points for telling the truth????

[coyote]

Rich,

clap, clap, clap, APPLAUSE!

 

[WebSlave]

Join the ranks of the confused. Only really safe thing seems to be to not post at all...

I'm still hunting for those rules about what's not allowed in our signatures.

You can't have looked too hard for it. It's right in the announcement section that is at the top of EVERY forum on this site. If that failed to catch your attention, it is listed in a thread at the top of the BOI.

 

[nicolai]

wow!!!!

It never ceases to amaze me how people can look so cockeyed (no offense, Nicolai, as this is directed at EVERYONE at large) at such a simple concept. Here, let me spell it out in as simple terms as I can:

The name calling, profanity (even thinly veiled), derogatory comments, malicious antagonism and belligerent attitudes that some people have towards their "target of the day" will cease on this site.

So what does that mean? Well, the BOI will still work just fine if people cut out the crap and get down to the bare bones of what needs to be done. If anyone cannot figure out how to interrogate a suspected bad guy without resorting to the above garbage, then yes, they will be gone. If someone isn't smart enough to know how to ask questions, even persistently until they get answers without using derogatory names or insinuations, then they will be gone. Pretend you are an attorney in a court room. Does that kind of garbage help or hinder your ultimate goal when questioning the witness? Do you think someone's lack of language skills help at all in ANY circumstances? What does calling someone an "idiot" do for the thread itself? What does attacking other members taking part in the discussion, regardless of their direct involvement, do in relation to the goal of the thread itself? It's time to get the smokescreens out of the threads that some people will throw up around them and dig down to where the fire really is. Let the other guy make an ass out of himself. If only one person is doing that, it is pretty obvious what is going on without YOU jumping in there, acting the same, and confusing the readers about who the bad guy really is in the thread.

What I am requiring people to do is to act like mature, intelligent, and perceptive adults in their conversations here. I have no more tolerance for the people who act like they just rolled out of the hills and can't put a single sentence together cohesively without attacking someone. I have no more patience for people who think if they yell louder, attack anybody and everybody, and generally have nothing substantive to add to a discussion that they will drown out everyone and win by default. No, the BOI is not going to get "bad guy friendly" at all. I just expect the quality of the way the supposed "good guys" present themselves and try to get to the bottom of a "he said, she said" controversy to increase dramatically and notably.

Does anyone here NOT think they are up to the challenge? Does anyone here really believe they cannot engage in a discussion, even a heated one, without resorting to emotional outbursts that do nothing but drive the thread further away from really getting to the truth of the matter? If you don't think you can do it that way, then no, the BOI is not going to be a comfortable place for you to hang out. The rest of this site will likely be even less so, because if I am trying to reduce the antagonism and invective that has been rampant in the BOI, my intention is to ELIMINATE it completely within the rest of this site.

Incidents of members attacking other members for nothing other then a different in beliefs is going to end. People following others around because of a slight somewhere at sometime in the past and harassing their every post will definitely end one way or another. People whose apparent purpose here is to nothing more then to cause strive and conflict by their own actions will have short lived tenures here.

This is not a far swing to the side of peaches and cream at all. It is a move towards the middle of the pendulum swing where we can all get down to business where business is needed, and fun and information where that is appropriate, without the garbage that some people have come to be known as their stock in trade.

I guess the best rule of thumb you can go by is to read your post before you click the "Submit Reply" button and think about how YOU would feel about that post if it were directed at you. Does it offend you? Is it harsh to the point of being derogatory? Does it belittle you? Does it make you angry enough that you want to reply in like kind with the same sort of language? Does it not do anything at all in that thread that any reasonable and prudent person would consider an addition of value to this site?

If yes, then I strongly suggest that you take the time to work on that message before submitting it. I strongly suggest that you control your temper, become thoughtful in how you post, and consider how you can make YOUR image look a lot better by being the one on the high road with your words rather then lowering yourself into the gutter by the ill conceived words you choose.

If no one has noticed how many people who have had their reputations completely trashed by simply the manner in which they posted, then you just have not been paying attention at all. YOU are what YOU post here. It is MY goal to raise the level across the board of what the BOI, and this site in general, is going to mean to casual observers who see what YOU are posting here. And I SERIOUSLY aim to do just that.

That was the most intellegent well thought out post i have ever seen you make, and i think the way you stated it makes it perfectly clear. I will do as you suggest and read all my post as if they were aimed at me and decide if they are appropriate. Thank you for taking the time to answer me rich. I would give you positive karma for your post but I see you have enough already!!!

Dennis, my post wasnt aimed at you personally. it was posted as a need to find out where we stand in the grand scale of things when we post. I as well think your posting lately has greatly improved and hope it will continue as such. we are all here to help others improve what they do and to encourage them to change thier ways for the better. No one wants to see anyone thrown to the dogs until they prove they are incapable or unwilling to ever change. You are proving by your recent posting that you are indeed willing to change and i congratulate you on your efforts.




The rider we seek is always around...not always seen...but his deeds well known and profound.. will we ever know...just who this masked man is... who always seems to save us from the abyss..

 

[nicolai]

dennis1...

I think that the negative rep points/Karma you just gave me were completely uncalled for!!!! I never mentioned your name or said anything bad. I was asking a question of the Mods and rich. I think this is abuse of the karma system to use it for vendettas just for the sake of it. Karma is used for rating a persons posts and the quality of such. I was only asking a question!!!


P.S. i will not give you bad karma points in retaliation as i am going to follow the rules as rich has laid out. Me giving you Bad karma in retaliation for this would also be a violation of the karma point system which rich has asked us very kindly not to abuse.

 

[nicolai]

This is for you rich..

I think this sums up what you are trying to get accross to everyone!!!!


Attitude:

The longer i live the more i realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude is more important then facts. It is more important then the past, then education, then money, then circumstances, then failures, then successes,then what other people think or say or do. It is more important then appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company, a church or a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day reguarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We can not change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me, and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you...We are the ones in charge of our Attitudes.

by: Charles Swindoll

I wonder if all of us on fauna could live by that????

 

[leaftail]

You can't have looked too hard for it. It's right in the announcement section that is at the top of EVERY forum on this site. If that failed to catch your attention, it is listed in a thread at the top of the BOI.

Ah. Found it, thanks. See, I don't access the forum that way and have never seen that Announcement link. But thank you for wording your help in such a way that I only feel a little bit stupid.

 

[Dennis1]

Now I am really confused. I like many other people are trying to follow the rules the best we can. I see now that members are given warning points for calling a known troll a "troll". This person was warned four times for trolling and also suspended for it two times for it which makes him a habitual offender, so in other words he was tried and convicted for his deeds right. In society when a felon is released from prison he is refered to as a "convicted Felon" and must forever wear that badge of dishonor for his deeds. We have the same thing here. A man was warned then convicted and sentenced (fined and suspended) twice for his deeds. Now is it wrong to call him a troll?? Doesnt he get the same dishonor of carrying the the recognition of such for being sentenced for that very crime. I left out all names and references to any members or people in general, all references above are the truth not conjecture, these are questions for the aministration not accusations or insults as I dont wish to recieve any warning points for not following the rules, but rather would like to know from either Rich or the MODS as to what is the politically correct term to use on fauna now for someone that has been labeled as a troll, found guilty and sentenced for the offense on the site. I have memorized the warning list as it is laid out here>>>>

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/warn.php?

And no where on there does it say there is a warning or anything for calling somebody what a MOD has already called them and convicted them of being. Can we not call bad guys what they are "bad guys"???, can we not call a scammer a "scammer", can we not call a troll a "TROLL????
Be sure of the message you are sending out about this because people are going to look at the warning system and such and think to themseles "so what if i get suspened or warned for trolling , no one is allowed to call me one, it is not allowed to be used against me!!!!"
In my eyes thats not setting a good example for people and also is like expunging a offenders records as soon as he pays his fine so that no one can use his record against him. You say you are going to use "strict enforcement" on the site to clean it up?? well how you going to clean it up if you give people like this get out of jail free cards, and put them back into equal standing with the people of fauna that actually do what you ask of them???

Nicolai you seem like an Intelligent young man
In saying this i would ask you to see the flaw in this post
It seems to me to be the continuence of spite not a question that should be asked
You seem to be looking for a way around the rules of this site
I ask why? What is to be gained if you can call me a troll?
I know for a fact there is someone else that is considered a good guy to You that has had more warning points for trolling then i have would it be O.K. for you or i to call him a troll or anyone else for that matter?
I dont think so
I think even if it wasnt against the rules of this site,It only serves to antagonize


Btw i gave you bad karma for the first post on this thread
before you made post #23
So what do you say Lets bury the hatchet?

 

[nicolai]

lets look at this then

Nicolai you seem like an Intelligent young man?

I would like to think so.

In saying this i would ask you to see the flaw in this post
It seems to me to be the continuence of spite not a question that should be asked?

Spite towards whom, no names are mentioned, I did not make it personal you did. The is no such thing as a bad question or a question that shouldnt be asked. We all learn from asking qustions

You seem to be looking for a way around the rules of this site ?

How do you figure this, I am the one following Rich's rules

I ask why? What is to be gained if you can call me a troll

Show me where i called you a troll. I used appropriate posting rules as laid out by Rich, you didnt, you turned this thread into something personal which is a violation of the rules.

I know for a fact there is someone else that is considered a good guy to You that has had more warning points for trolling then i have would it be O.K. for you or i to call him a troll or anyone else for that matter?
I dont think so

no it wouldnt be ok, thats why i didnt call you or anyone else a troll. If you do that would also be a violation of the rules.

I think even if it wasnt against the rules of this site,It only serves to antagonize

Yes it does, so why did you take this thread to a personal level.

So what do you say Lets bury the hatchet?

I never had an axe to grind with you, i even commended you in one of my posts above for your improvements as seen by everyone on your posting until now on this thread.

 

[WebSlave]

Please take any personal issues between two members to email or PM. This thread is not about either person. Warning points are imminent.

 

[nicolai]

Thank you Rich. I just wanted to keep this thread on track. Did you happen to read the "attitude" poem posted above. I think that if we all read that to see if our attitudes are right prior to posting there would be a lot more courtious and meaningful posting around the site. I for one am content in knowing I have a place (HELL) to vent anything that cant and shouldnt be said on the forums and take it to that one place and leave it there.

 

[reptilebreeder]

Rich,

clap, clap, clap, APPLAUSE!

 

[Nirvana]

I will join Coyote in clapping

As one who very, very rarely posts on this site, but one who reads frequently, I cannot count the number of times I have had to shake my head at some of the behaviour exhibited not by the bad guys, but by those "regulars" who post here frequently.

I typically must admit that they (the regulars) do get the job done -- the true "bad guys" ARE eventually ousted and exposed. However, the posts and posts of infighting and insults never, in my opinion, serve any purpose but to obscure the real issues at hand.

People often complain that posts on Fauna drag on too long, and there are typically several others who speak up to defend the length of the posts, arguing that the truth often takes time to emerge. In many cases I agree with this, but when the bulk of a post consists of two members insulting one another, with the real issues scattered in between, those issues are often lost to the casual reader. What one might take away from such a 50 page post could, unfortunately, be, "Member A and Member B were really going at each other!" Rather than, "Vendor Q really ripped that poor guy off -- I'd better stay away from him." The important part is lost beneath all the drama.

...Also, I believe that the integrity of the BOI in general would be greatly increased by the elimination of much of the pettiness that plauged it up until now. A lot of people hear that the "bad guys" say things like, "Fauna is a joke anyway," and I'm sure a lot of the infighting contributes to that statement. I certainly don't think that it's a joke now, but I think that if ALL of the known Good Guys behaved in as professional and nonconfrontational a manner as possible, then the "Bad Guys" would have nothing to laugh about.

Plus, it often just plain makes me sad to see how mean people can be to one another. Yes, I know I'm sensitive , but if we all just try and be more nice to one another, won't that just serve to put more niceness into the world at large? Karma, you know!

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I have understood Rich’s points from the beginning. I do agree with much of what John and Nicholas have stated about the methods that have been used in the past, having been tremendous assets in exposing the scammers, liars and just bad business practices. There have also been methods that have been employed behind the scenes to expose and help bring resolution to the wronged. A recently departed member contributed a lot to both methods.

I already expressed my concerns about the BOI on a thread before the changes took place and I asked much of the same questions (a little differently than here). I also understand the need Rich sees. I believe that most of us actually agree that some of the garbage has to go. The problem is that not all of us have the same ideas of what the garbage is. Anyway it’s a mute point. We are not the ones who decide. The decision has been made to go in this particular direction.

We all have choices to make, we can adept to the changes or leave. If you decide to leave, the only ones to gain are the Bad Guys. Nicholas, the guy with the white horse has adapted, if we don’t his voice is the only one that will be heard.

If the changes go to far and make the BOI ineffective, I have faith that Rich will see it and allow it to be corrected appropriately. I have a feeling that things will settle down shortly and it will be a medium where we all can see the lines that can’t be crossed. That is my hope anyway.

It’s not a hard concept, Rich wants a more user-friendly environment for the masses, which would include people like Kitt here. No disrespect intended. We have to go with the flow or flow somewhere else. It’s just that simple. More effort will just have to be put into the “behind the scenes methods”. The bad guys already accuse us of practically being on a conference call daily anyway.

In my opinion this is when it starts to swing to far the other way

but I think that if ALL of the known Good Guys behaved in as professional and nonconfrontational a manner as possible, then the "Bad Guys" would have nothing to laugh about.

While we should be able to get through a post without calling someone an “ idiot ” We can never get to the point where we can’t be confrontational. We would then have two hands tied behind our back. Kitt, you have to understand something, Nobody should care what the Bad Guys laugh at. They stop laughing in time anyway. Especially when people inquire about them and they have an ear full publicly and privately.

Plus, it often just plain makes me sad to see how mean people can be to one another. Yes, I know I'm sensitive , but if we all just try and be more nice to one another, won't that just serve to put more niceness into the world at large? Karma, you know!

That would be just, DANDY and I would be happy with that but the bad guys are not nice. Some can take thousands of dollars away from nice, hardworking people. They can change their names and information as fast as you change your socks. When we catch one, I don’t want to be his/her therapist, I want to cripple his ability to take anyone else.

People often complain that posts on Fauna drag on too long, and there are typically several others who speak up to defend the length of the posts, arguing that the truth often takes time to emerge.

I agree with most of what you have written. I dislike it when it serves no good purpose. Sometimes though, a thread is dragged along for a purpose. Sometimes there is a valid reason that you just can’t see when skimming a topic.

In many cases I agree with this, but when the bulk of a post consists of two members insulting one another, with the real issues scattered in between, those issues are often lost to the casual reader
What one might take away from such a 50 page post could, unfortunately, be, "Member A and Member B were really going at each other!" Rather than, "Vendor Q really ripped that poor guy off -- I'd better stay away from him." The important part is lost beneath all the drama.

A wholeheartedly agree. I would add my personal thoughts.
If it came down to the fact that you had to choose between making it easier for the casual reader or exposing and/or correcting a misdeed, I opt for outing the misdeed.

The buyer has to be vigilant, if he or she is seeking information from others on the BOI before purchasing. It is not up to us to wrap it up in a neat little package every time. I make an effort to search high and low for the information I need to make a decision to purchase from an unknown person online. You have to have some responsibility.

One more thing about the “Fauna Bashers”
Most ran when Rich put the membership fees into place. They don’t contribute anything to this site. They stick their heads up just long enough to do a little baiting then run and hide again. Their only purpose is to add to the headaches here. Ignore them.

I am sorry if it looks like I am picking on you Kitt, your posts just deals with a lot of what I was thinking about and you were the last one to post on this thread. So please don’t take anything I have said personally. It is just one member’s opinion.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

A wholeheartedly agree.

****I

 

[Nirvana]

I am sorry if it looks like I am picking on you Kitt, your posts just deals with a lot of what I was thinking about and you were the last one to post on this thread. So please don’t take anything I have said personally. It is just one member’s opinion.

No worries at all, and have seen from all of your posts that you, Dennis, are one who genuinely and truly believes in the power that this site has to do good, AND goes far above and beyond the call of duty of an average member to help in any way possible. (To be honest, for a long time I thought you were a moderator ). In fact, I honestly can't say that I recall ever having seen you participating in any of the petty infighting that I was referring to -- I think that your method of participation is one which perhaps others could learn at lot from.

I did just want to clarify a couple of things though about my previous post:

While we should be able to get through a post without calling someone an “ idiot ” We can never get to the point where we can’t be confrontational. We would then have two hands tied behind our back.

"Nonconfrontational" was absolutely the wrong word. I looked for the right one and couldn't find it Perhaps -- "impersonal" is a better word? I agree that it is vital to be able to confront people about the issue that is being brought into question in as direct a manner as possible. However, it seems that often people have personal issues with other members which get dragged into the discussions along with bitter insinuations and baggage, and that can bog down the issues in question, IMO. That's what I was implying that some people laugh about -- the fact that, on occasion, a post can get turned into just a yelling match between two members which has no relevance to the issues at hand.

That would be just, DANDY and I would be happy with that but the bad guys are not nice.

Once again, I was referring more to the way people on this site sometimes treat one another than the actual confirmed Bad Guys, who are known liars and thieves and deserve to be labelled as such. It just occasionally seems as though there is a lot of venom which gets directed at other members, and that's what I find upsetting. It often seems to be that people behave much less pleasantly to one another when using the medium of the Internet for their communication that when in person or even on the phone. I'm still not sure why yet, and it is upsetting everywhere I see it, not just here. However, in the context of the BOI this misdirected animosity can sometimes get in the way of ousting the real bad guys, and that's why I percieve its elimination from this particular site to be so important.

Sometimes though, a thread is dragged along for a purpose. Sometimes there is a valid reason that you just can’t see when skimming a topic.

Absolutely! Occasionally, a thread doesn't even COME to a concrete resolution (ie, both parties were in the wrong in some way, but neither one could be labelled "bad") and a prospective buyer or other interested party must just read the whole thread through to come to his or her own conclusions about the seller's integrity. However, when the bulk of a thread is made up of off-topic gobbledy-gook.....

...Just thought I would clarify those things -- I don't think that people need to be any nicer to known "Bad Guys," just maybe try and be nicer to one another, and more professional in general.

 

[Nirvana]

*and I have

Amazing how you can proofread something and STILL make dumb mistakes

 

[ravensgait]

Dennis, Kitt I agree with what both of you said above.

This site has done a lot of good and I believe it will continue to do so. Sure calling a duck head a duck head has gotten results at times, at others it has caused the threads to go off into left field some never to return(more than one found its way to Hell) Seems to me that all we're being asked to do differently is to just not write the insults ETC ETC that we may be thinking at the time.

I would hope we here have the ability to still drag out bad guys without calling them ducks ETC ETC . Randy

 

[The BoidSmith]

It’s true that in some instances putting pressure on some guys has provided results. But I have also seen the opposite, guys that were scammed turned into bad guys because they were less experienced in how to handle the issues here in the BOI than others.
But anyways, why do people get so fired-up because of the points? Reputation points represent what other people think about what we think. Is what people think about us so much important than what we think of ourselves? In MHO we should voice our opinion in a civil way regardless of whether someone else approves it or not. The root of the recent problems, banning, threats, etc. was more than likely a result of the reputation point system. Vicious attacks and antagonisms were rewarded with points by people who love to watch the drama. But in order to maintain and increase the “reputation” (from either side) the violence of the attacks had to escalate. Why? Because if not the subsequent posts would be dull, less exciting, and not worthy of additional praise. It was a simple negative feedback system. Let’s hope the “karma” approach turns things around.