise.
so again to verify mel wanted the snake that richie had for breeding at his place but since i didnt feel it a great idea to ship today it seems this thread got started and here we are.

thanks for taking the time to read this and give thoughts
kim

 

[kim felts]

oh..thats true about the baytril..i did offer to send that over but i dont remember what day exactly we got into that..
it seems it was a couple of days later mel said she had a minor resp infection we both figured from the shipping and baytril around would not be a bad idea..
i wasent charging for it or the shipping of it i figured it was my duty as co parent of this animal with mel to get it too him.
after reading mels last post it seems we are on the same page..lmao and perhaps starting too seem there is no point to this..im not exactly sure what the story mel was going to tell you all later was about me..i feel sort of bad he said that since i have no idea if he still seems to think i did something wrong or ???
this confuses me and worries me as i have no idea what he is talking about and surely need no surprise attacks at this point in life..
if i did manage to screw something up other then the box i used and no stryaphoam as my website promised i hope mel doesnt feel he has to wait for me to send his money to let me know.
i am not vindictive and i think it would be totally uncool to withhold funds because someone is afraid of me somehow or ???
did i ever imply i was going to punish you for some reason mel or ???where did that come from?

 

[Adam Block]

NEVER SHIP ON THURSDAY!! If there's an error, you are screwed!!

I only shipped on Tues and Wends. Always one of three ways:

1) Double boxed if the weather was just right on both ends.

2) In a styro lined box that was custom made and could hold my weight.

3) Last year 99% of my shipments went out in a cooler. For $6-$9 it's a good way to ship and well worth the few bucks if the snakes will fit.

My guarantee was to the end of my driveway. I don't care if you had your brother, fedex or santa clause pick the snake up that's as far as it went. If you wanted live insurance I charged for it, and never once had somebody take me up on that. On the other hand.

1000+ Snakes shipped and NOT ONE DEAD SNAKE!!

I did much testing on box temps overnight and things like that. I packed for them to make it two days in the box. If I was worried I would only offer shipping if held at FedEx location.

Oh and PS!! THAT WAS THE WORST PACKING/SHIPPING I'VE EVER SEEN!!! Forget the value of the snake, whomever packed that animal should be taken out back with a belt. Kim, come on, you should have just shot the thing it would have been faster and nicer!

 

[kim felts]

lmao adam..your funny..a belt?
thats abuse you know. since when did two wrongs make a right?
what i didnt understand was..you have a guarantee as long as the driveway and even if santa picked it up thats as far as it went??
meaning? you take it and its yours or ???
that confused me..

 

[Adam Block]

Hey, some people would be happy to get taken out back with a belt

The end of my driveway means I will give you a healthy happy snake that will be alive and feeding, no mites, no ticks, protizoa or anything like that. And I will give it to whomever you want me to be it fexex, a friend, yourself or whomever. What happens from there is out of my hands.

I don't guarantee ANY snakes after they leave my hands. Delta however does so if you need that guarantee don't be cheap and pay for Delta shipping.

When I stopped shipping Delta I started to offer a live arive guarantee for a 12% upcharge, never had somebody use it and never had a snake die.

One thing I did offer however was at least a 6 month promise you'd be happy with the snake. If at ANY time in the first 6 months (+/- 3 months) you weren't I would buy the snake back. Never had anybody take me up on that either.

A lot has come into question about me, however, my animals never really have. With over 1000 snakes that I produced I can only think of troubles I had with two for one reason or another. And that never had anything to do with shipping.