Policy change for FaunaClassifieds - IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!

[WebSlave]

Let me make a clarification here. This thread was basically about the rift between JeffB and myself. Mario's site got included in the backwash. But if Mario is interested in keeping this thing alive, I can certainly comply with his wishes.

If he wishes to boycott my sites, then more power to him. Same for the Bob499 guy. That makes two. One of them anonymous. Darn, I am REALLY worried. So they want to boycott sites that make an effort at exposing the bad guys in this industry. Excellent battle cry, I must say. I would just love to see their membership list on that one. Would save us all from having to make up a current list of people to stay away from, so their efforts would certainly be helpful to at least some people. Just not the ones THEY would think.

Good luck fellas.

 

[Ken Harbart]

If he wishes to boycott my sites, then more power to him. Same for the Bob499 guy. That makes two. One of them anonymous.

Nope. It just makes one. Mario is Bob499 is Boycott.

 

[meretseger]

Wow, Mario has gotten the member of TWO of the biggest herp sites on the net angry at him. That's talent, right there. I bet he gets far in life... So what was he trying to accomplish again?

Erin Benner

(my dog is afraid of umbrellas and cookie tins.)

 

[WebSlave]

Thanks Ken.

I am asking that if Mario or "Bob499" log back in here to start trouble, please do not lower yourselves to their level by arguing with "them". Their threads will be deleted in short order, so your words will probably not go very far anyway.

Mario apparently has his own agenda in mind with this issue and I am not playing his game nor wasting my time on him.

 

[MSL]

I'm afraid of spiders.....

and all biting insects....YUCK!

Rich, my respect for you has risen to an even higher level. Although this may not be the case, I hope you do not feel the need to defend your decision. Those who cannot understand the noble effort of seeking higher ground probably cannot understand any explanation offered either.

Again my thanks for all the hard work you put into this site.

Meryl Lechner

 

[WebSlave]

Speaking of biting insects, check this out:

Brown Recluse spider bite

 

[MSL]

Whoa!

I've heard how nasty those bites can be, this is the first time I've actually seen one.

Yep...I REALLY don't like spiders


Meryl Lechner

 

[gardenmum]

That is a seriously

scary spider. Ugggh!!

But I think your pics are numbered backwards, if I looked at it correctly.

 

[Gerry Binczik]

I'm only an occasional visitor to these boards (or to any message boards these days, as my online recreational time is currently limited) and just found this thread. My apologies for coming into the discussion a bit late.

I can't even begin to tell you how disappointed I am by your "policy change", Rich, and by the motivation that appears to be behind your and several others' support of your decision. What has always set your website apart is the BOI, a place for open and honest exchange about the dealings people have had with others in the herp community, to the benefit of the community overall. Do I really need to remind you what the opening statement of your own "Rules for Posting on the BOI" says?…

<I>"This forum is designed to serve the purpose of giving anyone interested in the buying and selling of reptiles and amphibians the opportunity to inquire about, or find already existing information concerning a person or business with whom they are considering doing business with."</I>

Clearly, Jeff Barringer and his PetHobbyist staff are people, and kingsnake.com and their other PetHobbyist websites constitute a business, that MANY folks in the online herp community have done, are now doing or might someday do business with. I fail to see how they differ meaningfully from any other people or businesses that come under the scrutiny of the many fine folks who make your BOI such a success, except in the size - and apparently undue influence - of their enterprise.

I will speak plainly to you because I have (until finding this thread, anyway) always had a great deal of respect for you and the service you perform(ed) for the entire herp community: Far from seeing this thread as an effort by you to make amends and bring the herp community together, I can't help but see it as your abandoning what you believe is right in favor of what you believe is most profitable. Maybe you even sound scared. (Has Jeff Barringer & Co. succeeded in cowing you with some kind of legal threats or something?)

You said in your opening post that this shouldn't be about winning or losing, or who's right or wrong. I agree wholeheartedly that such prideful issues are not worth defending. But it's not simply a matter of liking one site rather than another as you suggested, either. For me personally and for many other people whom I have spoken with, it IS about a fundamental difference between right and wrong. And that difference IS worth fighting for, even self-sacrificing for, if one truly cares about the community to which s/he belongs.

I believe that you know as well as I do that blatantly unfair treatment of kingsnake.com users by Jeff Barringer and his staff was building for some time before reaching a peak earlier this year, and THAT is what caused the meltdown at kingsnake.com and the subsequent schism now seen among online herpers. It was NOT caused by your allowing BOI threads or even maintaining a separate board specifically devoted to threads on the subject. I and many others believe that schism cannot and will not be healed without meaningful redress by Jeff Barringer and his staff to those they have mistreated/continue to mistreat. By deleting all discourse on this situation from your website, all you have done (in addition to violating what I believed was one of your most basic tenets) is hidden the problem, not resolved it. Now it will simply fester in our community unseen by users of your website, just as Jeff Barringer & Co. ensure it remains unseen by the users they still have.

I really don't understand people who sell out on their principles so cheaply, but maybe that's just me. I DO fully understand - and fully share, too - the goal of uniting the herp community for its betterment and protection (for those who might truly be motivated purely by such a thought rather than by their hopes and fears concerning their own bank accounts), but I don't honestly see how that can possibly be accomplished by all of us turning a blind eye to injustice perpetrated by one of the most powerful members/institutions in our community. Someone (was it Ritchie?) brought up the American Civil War. To take another look at that analogy: In the interest of remaining one nation and yet avoiding all of the suffering and anguish brought about by the military conflict directed to that goal, should we simply have allowed the South to continue the practice of slavery? No, I'm not saying that kingsnake.com was/is practicing anything so heinous as that, but what they were/are doing to their users is plainly wrong by any reasonable standard; the difference between the real situation and the analogy is simply one of scale, not substance.

It would be different if it were possible for kingsnake.com's users to work WITH Jeff Barringer and his staff to resolve the serious problems there, but I and others certainly gave it our best effort to no avail whatsoever. Those here who know me know that I did not quickly nor happily give up on working cooperatively with kingsnake.com. I also don't believe that I or many others at any time acted petty, childish, or in any of the other indefensible ways mentioned in various posts in this thread (though many did act so at times, to be sure, and none of us is perfect!). Indeed, I believe I and others addressed Jeff Barringer and his staff respectfully far beyond the point at which they treated us quite the opposite, and to this day we continue to simply try to do what we think is right for our community. Knowing, therefore, that Jeff Barringer & Co.'s unjust practices are in fact supported by each and every webpage hit their website or the websites of their advertisers receive, I personally will continue to avoid them. My conscience will not allow me to do otherwise, nor can I be bullied or bought off to ignore it.

Astonishingly to me, I now suppose that this post will be seen by only a few people here before it is deleted in accordance with your new policy. I am deeply saddened that you have chosen to emulate kingsnake.com in this regard, and sincerely hope that you will reconsider your decision. Free speech - especially in defense of fair treatment of all members of our community - is worth fighting for! You knew that once, I think, and hopefully you will again.

In the meantime, I guess I should stop touting faunaclassifieds as one of the "free-speech alternatives" available to the online herp community, huh?…

Gerry Binczik

 

[WebSlave]

Gerry,

I have had everything you have said filter through my bain cells early on as I was contemplating this step I felt needed to be taken. And I knew some people would see it the way that you are. I honestly have not talked nor passed ANY correspondence between myself and Jeff Barringer since the phone call he made to me demanding the removal of the Adam Block thread. So no, there was no coercion and no threats involved. Actually if there had been so, it would have only solidified my resolve to continue the battle.

This is about the appearance of pettiness. The appearances that this is just one website against another. My concern is that my continuance of fanning the flames of the conflict would look nothing more than petty jealousy to an outside audience that would not know the full story, and would not take the time and effort to find it out. Plus it was spilling over onto other websites, so that appearance was only being reinforced.

Basically, it is none of my business how someone runs their website. Reread the quote in your third paragraph taken from my own rules page. How someone runs their own website has nothing at all to do with what the BOI is about. And this website in general is not going to be he Don Quixote of the herp websites community. It's bad enough that there is absolutely no cohesion amoung the various sites. Everyone is trying to get a piece of the action and many feel that the way to do this is by stepping on the heads of the other guys trying to get noticed. I do not want to be a part of that sort of conflict or behavior.

Granted I do understand that there is a commercial aspect of kingsnake.com that will be part and parcel with many people buying and selling their animals. The question is, where do I draw the line? I have always been willing to listen to what people expected and wanted out of my sites, and tried to accomodate that as much as possible. I am still willing to do that, but I have to be convinced that the suggestions are reasonable and within the scope of what I want this site to be focused on.

If the majority of the people here feel that I have swung the pendulum too far the other way, then let me know about it. I will listen. So far, from the feedback I have gotten, however, this does not appear to be the case. But perhaps there is a silent majority that feels otherwise. At best, if the majority feels that SOME outlet is needed, then I will consider complying, but strictly on a hands-off basis. I will not take part in the conversations nor post my opinions in any fashion.

In my opinion, attempting to keep a site focused on the area it was originally designed to accomodate is not censorship of those topics that fall outside of the focus. There HAS to be limits placed somewhere about what a site is for and what it is not for. Just as there has to be some line drawn about what is profanity and what is not. In most cases, this will all be extremely debatable as each person will have their own ideas on what should be the limits.

So you all tell me, what do you want this site to be? If someone wants a kingsnake.com specific forum to discuss the issues there, in relation to business dealings with animals, then I can certainly do that. If you all WANT a forum where issues with websites can be discussed, yes I can do that. But you have to tell me WHY it is needed here. But in no instances will I allow just a bashing forum on my site. And bear in mind that one of YOU is going to be assigned the task of being the moderator for that forum. I will just give you the space for it. I personally am withdrawing my involvement with that sort of conflict that has evolved from Jeff's actions towards me and my sites. But I am willing to listen to rational discussions about why someplace to discuss their actions is needed, and why it should be HERE.

So talk to me....

 

[herpcondo]

Hey Rich,,
I for one applaud what your doing,,, It does take a big man to say"enough is enough".
As far as pleasing everyone,,,
i think we all know that is never gonna happen,, but it all really comes down to this,,,, who owns the website we are all on,,,?
And with the ownership comes great responsibilty, and a duty to do what he feels is the right thing to do,,, And i think Rich is more than fair with everyone,,, does he just randomly kick people off the site,,,No .. does he treat anyone unfairly,,,,,, No.... does he try and make the place better...Yes,, does he at least put ideas out there for discussion about what could make this site better?....Yes,,, and most of all , if the poular "vote" is yes to something,, does he make it happen...YES..( the fauna auction site) so in my eyes Rich is doing the right thing,,,and most of all if he can sleep good at night knowing at least for his part he "buried the axe " so to speak, then he deserves a pat on the back! and to me that is where the buck stops!
great site, and proud to be a member of this "family"
cheers to Rich

 

[bmm]

I already posted my own feelings, the little they are worth. But I like to see myself as one of the little fish swimming in a big pool. None of the big fish can survive unless they fed on the little fish. That is exactly what kingsnake has done. Yet this time, they have succeded with taking the other big fish out of the pond, while also getting rid of any little ones who disagree with this so the rest of the little fish can be blindly led into their open mouth. And now the only supporter and voice available has chosen to do what they do, keep quiet, and hope it all "goes away"

My respect or anyone elses doesn't and shouldn't matter. But for what its worth, personally, my respect was lain at the person who was NOT deleting posts, not going to ban everyone if they didnt like it, and who was going to say, STOP you can't be in this community if you lie, cover up, and basically cheat. And if you don't stop, people will know!

Another forum for kingsnake again? It doesn't really matter now. He got his way. He was able to treat members, and clients with disrespect, and treat us all like his little bad children, and then crush anyone who didn't like it AND keep it somewhat quiet to the general masses. But I believe it (a forum) would have stood for a good reminder to people what really can happen when you get consumed with money, power and the #1 spot.

bmm
Marisa Brophy
P.S. Either way this forum rules. So I will never stop coming here. LOL.

 

[Gerry Binczik]

Rich, I think I understand your position as you've expressed it: You operate a herp website. Therefore for you to criticize another herp website - particularly a potentially competing website - might make you appear petty. Ok, but...

- You buy/sell herps, too, right? Are you therefore now going to strictly avoid criticizing other people who buy/sell herps, too? Really it's none of your concern how someone runs their website OR ANY OTHER KIND OF HERP-ORIENTED BUSINESS unless you choose to make it your concern, right? Or does one cause you to risk appearing petty but the other not? I honestly don't see it, if that's your take on the situation.

- You have chosen not only to keep your own criticisms of kingsnake.com (and ostensibly other herp websites) to yourself, but also to disallow others to criticize them (and have deleted others' past criticisms of kingsnake.com as well). It's true that you created the "Web Wars..." forum and initiated a number of the threads/posted a number of the messages there, but you didn't create all the problems with Jeff Barringer & Co., and they weren't only problems between them and you. Far from it! MANY people have been treated very badly at kingsnake.com, and a number of them - myself included - came here and posted in good faith and in the context of your boards (prior to this new policy, anyway) criticisms of kingsnake.com for that mistreatment. But you didn't just delete posts related to your possibly petty (I don't really agree with your take on that either, by the way) tiff between faunaclassifieds and kingsnake.com, you deleted ALL our posts.

I know, your justification of the above is that it fits with your new policy which now suddenly and as far as I can tell extremely conveniently (for kingsnake.com) distinguishes between different kinds of herp businesses; now some are fair game for criticism on your site and others aren't. And hey, you DO solicit opinions on how to run your site from your users, and you DO even consider those opinions. I certainly applaud you for that.

But isn't doing the right thing important, too? Here in FL we still have the occasional racially segregated town ("there's a room in the back of the bar for <i>them</i>!"), and believe it or not the majority of the inhabitants of such places (who are NOT of "them") are just fine with it. Does that mean it's ok, then? As I said, I believe you know as well as I do about the injustice they have been perpetrating against users over at kingsnake.com. But now - even though you operate a website that functions largely to let the herp community know about the business practices of various members in that community - you think whatever they choose to do over there is just fine, heck, it should never even be allowed to be mentioned on your website, in the interest of some kind of togetherness?

I'm sorry, that simply makes no sense to me.

What DOES make sense to me is to stick to your original charter. No, neither kingsnake.com nor any other website merits its own forum for attacks against it, and yes, I understand that you personally might wish to stay clear of certain threads simply to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. But I don't see any GOOD reason why kingsnake.com and any other herp website can't be praised/criticized in the BOI just as with any other herp business.

Gerry Binczik

 

[WebSlave]

I once remember one of my high school science teachers cracking a joke:

"You know, I was wrong once. That particular day I thought I was wrong, but it turned out I was right after all. I was wrong about my being wrong."

On one hand I have people applauding my step in the direction of trying to resolve this conflict. To try to pull things back together when it feels that the stresses are going to be to no one's long term benefits. But on the other, I have people that feel that there needs to be a safe harbor somewhere for the truth to be seen. Some say that the rift will never be mended, and maybe now perhaps even get worse. That perhaps my gesture was wasted, and even worse, likely to be interpreted as a surrender.

So which one is more important? And will even asking this question force people to choose sides and begin to fan the flames again?

And Gerry, yes you do have valid points about the involvement of this site in the future of our industry. But you yourself say you don't have much time to come to this site, or other ones. So what are you offering to do? Be a sideline spectator or take a more active hand at what you are proposing is best that I do here? This site has MANY spectators that are content to just watch the show. People that look at this all as just entertainment, then go give their money to the other site for the site hosting and advertising accounts.

If the majority of the people just think that being a cheering section is good enough here, then I'm not interested in fighting their battles for them. I put this site up to try to help people and provide them with something interesting. If they are only looking for free entertainment, then go to the library, because I AM NOT INTERESTED in providing that for them.

So what are YOU going to do to help if this problem is as bad as you say it is?

 

[Rick Staub]

pettiness

"This is about the appearance of pettiness. "

While I agree somewhat with your statement Rich, I believe you have misplaced the responsibility for the pettiness. Those of us who followed the events with JeffB and ks.com from the beginning know whose pettiness was responsible for what happened. I think you have done the right thing from the beginning by allowing a place where people could post their grievances without fear of being banned. As Gerry said, a board dedicated to bashing a particular site may be too much, but changing your policies to make Jeffb or ks.com off limits is the wrong way to address this. Your decision to post or not to post is the same decision everyone else has to make, and anything they post has their name on it and they are solely responsible for their words. By changing your policy you remove your words and decide for everyone else what they can say. IMO you are not responsible for their words nor do I think their words reflect on you or make you petty.

 

[Wilomn]

Maybe I've been lifting too many heavy things this week but, I thought the gist of Rich's policy change was to quit the bitching and crying about how any other site was run by posting about it here. I thought the new policy was more in the line of- if you have a real problem such as I paid for my banner add and pissed off jeffb and it's gone as opposed to I violated the TOS over at that other site and now I'm banned can I join the club, is what Rich is trying to weed out.

That's not very clear but I got the impression that if you want to bitch and moan about how other sites are run then call your mommy but don't bring it here. However if you have a legitimate problem, got ripped off in some way or recieved sick or misrepresented animals or something of that nature, then that was still welcome here.

Rich is this not more in line with what you were thinking of? Or was it really just a wholesale removal of all controversial posting about ks.com and any others?

Sorry ahead of time if this has been addressed elsewhere in this thread and I just missed it but, I am now, after reading the last couple of pages, somewhat confused.

Was it a call to end petty bickering and complaining about how other sites are run, which is the point I got, or is it something else much more insidious and not nearly so admirable?

Wes Pollock

 

[Seamus Haley]

There was a lot said pertaining to KS and some related individuals, much of it very valuable...

Having huge threads, massive long detailed threads that were added to by many people removed from view or deleted...

Kinda seems like the effort of typing was wasted.

 

[CornCrazy]

I, too, am a bit confused. I also thought that you were just calling an end to the bickering and pettiness. I agree with wilomn, I understood that if we have a legitimate complaint regarding an "animal" deal gone bad, then we can still post here.

I do not agree with just a blanket "push the delete button" if someone has a legitimate complaint with KS.com or any other website. I want to be able to look up an individual or website and be able to decide for myself if I want to do business with them.

At the same time I think the web wars or having a "bashing" section in the forum is unnecessary and petty. I believe it will lead to more problems.

Rich, I am glad that I am not you. I feel like you are trying really hard to end this feud, without losing yourself or your "morals" in the process. I don't envy your position of having to try to find a place of equilibrium in this situation.

Regardless of what you decide, I stick by my first post...I do admire and congratulate you for trying to put this behind you. I hope you are able to come to a decision you are comfortable with.

With sincerest thanks for all that you do...
Terri Manning

 

[jdg]

I do admire you, Rich, for making an attempt to put everything behind you. But I'm afraid that I also have to say that I think that deleting the Web Wars forum was a bit abrupt. So many people do remember the varied events that started the animosity against Kingsnake and those threads were one of the few outlets around for people to state their grievances.

But there are two quotes, and one issue, that is especially disturbing me. The first is from the front page of the "Reptiles and Amphibians" section of this site as the description for the Original Board of Inquiry section. The second quote is part of an earlier post by Seamus on this thread with your answer to him included.

This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry.

As a pure hypothetical, say I were to pay you (Rich) for a banner ad, the needed steps on my end are followed but the banner ad dies due to a computer glitch and never ends up being seen... You (again, pure hypothetical) refuse to refund the money paid for services never rendered...

Would that be appropriate BOI posting material?

Seamus - the answer to that scenario is NO.

What would be the diffence between the scenario you stated, and your sending off your payment to your electric company and they shut off the power anyway?

The difference, as I see it, is that the electric company is not a herp related business and kingsnake.com (and other herp websites) ARE. In your own words, the BOI is for specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. Kingsnake.com is most certainly a business in this industry - they take people's money in exchange for advertising and web hosting services.

I agree that this site specially focusing on the foibles of another site is going a bit overboard. But what I understand you to be saying is offering special protection to herp sites/forums (even those that have a heavy business slant); a protection that I don't believe you would ever dream of offering to any other type of herp-related business. And that goes beyond ending the feud.

 

[WebSlave]

Kingsnake.com is most certainly a business in this industry - they take people's money in exchange for advertising and web hosting services.

That argument won't hold water. People can claim that the power company is a part of this industry because without power they can't maintain a healthy climate for their animals. The auto industry certainly would be part as well, because most people need transportation in order to do any number of things for their animals. The question is, where do I draw the line.

I have decided that the line is between the buying and selling of actual herps and the supplies directly needed for their care and maintenance, and everything else. Web site hosting and advertising just falls on the wrong side of the line. If you buy animals directly from JeffB or kingsnake.com as the selling entity, then now you have grounds to post here about it.

Trying to recall the threads that were in the Web Wars forum, I am trying to relate those that might be within the focus of this site.

Why would the actions of the moderators at kingsnake.com be worthly of inclusion? Why should I care that they deleted the messages from many people and probably had a hand in the banning of many people?

How about someone aggravating JeffB to the point where they got banned from that site? What difference should that make here?

Someone please explain to me why those topics should be included on this site. If not those, then what other topics would be relevant for inclusion here and why?