Possible Hets...

[dturner100]

Far fetched should be labeled scam in my opinion. If you have a possible het meaning it hasn't been proven het then it may as well be normal. There for you're pretty much breeding normal to normal in many cases. To me that's nothing more than those people who import 100's of normals and sell them off as hets, and then disappear. Either way you know more people than not are sitting there with high hopes of something they'll never see.

 

[scaledverts]

I actually brought up this exact topic a couple days ago in the general herp talk forum.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170717

There are some interesting opinions expressed there too.

 

[beardedbrad612]

I see a lot of people taking about hets with snakes and I do not know if snakes work like bearded dragons with the whole het line but here is a website that has great information about genetics with dragons that I feel is very helpful! Here is the link http://www.101dragons.com/en/index.html on the left side there is a "genetics" link that is where all the info is about dragons and labels for what het it is. Don't know if this is any help but I thought I would share it!

 

[beardedbrad612]

Sorry that last post was supposed to be in a different thread in general discussion not sure how I ended up linked to the ball python section for hets!!

 

[David Reid]

Kyle, buying a PH Het is like buying a lotto ticket. If you lose, the State does not give you your money back, it is called taking a chance, or a gamble. I have heard of people proving out possible Hets, and more power to them, but they were probably not 12.5% PH's or 33% PH's....

Dave

 

[scaledverts]

Kyle, buying a PH Het is like buying a lotto ticket. If you lose, the State does not give you your money back, it is called taking a chance, or a gamble. I have heard of people proving out possible Hets, and more power to them, but they were probably not 12.5% PH's or 33% PH's....

Dave

That is exactly right. This is where my issue with paying more for possible hets comes in. In order to prove out the possible het you end up having to buy a small group of them say 3.6 or so and hope that one of the combination of male to female proves out for you. And even this will take years to do for most animals. In the end it is sometimes faster and cheaper to buy a pair of 100% hets and breed them. Of course this depends on the genes we are talking about and how much the trait is worth in the market. As I mentioned in the other thread, I understand the mentality behind getting possible hets instead of 100% hets and would not hesitate to do it. I just won't pay more for the possible hets.

Just my opinion that is all.

 

[David Reid]

I think, for the most part, Possible Hets have outlived their usefullness, kind of like the black and white 19 inch TV. Sure, it is a TV, but there are far better choices out there for almost any application.

When Pieds were $25K, Het Pieds were probably around $10K or so for a pair. Those who loved Pieds, but could not afford either of the above options, took the Possible Het route. Anyone who remembers asking, "Are they from the same clutch?" knows what I am talking about. Possible Het Pied males were affordable at around $500, but Possible Het Pied females were still about $1500 or more at one point in time. This was PH hayday, when the visuals were priced like nice new car, and Hets priced like a used car. They were a gamble, with a great payoff if you hit on them. Remember the arguements about having a better chance with a 2.3 PH group from the same clutch vs. animals from two or more clutches?

The facts are pretty obvious now, there are VERY few projects out there where a visual is $30K or so, and Hets are a third of that, meaning PH's might be a viable solution for someone without the big cash. My take, if you cannot afford a Het pair, maybe you cannot afford to get into that morph...?

PH's have a bad rap due to scammers. Some people have proven them out and swear by them. For me, PH's still have value if YOU produce your own, or if you have Possible DOUBLE Het pairs or trios. OR if you have several PH's or PDH females and a double Het or visual male. The only way I would buy a PH now, is if someone has a Spider or Pastel or name you Do Dom female that is possible het for some simple recessive gene that I have going in my projects, and the price is basically for the Co Dom animal with very little or no premium for the PH part.

Dave

 

[R. Eventide]

I've found, for me, that the easiest way to deal with possible Hets is to sell them for the price of a normal and just let the buyer know for what they are possibly Het. This way if it doesn't prove out, the buyer only paid for a normal to begin with, if it does prove out the buyer got a bonus for the price of a normal. Plus I'm not taking up space and feeding a bunch of snakes that I don't need; hell I give away left over 100% Het males just to make room!

This is how I'm planning on listing any hets that are not 50, 66, or 100%: sell as a normal with a tagline of "possible het blah" without any numbers.

---

I don't think crossing a 66% het with a normal would result in 33% hets, but I'm too braindead at the moment to do the math. Will try to do later.

But yeah, I saw that 33% het ad and immediately went on to other ads; clearly the guy has no clue about genetics.

I do not believe that possible hets have outlived their usefulness. There are tons of people out there who want to try their hand at breeding but don't have a huge budget. For these people, possible hets are golden. Also, I'd be more than willing to put down a decent amount for a 66% het of something that's really super expensive (Lavender Albino, for instance).

And just for some extra clarification (for recessives):

100% het x Normal = all 50% hets.
100% het x 100% het = visuals, 100% hets, normals (but since we can't tell hets from normals, all normals in the clutch are listed as 66% het).
100% het x Visual = visuals and 100% hets
Visual x Visual = all visuals

 

[gsrept]

i agree i think unless it says 100%het it should be possible het for any thing less this would take a lot of the confusion from the newbies thinking that it carries 50% of the gene instead of haveing a 50% chance of it having the gene.

 

[SierraMarie]

As someone in one of these threads stated that a 33% possible het = scam. After thinking about it a little bit more I tend to agree. In order to get a 66% possible het you are actually breeding 2 100% hets together. (They both have the gene and presumably 25% of their offsprings will be visual at the point). 50% will be hets and 25% will normals. So 66% of what is left is possible het.



If you take these "possible hets" and breed them you are not even guaranteed they have the gene unless one of the offsprings end up being visual. Until that happens the offspring has to be sold as a normal. Snakes once proven out are either 100% het or 0% het. If you are taken a possible het and get all normals then you haven't proved anything except it is probably not het.

People who breed possible hets with normals or other possible hets in order to say they have a 33% het for their marketing to obtain a little more money out of the buyer are abusing the odds of genetics.

I do understand the paying a little more for 66% possible het for a morph because both parents were carriers of the gene. If neither parent is proven carriers of the gene it's just a crap shoot.

 

[scaledverts]

I don't think crossing a 66% het with a normal would result in 33% hets, but I'm too braindead at the moment to do the math. Will try to do later.

The problem with the math here is that when you do your square you have to put percentages next to each gamete. I have never seen this done before, so it would be hard to show the "33%" het mathmatically. IN THEORY, half of the the 66% het parent's gametes would also be 66% het and the other half 0% leading to an average of 33%. You can see how it is more theory than actual punnet square probability. However, as I said I have never seen this done before.

I don't think that the person listing the 33% het is trying to scam people. They just want to charge more for the potential genes that the animal may have. If they were trying to scam, they would list it as het and leave it at that. Conversely, if they are not charging more for a 33% het they could just be listing the genes that are in the animals lineage as an FYI.

I agree with other's comments that after you get below 50% het there is not point in listing the gene (in the case of 33% you have a much higher probability ~66% that the animal is a normal).

 

[SnakeGirl3]

Yeah, I myself might pay a tad more for a 50% or 66% het, depending on the gene (like pied maybe, or as someone else stated, lavender albino), but it would only be a tad. $5 or $10, sure . . . $50 or more, no way. I myself sell my own 50% possible het albinos from last year at normal prices. But I might ask for/be willing to pay more for another more uncommon gene if the extra amount asked for was not in excess.

If someone lists 25% or 33% het, I would not pay more than normal prices, regardless of the gene. In this case, the parents are not even proven, so your chances of this animal proving out for you are slim to none. And honestly, unless I was looking specifically for a normal, I would completely bypass this ad; it's not enough of a percentage for me if I was looking for that het, but if I was seeking a normal, I might take a look and see if they were priced the same as normals. If I was listing such an animal myself, I would list it as a normal and ask normal prices for it.

 

[R. Eventide]

For the most part, I don't see 50% hets being sold for much (if any) more than if it were 0%. I don't know of anyone who sells 66% hets for only $5 to $10 more; might as well just leave the price where it is. I do think 66% hets should be a little more than non-hets because the snake has a really good chance of being het. Then again, it's all about the market. If people are willing to pay a little more for 66% het, then so be it.