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Possible Hets...

D

David Reid

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I have recently seen an ad where the seller is placing a 33% Het tag on a snake, and I have to voice my opinion on this.

For simple recessives Ball Pythons, let's take Albinos:

You have a visual male Albino. Everything that this snake produces will be either an Albino or a 100% Het Albino, depending on the female. Let's say we breed the male Albino to a Het Albino female. We should get Albinos and 100% Het Albino babies. The visuals are visual Albinos, and every normal looking baby is a 100% Het Albino.

So let's take a male 100% Het Albino produced by this visual Albino, and breed him to another 100% Het Albino female (preferably from an unrelated breeding). You should get Albino babies and normal looking babies from the clutch. The visual Albinos are just Albinos, plain and simple. The normal looking babies are either 100% Het for Albino or normals. The problem is, you cannot tell one from the other, the actual Het Albinos from the normals in the clutch. So, you sell the babies as 66% Possible Het Albinos, since two-thirds of the babies should be 100% Hets, and one third should be normals, genetically speaking. Each individual baby is either a normal or a 100% Het, but clutch wise, you have a 66% chance of picking a 100% Het, and a 34% chance of picking a normal. (Damn I hope I got that right:)

So, let's breed one of those possible Het males that we just produced, which is either a 100% Het or a normal, to a normal. You are going to either produce half 100% Hets and half normals, if you male is a Het. If he is a normal, you just bred a normal to a normal, and your babies will all be normals, Het for nothing.

So, if you produce babies from breeding a Possible Het male to a normal, how do you sell them? I personally would not put a tag on them, I would say Ball Pythons for sale from 66% PH Albino male bred to a normal female.

When does a Possible Het become a normal as far as marketing goes. To me, if you are breeding at least one 100% Het, the babies can be labeled as Possible Hets. If you are breeding Possible Hets to normals, or Possible Hets to eachother, and they do not prove out, you got normal babies. Sure, if there is a chance that a snake might carry a gene, tell the prospective owner...but where is the PH label going to end....12.5%PH?

Dave
 
i personally would not buy a snake labeled 33%het but there are newbies that do not know alot and prob would. if i saw that ad i think i may have called hat person out on it that is just getting a little crazy. i think i have a baby that is 2% het pied if any one wants to buy it lol. i think after 50%het it is a normal just my op. thats why i always say to new people wanting to get into balls do your home work and buy from a reputible breeder.
 
Let's say we breed the male Albino to a Het Albino female. We should get Albinos and 100% Het Albino babies. The visuals are visual Albinos, and every normal looking baby is a 100% Het Albino.
Click to expand...

No.

The only way to get 100% hets is to breed a Visual to a plain not het normal.

Visual x Normal = 100% het

Visual X het = Visuals & 50% hets

Visual x Visual = Visuals & 66% hets
 
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Well hell, don't know how I've held something that simple wrong for so many years:shrug01:

I'm not the only one doing it wrong & the het gambles I took just got a lot less risky :D
 
I've gotta say the FIRST thing somebody should do before even considering breeding for genetics would be to FULLY understand them ( no disrespect Annabella - I'm referring to the %33 hets ).

Just reading the basics on for instance the n.e.r.d site will of course give you a basic understanding, but if you want to become an actual player in the business and strive for excellent animals wouldn't you need to understand how they're being made?

I know for a fact there a LOT of books, and even videos on the subject of breeding and genetics.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with the OP--if you are breeding possible hets that have not been proven, the babies (to me) are considered normals. If you don't even know for sure what the parents' genetics are, how can you even begin to guess on the offspring of said parents?

And yes, any time you breed a visual recessive trait, the normal-looking offspring from that animal are all 100% hets. It's when you throw 100% hets and normals together (or 100% het X 100% het) that you get percentages of the offspring being hets.
 
Oh, and FYI Annabelle, Visual X Visual gives you all visual offspring. There are no normal looking babies produced from that pairing. ;) Hope that helps! :)
 
I've found, for me, that the easiest way to deal with possible Hets is to sell them for the price of a normal and just let the buyer know for what they are possibly Het. This way if it doesn't prove out, the buyer only paid for a normal to begin with, if it does prove out the buyer got a bonus for the price of a normal. Plus I'm not taking up space and feeding a bunch of snakes that I don't need; hell I give away left over 100% Het males just to make room!
 
Gecko_Den said:
I've found, for me, that the easiest way to deal with possible Hets is to sell them for the price of a normal and just let the buyer know for what they are possibly Het. This way if it doesn't prove out, the buyer only paid for a normal to begin with, if it does prove out the buyer got a bonus for the price of a normal. Plus I'm not taking up space and feeding a bunch of snakes that I don't need; hell I give away left over 100% Het males just to make room!
Click to expand...

Good point. Very honorable way of doing it.
 
gsrept said:
i think i have a baby that is 2% het pied if any one wants to buy it lol.
Click to expand...

ill take it! lol i can totally understand how people who are a little newer to the business could take a 66% PH to a normal and think the babies are 33% PH its easier to think of it in visual het such as pastel which is technicly het for super pastel, if you take a pastel to a pastel in a 4 egg clutch you should get 1 super, 2 pastels, and one normal. in an albino where there are no visual hets the 2 pastels and normals will look the same making the genetics 66% het with 33% visuals although out of those 66% they are either 100% het or 0%. i have now lost my train of thought lol :( im not sure if that post made sence or not but thats just my 2 cents.
 
When they say 33% are they talking about two possible hets that didn't prove out?

Correct me if I'm wrong but that would make them 100% normal, and 100% scam. No?
 
i think their talking about taking an unproven 66% to a normal jusat like taking a 100% to a normal in which the percentage gets cut in half to 50% so maybe hes thinking a 66% cut in half is 33%?
 
To me, if you are selling possible Hets, they should come from 100% Hets. A 100% Het bred to a 100% Het will give you offspring that are not visuals(66% PH), that could carry the simple recessive gene. A 100% Het bred to a normal will give you Possible Hets (50%) too. Using a 100% Het, especially one that has proven out, will give you legitimate Possible Hets. When you start breeding Possible Hets, and especially if you only breed one, and are still calling the offspring Possible Hets, I think that is far fetched at best.



Dave
 
From my perspective, I will not pay more for an animal that is a possible het. Sure it is great that the possibility exists there, but lets say I pay more for a possible het and after a couple years of breeding it does not prove out. Is the breeder that sold it for a higher price going to refund my money because it is in fact just a normal? In essence you are paying for the possibility that the gene is that but that possibility is 50% or less (in the case of a 100% het to normal breeding), it is just as likely that it is a normal.
 
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