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Potential Refund Issue Arising, Looking for Advice/Opinions.

R

RyanT

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This should be the right board for this, instead of the BOI. Long story short, I had a guy email me back in July about wanting to buy some snakes I had. He said he would need them shipped to Upstate New York. I said no problem at all. He sends me $500 as a down payment, then later informs me he's really in Canada. Now 2 problems, one I already forwarded the money from my PayPal account to another guy I owed some money to. And two, I'm not shipping to Canada. Did it once before and it was a huge mess. Domestic sales only. Understanding the situation he had put himself in, I said if I could sell the snakes soon, I would refund his money. (Although, I really have no obligation to do that since he's the one who totally screwed up).

Well, now 4 months later, the snakes in question are gone. I traded them, didn't sell them. And he's emailing me wanting me to send him a "cheque" for his $500. I told him basically that it's not gonna happen and why. I would have gladly refunded the money he pissed away a few months ago if I could have. But it didn't work out that way. I've described this situation to at least 10 people who say I am not responsible in any way for his screw up. Just want to see how many other people believe the same thing, or not. If I'm wrong, tell me. But I personally don't see why I'm obligated at all to go out of my way to make up for him lying about where he lived and then making a stupid mistake. If he would have said from the beginning he was in Canada, that would have been the end of it. Any opinions are appreciated and I also figured this is something we could all learn from. Thanks alot. Ryan.
 
Legally, you are probably not required to refund his money. He did a stupid thing. Morally, I would suggest you return 50% - 75% of his money, and tell him you're keeping the rest for the trouble and inconvenience his lies cost you. JMO
 
Normally I would have worked to refund his money, but since he knowingly tried to manipulate conditions of the sale I'd think differently. Telling you he was in Upstate Ny when he really resided in Canada is a 'no no'...

I would tell him his deposit was non-refundable, and inform him there is a lesson to be learned.... Next time I am sure he'll remember the hit he took for lying and be thruthful about his location.
 
I'm not sure if legally you are covered. You took money and didn't send anything, bottom line. Then of course it could end up being a he said/ he said issue. He may say he didn't mention he was in Canada, because he didn't realize it made any difference, or that you didn't specify 48 states only (check KS ads, many of them mention that right in the initial ad line). In my opinion only, unless you have "iron clad" proof that he knew he was trying to put one over on you, for example; e-mails stating..."I don't ship to canada" reply "I'm not in Canada, I live in Michigan". etc. then you may be liable.
The problem is not necessarily that he lives in Canada, as some people are willing to ship to Canada, it is because you don't want to ship there because you "Did it once before and it was a huge mess" so that may put it back on you, legally. Also, as $500 was only the down payment, I'm assuming a high dollar animal, and maybe legally and/or morally, you should have offered to help him find someone who would broker the export, or at least let him try to get it done.

Morally, ????? I think again it may depend on "what really happened". Not saying you did anything wrong, just that there are two sides to every story. From his end it may just be a 'lack of communication" problem. ie. "nothing was mentioned until I called saying I had the rest of the money, and gave a shipping address", and he replied "I don't ship to Canada". So unless you have "iron clad" evidence that he was purpously (fraudulently) lying to you, you may be on shaky ground legally and morally. JMHO
 
He said he would need them shipped to Upstate New York. I said no problem at all. He sends me $500 as a down payment, then later informs me he's really in Canada. Now 2 problems, one I already forwarded the money from my PayPal account to another guy I owed some money to. And two, I'm not shipping to Canada. Did it once before and it was a huge mess. Domestic sales only. Understanding the situation he had put himself in, I said if I could sell the snakes soon, I would refund his money. (Although, I really have no obligation to do that since he's the one who totally screwed up).

Well, now 4 months later, the snakes in question are gone. I traded them, didn't sell them. And he's emailing me wanting me to send him a "cheque" for his $500. I told him basically that it's not gonna happen and why. I would have gladly refunded the money he pissed away a few months ago if I could have.
Click to expand...

Ryan,

This person obviously mislead you with his location. Do you have TOS written on somewhere where you stated that the $500 were a non-refundable deposit? If not, I agree with John in that you may be liable. Did you state upfront you were willing to ship only within the US? Is it in writing somewhere? From the other poster you probably noticed thus far that the key words are “in writing”. No conversation over the phone alone will get you out of this agreement. The third question is you said that you traded the snakes. Was this before or after learning that he wanted you to ship to Canada? In MHO this makes a big difference. And if you traded them it was probably for something of similar value that can be converted into cash. Are you in a position of part of that “merchandise” and collect the $500 or any middle-ground amount to which you both agree upon? From now on I would suggest any communication with him should be made in writing.

Regards
 
The fact that you also said that "If you could sell the snakes soon, you would refund his money" may also come back at you. If you were willing to refund his money at some point, and then willlingly traded the snakes instead of selling.....it could be argued it's your tough luck you don't have the money.

I understand he lied to you, and though it isn't right, I'm thinking it just may be a whole lot easier to just refund his money, sadly. Maybe you need to rethink your ads, and clearly state NO SHIPPING OUT OF THE US. Not to mention making sure you have some sort of a written policy on refunding (or not refunding) deposits.
 
After some more thought on the issue, I believe you entered into a verbal contract with him when you said, "If I could sell the snakes soon, I would refund his money".

You traded them, but it's really the same difference.

I would just give the guy his money back, possibly minus 10%, for having to feed and take care of animal(s) that you expected him to take 4 months ago.
 
LOL, as Richie stated......"after some more thought on the issue".....I also had more thoughts. I think that money is rightfully his. Some issues that made me change my mind.
1. Your "If I sell them I will give a refund" as mentioned by the others.
2. The non refundable deposit issue Chris brought up, can be argued that it doesn't apply. Almost all NR deposit clauses (as related to the herp industry) state money refunded if I can't supply the animal. Technically, because you can't deliver the animal to Canada, you can't supply the animal (see also, #3)
3. If I order a stilleto knife from a catalog, and the manufacturer can't send it to me because they are illegal in CA, they can't keep my money. even if I knew I was breaking a law (the state of CA may be able to charge me with trying to break a law, but the company still can't keep my money).
4. I also think it can be broken up into two issues, ownership of the animal and method of getting the animal to the person who paid for said animal/owner (assuming he would have paid the balance). Think of the threads we have seen where someone bought an animal then when they found out the person delivers the animal through USPS, they either demanded a refund (and should recieve it) or they make other arrangments, like having it shipped on their FED EX/Delta/UPS account, or picking the animal up. He paid (by deposit, and eventually paying balance had it got that far) for the animal, delivery is now the problem. I feel, as I stated in prior post, that he should have been offered help in importing the animal, or given the chance to see if he can find someone to import it. If there would have been no help found, I think it would go back to issues 1, 2, 3.
 
Ryan,

As long as we don’t have the other party to give his side of the story please clarify something for me. What’s the order in which the events actually take place?

1. You received payment (that one’s first no doubt)
2. You Paypaled debt
3. You hear about shipping to Canada
4. You trade the snakes

Is 2 through 4 the way things took place?

Regards.
 
RyanT said:
If I'm wrong, tell me.
Click to expand...
You are wrong. 100% absolutely WRONG. You could not possibly be more wrong.

You did not earn that money, it is not yours. The guy gave you money for snakes, and YOU decided not to sell them to him and keep his money. Whether or not he "lied" to you about being a Canadian citizen is not relevant. It is not your money. As far as I am concerned, this is a simple case of theft.

I find it sad that your conscience is worth only $500 to you.
 
Apparently everyone else missed this:
RyanT said:
He said he would need them shipped to Upstate New York. I said no problem at all.
Click to expand...
The guy did not say "I want them shipped to Canada" at any point in time.

He sends me $500 as a down payment, then later informs me he's really in Canada.
Click to expand...
I seem to have missed the part where this guy asked you to ship across the border or changed the deal.
 
Ryan,

After carefully reading your post here is what you stated:

1. He sends me $500 as a down payment, then later informs me he's really in Canada.
2. Now 2 problems, one I already forwarded the money from my PayPal account to another guy I owed some money to. And two, I'm not shipping to Canada. Did it once before and it was a huge mess. Domestic sales only.
3. Understanding the situation he had put himself in, I said if I could sell the snakes soon, I would refund his money. (Although, I really have no obligation to do that since he's the one who totally screwed up).
4. Well, now 4 months later, the snakes in question are gone. I traded them, didn't sell them.

a. He sends the $500 as a down payment. Was he informed it was non-refundable? Was he informed that you only shipped within the continental US?

b. Most of us have agreed in the past that the money should not be spent before the deal is finalized, that is, the snakes arrive safe and sound to destination.

c. When you were alerted about having to ship to Canada you still had the snakes (statement 3 above), and you offered to sell them to repay him. It seems you then decided otherwise and traded the snakes. In my opinion you owe this person the money in full. But it would actually be better to hear his side of the story. Did you inform him about this thread?

Thanks
 
Serpwidgets said:
Apparently everyone else missed this:The guy did not say "I want them shipped to Canada" at any point in time.
I seem to have missed the part where this guy asked you to ship across the border or changed the deal.
Click to expand...

Right now to me, this is the most important question. Did the buyer just inform you that he actually lived in Canada, or did he want to change the shipping location as well.
If he still wanted you to ship them to upstate NY, then you've got a problem for sure, you owe him $500.
Everyone is assuming he changed the terms and wanted them shipped to Canada, but you never actually said this was the case, just that he lived there.
 
OK. Let me try this again. I didn't realize it was gonna be such a big ordeal. I know I should always assume that. I love posting stuff on here. It's like that game where you say one thing in the beginning and then see how it turns out at the end of the line. After everyone adds their 2 cents, it's a totally different issue.

Here goes, he emailed me back in July and said he was interested and wanted the snakes shipped to upstate NY. We began talking about everything and on the second or third day after initial contact he sent me the money to hold them and was going to pay them off over a short period of time. I can't remember exactly how long. I told him to consider them sold and took down the ads.

Then a day or 2 after sending the money he mentions being in Canada and I was confused. After realizing he was in Canada, right over the border, we got into the whole issue of customs and problem with shipping over the border...many different subjects. He was more concerned than I was. I said I could try shipping them and we'll see what happens but he was actually the one who didn't want to chance it. He tried contacting FedEx locations in NY to see if they could hold the package there and he could make the drive to pick it up, things like that. This was 4 months ago. I don't remember everything like it just happened.

Anyway, he was more the one saying that it wasn't a good idea to transcend borders in case something happened. I just brought it to his attention and said that if I had known he was actually in Canada, I would have backed out of the deal immediately. He understood that since I had already sent the money somewhere else and it was his mistake that I couldn't return the money right away, although I would have if I could. I said that if I could find a buyer for them, I would send it back to him. I contacted him twice between July and October asking if he had come up with anything and still wanted them, etc. The last email I remeber from him said he would ask a friend if they might want them and could figure something out that way. I never heard back from him after that and had really pretty much forgotten about it. I figured it was pretty much understood that he made a mistake. He wasn't pushy about anything at all. Over 3 months, I didn't find another buyer and finally traded them. Then he emails out of nowhere saying that he hasn't seen any ads for them lately and wants his money now. It just seems like he wants something all of a sudden and thinks he can come collect from me. I had pretty much forgotten about it and thought we had already reached an understanding. I personally don't feel I owe him anything. Just wanted to see how other people would handle the situation.
 
He understood that since I had already sent the money somewhere else and it was his mistake that I couldn't return the money right away, although I would have if I could.
Click to expand...

Regardless of WHY he wants his money now, you clearly said that you WOULD send him the money if you could, right? So.........why have you changed your mind? Nothing has changed about the deal, except more time has passed and you still don't have his money....?
 
I didn't "change my mind". The circumstances changed. And as far as the deal not changing, it changed as soon as he was in Canada instead of NY and then deciding he didn't want me to try shipping them. I haven't done anything wrong. There was no wrong-doing on either part. The mistake he made was pretending he was in the US in order to make it seem like shipping would be no problem. I don't feel I'm responsible for his unwise desicion. I did what I could.
 
I guess what's most surprising is you act shocked that he actually wants his money back. $500 is no small amount, I couldn't imagine a customer who received nothing not wanting it back. I just can't grasp your line of thinking that he knew he made a mistake and had decided to write off the $500 as a lesson learned or something and you just get a free 500 bucks out of it.
You apparently really believed that you just got to keep the money and forget about the whole thing, with his blessing evidentally.

The first mistake was spending the money before the deal was finished. We all know that's the only acceptable way to conduct a transaction if you are working on a non existant budget where you can't cover the possibility of a refund if you spend the customer's money.
Regardless, the bottom line is he sent you $500 and got nothing in return. The other factors are pretty much irrelevant. His money should obviously be returned regardless of the other factors. He didn't receive any goods, therefore is entitled to his money back.

Besides, you did state that you would send him his money back when you got it. Why would you think that you no longer had to? You just don't get free money like that.
I would tend to think the time that passed was just him not bothering you and giving you time to sell the animals. He wasn't seeing any ads for them and figured you had sold them. The fact that you traded them is not his problem, you're the one who spent the original $500 to begin with.
 
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