Poison Dart Frog Health

[heebie.jeebies]

I purchased four baby poison dart frogs about two months ago. This is my first time working with dart frogs, so I need a little help with this issue.

One of the frogs, D. Auratus (pale mint metallic green with black spotting) passed away after being in the tank for about a month. He looked like he was at a healthy weight, so I didn't understand what the problem was.

Then another frog, D. Azureus (shades of blue with many scattered black flecks), suddenly died. He also looked at a healthy weight.

Finally this morning, a third frog, D. Tinctorius (blue legs with a yellow head and back, and some black stripes) died. Now this one, I actually noticed something was very wrong because he was getting dangerously thin, despite being fed adequately. I would actually watch to make sure he was eating.

When I purchased these frogs, I also bought a professional set up that was completely made by the place I got it from. It is well hydrated and seems to be doing well. I feed the frogs flightless fruit flies, between 20 - 30 flies per frog, undusted (I was told to start doing this soon, but was also told not providing it shouldn't have resulted in death). All frogs were eating regularly and always had ample amounts of food in the tank.

My questions is now this - is there anything I can do, or test, to find out what the underlying cause is of their deaths? I have one frog left, D. Leucomelas (orange with black spotting), and so far he eats very well, is very active and is a nice weight. But I am afraid he will suddenly up and die too, should this issue be caused by something in the tank.

What could be killing my frogs?

 

[porkchop48]

I purchased four baby poison dart frogs about two months ago. This is my first time working with dart frogs, so I need a little help with this issue.

One of the frogs, D. Auratus (pale mint metallic green with black spotting) passed away after being in the tank for about a month. He looked like he was at a healthy weight, so I didn't understand what the problem was.

Then another frog, D. Azureus (shades of blue with many scattered black flecks), suddenly died. He also looked at a healthy weight.

Finally this morning, a third frog, D. Tinctorius (blue legs with a yellow head and back, and some black stripes) died. Now this one, I actually noticed something was very wrong because he was getting dangerously thin, despite being fed adequately. I would actually watch to make sure he was eating.

When I purchased these frogs, I also bought a professional set up that was completely made by the place I got it from. It is well hydrated and seems to be doing well. I feed the frogs flightless fruit flies, between 20 - 30 flies per frog, undusted (I was told to start doing this soon, but was also told not providing it shouldn't have resulted in death). All frogs were eating regularly and always had ample amounts of food in the tank.

My questions is now this - is there anything I can do, or test, to find out what the underlying cause is of their deaths? I have one frog left, D. Leucomelas (orange with black spotting), and so far he eats very well, is very active and is a nice weight. But I am afraid he will suddenly up and die too, should this issue be caused by something in the tank.

What could be killing my frogs?

What is killing your frogs - Stress and lack of knowledge.

Dart frogs should not be mixed. You have 4 different types of frogs. Everything from bold / active and shy. Who ever you bought them from should have told you that mixing was going to eventually result in the death of one or more of them..

Were they CB and did you buy them from a breeder? WHo? What size tank?

Set up ? Size ? temps

 

[heebie.jeebies]

Hey, thanks for the reply.

I was told by the breeder that they could be mixed temporarily until they got a little older, then I would have to separate them. Since I only had them for a brief time and they didn't grow in size very much, I didn't think it would be an issue this early on. Each frog was literally smaller than my thumbnail. Furthermore, the one I was told would be most aggressive (D. Azureus) was the second one to die. I kept a close eye on these frogs most of the time. They didn't seem to really bother each other. D. Tinctorius also was getting skinnier and skinner. I don't understand how aggression would play a role in emaciation when there is no real competition for food. Could they really have been that stressed out that they died? Again, this is my first time working with these guys and I don't know a lot...so please bear with me.

Is it possible it could be parasitic, bacterial or fungal? Are dart frogs prone to any of those types of infections? I am concerned because if there are any preventative measures left for me to take, I'd like to try them to keep my last frog standing alive.

They were captive bred. They are currently in a 10 gallon tank with a glass lid and have the spanish moss on the bottom and some pothos and plenty of humidity. I lightly mist is 2x a day as told by the breeder. The temperature gets between 74 - 76 degrees F during the day and around 70 degrees F at night. Basically, the thermometer in the tank has a green area that it should always range, and the temperature is always somewhere in that green area.

If I were to get more frogs, would I be able to keep multiple frogs of the same species in the same tanks? I really liked the little guys and would like to continue working with them, but I want to learn more about them before I start again. Could you recommend any books on them?

 

[Ramiro]

You really shouldn't be mixing species at all, that was your first mistake. There are countless threads on dendroboard.com of people asking questions about mixing frogs and trying to find ways for it to be done and virtually all end in disaster. If you want a tank with lots of darts, get a species that can live in a colony in a large enough tank, like d. auratus. The only time I mix species is when I have several froglets morphing out, and even then it is only a temporary thing until they are fully formed and feeding, then they go in their own tanks or I will mix sometimes if I have some for sale, again only temporary. Even then I should probably stop because you also risk introducing pathogens from one species to another. I suppose you could mix together closely related species like the various species of auratus but that opens up a whole new ethical can of worms because doing so could and will result in hybrids of several species, which endangers the rest of the captive frogs through genetic pollution. Virtually all dart frog keepers highly frown upon it and I, myself, would not sell or buy from anyone who I knew was doing such things. You mixed bold frogs with shy frogs, hence the problems there with stress.
Your second mistake was not supplementing their diet properly, or at all in your case. dart frogs NEED their supplements, they need a calcium with d3 and a good multivitamin. I supplement small froglets at EVERY feeding while they're growing fast and large froglets or adults every other feeding. They can go downhill quickly if not supplemented, gradually they lose the ability to catch fruitflies efficiently and just waste away. Your supplements need to be fresh as well, after 6 months throw them out, even if 95% of it is unused. I get my tadpoles new food every 6 months as well, if I didn't then gradually I would notice the frogs morphing out smaller and smaller and just not as hardy and robust as frogs raised on new food.

I suggest you try again, I'd hate to see someone get discouraged by a simple rookie mistake. Sounds like keeping enough food for them wasn't an issue for you like it is for many noobs so just don't mix species and use supplements regularly and you'll find they're very easy to keep.

 

[Ramiro]

Keep your frogs in the lower 70's, I don't let them go above 75 at all. Make sure no sunlight hits your tanks at all, not even a ray if it has a glass cover or the temperature will spike. Auratus are a little more forgiving then tincs (including azureus, which is just another subspecies of tinctorious) and would probably be find if the temps get in the upper 70's for a while during the day, but tincs like it cooler. If you keep them in the upper 70's they will need more food and it may be difficult to keep good weight on them.

 

[porkchop48]

Hey, thanks for the reply.

I was told by the breeder that they could be mixed temporarily until they got a little older, then I would have to separate them. Since I only had them for a brief time and they didn't grow in size very much, I didn't think it would be an issue this early on. Each frog was literally smaller than my thumbnail. Furthermore, the one I was told would be most aggressive (D. Azureus) was the second one to die. I kept a close eye on these frogs most of the time. They didn't seem to really bother each other. D. Tinctorius also was getting skinnier and skinner. I don't understand how aggression would play a role in emaciation when there is no real competition for food. Could they really have been that stressed out that they died? Again, this is my first time working with these guys and I don't know a lot...so please bear with me.

Is it possible it could be parasitic, bacterial or fungal? Are dart frogs prone to any of those types of infections? I am concerned because if there are any preventative measures left for me to take, I'd like to try them to keep my last frog standing alive.

They were captive bred. They are currently in a 10 gallon tank with a glass lid and have the spanish moss on the bottom and some pothos and plenty of humidity. I lightly mist is 2x a day as told by the breeder. The temperature gets between 74 - 76 degrees F during the day and around 70 degrees F at night. Basically, the thermometer in the tank has a green area that it should always range, and the temperature is always somewhere in that green area.

If I were to get more frogs, would I be able to keep multiple frogs of the same species in the same tanks? I really liked the little guys and would like to continue working with them, but I want to learn more about them before I start again. Could you recommend any books on them?

I agree with every thing Ramiro had to say.

Do you have spag moss or spanish moss? The spanish moss can be a little iffy with froglets of such young age. Also look into leaf litter. It gives the froglets places to hide and feel more secure.

Hybrids are a big no no. No reputable breeder keep or produces hybrids ( in the dart frog world)

Start with one or two froglets in a 10 gal. Feed heavily and dust their food accordingly and skip the whole mixing of frogs. It always end up bad.

 

[Ramiro]

I feed the frogs flightless fruit flies, between 20 - 30 flies per frog, undusted (I was told to start doing this soon, but was also told not providing it shouldn't have resulted in death).

Captive darts often have a very limited diet, namely fruit flies, and that's it. It's all they need, any other prey items are just a nice bonus, really. I think it's their limited diet that has something to do with their dependence on regular supplementation. Many other herps we keep largely don't need the supplements provided so long as they're given a varied diet.

 

[dieselfan]

A 10 gallon enclosure for froglet dart frogs is way too big. Assuming your frogs were under an inch. I kept mine(2 auratus,and1 tinctorious) in a 8"X8"X12" plastic container and they did great!... Until I moved them into a 10gallon. After a week or two I noticed they were getting lethargic and on the skinny side. I called the breeder I got them from, explained the symptoms and setup and was told that the 10 gallon was too big for frogs that size. Put them back in my smaller tank and they had all bounced back within a week. Hope this helps. Sorry for your loss too!

 

[porkchop48]

A 10 gallon enclosure for froglet dart frogs is way too big. Assuming your frogs were under an inch. I kept mine(2 auratus,and1 tinctorious) in a 8"X8"X12" plastic container and they did great!... Until I moved them into a 10gallon. After a week or two I noticed they were getting lethargic and on the skinny side. I called the breeder I got them from, explained the symptoms and setup and was told that the 10 gallon was too big for frogs that size. Put them back in my smaller tank and they had all bounced back within a week. Hope this helps. Sorry for your loss too!

I call BS.

No a 10 gal tank is not too big for 4 froglets that should have not even been together.

There was no supplimenting with any of their food items. Not enough plants and places to hide and not to mention species mixed that should not be mixed.

Who was the breeder you got yours from? Because what they told you was a line of bull.

Some people do keep froglets in steralites and / or 190oz container but that is normally for newly morphed froglets. Froglets that are the size of a thumbnail are not new morphs and should have done fine in a 10 gal provided it was set up correctly and not mixed.

 

[Ramiro]

A 10 gallon enclosure for froglet dart frogs is way too big. Assuming your frogs were under an inch. I kept mine(2 auratus,and1 tinctorious) in a 8"X8"X12" plastic container and they did great!... Until I moved them into a 10gallon. After a week or two I noticed they were getting lethargic and on the skinny side. I called the breeder I got them from, explained the symptoms and setup and was told that the 10 gallon was too big for frogs that size. Put them back in my smaller tank and they had all bounced back within a week. Hope this helps. Sorry for your loss too!

I'm guessing you keep your darts together, too. That will not work I'm telling you right now, you will have to separate them.

 

[dieselfan]

They were housed together when they were under an inch.. Yes they ended up getting seperated. If you dont agree with my post send me a PM.. Lets chat=)

 

[porkchop48]

They were housed together when they were under an inch.. Yes they ended up getting seperated. If you dont agree with my post send me a PM.. Lets chat=)

Why PM?

So then you do agree that they should not be mixed and they might have helped lead to the their death?

 

[Ramiro]

A 10 gallon enclosure for froglet dart frogs is way too big. Assuming your frogs were under an inch. I kept mine(2 auratus,and1 tinctorious) in a 8"X8"X12" plastic container and they did great!... Until I moved them into a 10gallon. After a week or two I noticed they were getting lethargic and on the skinny side. I called the breeder I got them from, explained the symptoms and setup and was told that the 10 gallon was too big for frogs that size. Put them back in my smaller tank and they had all bounced back within a week. Hope this helps. Sorry for your loss too!

They were housed together when they were under an inch.. Yes they ended up getting seperated. If you dont agree with my post send me a PM.. Lets chat=)

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything but no, I don't agree with your post because I'm trying to help someone out who's new with dart frogs and it's clear you definitely don't know enough about dart frogs to be telling someone else what they should or shouldn't do. I just hope the OP and others new to dart frogs ignore your misinformation.
I don't PM unless I'm trying to make a sale or trade with someone.

 

[dieselfan]

Yes I totally AGREE that juvenile and adult frogs should not be housed in inter-specie groups!! Im not arguing that FACT! However I was told by a breeder, and have seen first hand that enclosure size can be a factor when dealing with froglets.. I was just trying to offer another explanation.. Being as no one here has seen his set-up, or the actual size of his frogs.. Um yeah need I say more? We are all just speculating causes..

 

[heebie.jeebies]

Thank you everyone so much for your help, I really appreciate all of you taking the time to give me advice.

If and when I get more frogs, I will be sure to keep them separate! Just to note, though, in case anyone thought this, I didn't keep them together to breed them. I was just keeping them together as babies because I thought they would be social and get along. If only they were as friendly with each other as they were cute....

 

[MyDumName]

I would say that housing different species frogs is not the greatest idea in this size enclosure. Can it be done...yeah sure with the right species and set up. To say they are fine due to their size, I have to disagree. Those frogs all have different adult sizes and have different growth rates, so it won't really work out. As said previously, they all have different temperaments. Even frogs of the same species have different temperaments. I've had to remove froglets of the same species into new enclosures due to some being more aggressive than others. And this aggressiveness is not something that can necessarily be seen. Often, you just tell by a slight difference in size amongst same age frogs. Pull the smaller ones out, and next thing you know they are back up in size as the others. Just weren't compatible together just yet.

Spanish moss....I wouldn't use it. Sphagnum would be more ideal, moist of course. I also prefer to raise my froglets in the 190oz containers with just sphagnum and some leaf litter (bigger leaves, pothos could be planted and do fine in this set up as well). No lights except room lighting, no heat source. As far as temperatures, bad things happen above 80 degrees. I have had no problems keeping them anywhere in the 70s. Most room temperature is fine (most). In addition, I have used 2.5 gallon or the 5.5 gallon aquariums commonly available. Solid glass lid. This setup costs more of course. I prefer the 190oz. With moist sphagnum, and a slight mistig initially, you will probably not need to mist. 100% humidity will be obtained with no ventilation in this set up. I have a different setups for my adults (well, I sold most of my stuff), but I use whatever size tnk with a glass lid and small vent section. False bottom with PVC and eggcrate and my substrate is a cocobrick mixed with orchid bark and charcoal usually. Or tree fern fiber instead of or in addition to orchid bark. Then leaf litter and some plants.

Supplements, yeah I use phosphorus free rep-cal calcium powder and rep cal herptivite (blue and pink label). I dust every feeding. I don't count the flies, I put a bunch in, and they last a little while, then I feed again a few days later.

Enclosure size and froglets....yeah I personally don't go too big initially. Just personal preference from experience...easier to monitor, cheaper, etc.

Someone mentioned were they CB....I believe only really one of those species is regularly imported, the auratus. The others, I'd say you would have a much harder time finding WC than CB. Plus with the size of them, don't believe they were imports. Highly unlikely.

As far as obtaining some more, I see you are in Toms River, I am near Cherry Hill. I currently am only keeping one trio of auratus, Panamanian Green & Blacks. I have 4 well off offspring that I would consider selling as a group. I also have tadpoles, but not many that I will either sell off when I get a good amount of tads, or could hook you up with some froglets if I don't sell them. My prices are very fair and I could give you further explanation as well about keeping darts successfully. I could give you the info either way, just ask, ha. Oh, I have a lot of the supplies I mentioned earlier as well, like the charcoal and tree fern fiber, etc in case you need some. I have a bunch too that I don't need. Kind of got out of darts recently.