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prehistoric pet (Jay)

My only knowledge of the parties involved have been e-mail exchanges with both Will and PrehistoricPets about animals they both had for sale at different points in time.

Unless Will has any sort of written documentation (at least an "I owe you" handwritten, dated piece of paper signed by Michael) as to his ownership, and or unbiased witnesses that can state the same, it seems as if he might be out of luck. In fact there are people saying just exactly the opposite, as he apparently stated in public the snake belonged to Michael. In all honesty, I can understand why Will would have said that, if he truly believed he was going to collect the money. In my opinion, although Will might be the rightful owner, it might be difficult for him to prove it.

Regards.
 
Jon I did not talk tou you out side or inside tinley park.
I have evey legal right to persue and reacquire my property.
got it JON AND EVERTONE who doesn't understand the law.
what are you lieing because you are to get first offspring of my animals.
 
First things first...
Maybe before you consider purchasing any more animals you might want to pick up this first...
dictionary.gif


Will it was right outside the hotel...you and Michael had come to Tinley with Tom Eugenis...who also got scammed by Michael ...for $7k he got 1.1 6-7' lav. albino retics and an incubator (Sportsman Pro right???) although his original deal with Michael was for 1.0 albino tiger retic and a tiger het albino female. When I talked to you Will you were outside with Michael and 2 of the guys from Freedom Breeder...Michael had called me over and said we needed to talk because I had hinted to people that I thought Michael was selling animals that had been sent to him to care for, breeding etc... Honestly I thought that Michael was going to swing at me...you explained that the animal was in fact his...with your reassurance I went back into the bar to have some more cocktails... Maybe 15-20 minutes later someone flicked a lit cigarette at Michael.... does this prove that I was there? What do I have to lie about Will? And no I am not interested in getting any offspring from that calico should it still be alive...
If that isn't enough... I seem to remember you were wearing a blue flannel shirt.....
BTW do you recall Michael yelling "Hey Jon Jon I need to have a word with you!" ???
Also didn't Michael trade you a gila for the calico? Now you wouldn't be keeping venomous in Illinois now would you? Inquiring minds want to know...
Cheers!
Jon Tarutis
 
Finally.......

Thanks to Jon Tarutis, we finally have the truth. As a matter of fact....I don't know Jon and I didn't see the whole thing outside of the Tinley hotel, but me and a few friends of mine were in the hotel lobby Saturday night and we saw to guys walking around like a couple of tough guys and one of my friends said "that's Michael Whitefeather" ...... we had read about him here on the BOI before Daytona and we had been wondering who he was and the guys we were meeting in Chicago know a lot of the people in the reptile business. Jon, it sure is nice to see someone have the courage to speak out and say the truth....it seems a lot of people that know Whitefeather have sat back and said nothing. A BIG breeder recommended people to do business with Whitefeather right here on the BOI. It seems to me that Whitefeather has scammed a lot of people and Will Slough should be going after him for what he thinks he is owed. Will Slough should not be coming on here and accusing people of lying when it is he who made the bad decisions in the first place. And according to the law, you have to have proof that you gave those animals to Whitefeather, and that he sold them, and that the people that he sold them to KNOWINGLY bought them as stolen goods. The law states that anyone that KNOWINGLY bought stolen goods has to give them back, but these people in this case did not know that they were stolen, and they actually have a good chance of winning in a court of law.....if it ever goes that far......if the person suing for the animals,Will Slough, loses the case, then he has to pay everyones legal fees....I'm not sure it is worth taking innocent people to court when the guilty party is sitting in a cell somewhere rotting away....and probably thinking of some more scams he can pull when he gets out.

Jon Tarutis....you should be proud of yourself for coming forward and (as Will Slough says), doing the right thing. People in this business have to stop letting the morally corrupt people in this business get away with lying, stealing and cheating. Whitefeather is clearly a guy to stay away from.

Grace Winchester
 
I know Jay from Prehistoric Pets and he has always treated me very well. He would even let me give monthly checks in advance for animals that I could not afford. I have not been into the shop in a long while and donot know Whitefeather or Will. I would think that he would do whatever he has to to take care of this.... But....
From what he says about going to dinner with Will and Whitefeather makes we wonder.. What in the world did he do wrong? He traded animals with Wil's business partner and even went to dinner with the both of them afterword... Should he have been clairvoyant and known that later Will's business partnership would not work out and that the animal that was traded would now be considered, "not good enough". I would think that if their were any problems with the trade it would have been addressed at Outback Steakhouse or possibly the following day at the show with the vendor badge Jay gave you. So now Jay is supposed to just give "YOUR ANIMALS" back because "YOUR" business partnership did not work out? Would you want to take a $7500(?) loss because someone made a bad choice in business partners?
I have a few questions...
1) Why did Micheal Whitefeather have your Pythons?
2)Why was any disapproval with the trade not brought up with Jay at dinner or even the following day?
3)Why even make partners with someone that has such a bad reputation?
I could be way off base here, but from what is in this post and from what Jay stated, I really do not know what Jay did wrong.
Could someone please enlighten me????
Thanks, Tom Baker
 
I am not going to rant and rave about Whitefeather and I might speak out of turn, but I am going to answer some of the questions that Tom brought up.

Q #1. As I know it, came second hand, Whitefeather had/has Will's snakes because Will is not physically able to care for them....Will can explain it if he chooses. That in itself seems ok to me.
Q #3. From what I know, Will has known Whitefeather for quite some time. Who knows, Whitefeather may not have even been known to scam people prior to Will and Whitefeather making these arangements (if that is what you want to call it). I feel it was more of a adventageous move by Whitefeather for taking care of the "big" snakes Will could not take care of.
From talking to other people, Whitefeather treated those that he SAW in person quite well....I guess for an undertermined amount of time. Until this came up, it was people that dealt with Whitefeather on the INTERNET that got screwed.
I do not know Will, but I do not see how Will did wrong with his dealings with Whitefeather, I do agree, in hindsight, Will made a bad choice.

Now, I have a few questions here regarding this deal. Couldn't this be resolved with Jay (if indeed it was a trade) to just have all snakes returned to the original owners (whoever had whatever prior to this deal)? This way nobody is out anything and everyone gets the snakes back. Yes, some people would be disappointed for not having what they wanted, but at least it would be resolved. Just a thought.
As far as "knowingly purchasing stolen goods", I have a scenario that was never responded to in another post I made on another thread. If I bought a car from someone, had no clue that it was stolen; in other words I did not KNOWINGLY BY A STOLEN CAR, that I would not have to return it/give it up once it came to be known that the car was indeed stolen? If I went to a pawn shop, bought a stereo (or anything) and at some point it came up that it was stolen, you really think I could keep it for good? I think that is far from correct. Regardless of what people might feel, that LAW would come to retrieve the item in question and I would be out my $. Now, I would say that if I did not knowingly by a stolen car that I cannot be held liable in the laws eyes. Same with Jay, I do not think for a minute, at this time, that Jay went out and bought/traded for a snake/s that were stolen. I also do not feel that he should be able to keep it regardless of whether he knew it or not.
Come on folks, like I said, I do not know Will, Jay, Andy (other than talking on the net/email with Andy), but PLEANTY of peole know that the ONLY reason Whitefeather had most and/or all of the rare pythons that he had was because he was "caring" for Will's snakes. This is NOT fact that just came out from my little post here. I can get plenty of people to come on here and post that they heard this RIGHT FROM WHITEFEATHER.
Interested in hearing responses.
 
sorry, here is the other page I found....

http://exchanges.state.gov/culprop/18-2314.html

here is another cool webpage

http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/white_collar_crimes/crime_property.htm

Mind you, if it is missed, this is a FEDERAL OFFENSE since it went over state lines OR over a certain $ amount, IF indeed it is the case.

Here is a page on recovering stolen property. It came from this link.
http://www.sanantonio.gov/sapd/RITEprotect.htm#recover

This is copied and pasted from the above link.


RECOVERING STOLEN PROPERTY

HOW DOES R.I.T.E. PROTECT HELP RECOVER STOLEN ITEMS ? If your belongings are stolen, call the police immediately. Provide the officer with a list, from your R.I.T.E. PROTECT Inventory (see above), including the Description and Markings (Serial Numbers and R.I.T.E. Numbers) of each item that was stolen.
The police will enter this information into a Stolen Property Database, which is electronically linked and cross-checked with Pawn Databases, which pawn shops file electronically with the Police Department daily.

If there is a "match", based on your Serial/R.I.T.E. numbers, the police can recover your property from the pawn shops, plus retrieve information on the person who pawned it. In addition, police officers can more effectively trace and recover your marked property from flea markets and other sites, IF the serial number and/or R.I.T.E. numbers were included in the Stolen Property Report.

Another.....

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/31/sections/section_662.html
 
Sorry for all the posts.

I just wanted to add that I am NOT against Jay. He is probably a victum as much as the rest of the people I know and/or have heard of. I just thought the info that I found MIGHT help both parties. One get his stuff (if law permits it) and one stay out of trouble (if the law wold inforce such).
 
Brian,
Their was no mention of any problems at dinner. Their was no mention of any problems the following day. Will knew about the trade... He obviously found out later that his partner was a scammer and a theif, but what does that have to do with Jay. I still don't know why the problems weren't addressed til later and then why is this all of the sudden Jay's problem? If these animals were given to Micheal, and obviously traded with Will's knowledge (dinner conversation) then it is ridiculous to refer to these as stolen animals. Also, if Micheal sold Jay's animal then it would not be as easy as just switching back, because someone would be out some serious cash.
Thanks, Tom Baker
 
Tom,
I do agree with the dinner "arguement" you take. Only will can answer that.
As far as Whitefeather selling the snakes that were traded, I missed that. The story is hard to follow.
After reading what I found doing searches of the laws regarding theft/stollen prop./poss. of stollen prop., I just posted the links because I would hate Jay to get in trouble for something when I do not believe his intentions were bad.
I just feel witht he info I have found that Jay could be "bumbed" if it came down to anything like what is listed in the links/copies I provided.

I really am not taking sides. I do not know either party. I look at things as nuetral as I can. There are all sorts of arguments that could be made on BOTH parties sides.
-Did Will have reason to believe Whitefeather was really going to do this? Who knows!
-If Will was drinking, did he remember the conversation? Who knows!
I could go on and on. You do have a valid point regarding dinner though. I am not sure what to make of that issue.

Like I said, I truely believe Jay is as mucha victum to Whitefeather as everyone else I know and have heard of.
 
This is what the law would follow in Arizona and Arizona Laws are based on California Laws by the way. It does not matter if the person purchasing the stolen merchandise knew it was stolen or not. Once it is proven to be stolen, it must be returned immediately. The true owner is not obligated to compensate the current possesor. He would need to sue/prosecute the individual that sold him the stolen property.

If the current possesor continues to posses the stolen property, they are guilty of theft by controlling the property of another that they knew to be stolen.

For example, your car is stolen. The thief switches the VIN and sells it on the street to some innocent third party. The police find your car. The person currently in possession of it must give it back, immediately. You do not have to compensate him for it, it is rightfully yours. The purchaser is out of luck for buying a hot car. It is no different with snakes. Both are considered property, period.

If Will can prove those snakes are stolen and Jay refuses to give them back, Jay can find himself in some serious legal trouble. The burden of proof is on Will though.
 
Bruce,
I understand the curiousity factor, but it mat be quite easy for people to stay clear of him. From what I was told, Wisconsin has the "3 strike rule" so it may be a while before he gets out since he has had the same charges so many times.
Secondly, a picture of him may not do much since almost all deals done these days are over the net. I wouldn't be able to go asking people for their pic every time I do a deal just because I was wondering if it was Whitefeather posting ads under a different name.
From what I was told by my friend who had his problems with Whitefeather and drove to see him, he is approx. 6'+, with a long pony tail, approx. 225lbs, and is Native American. Not too many people in this industry match that look......if you were to see him at a show.
Who knows though.
 
Ps. I forgot to say was mike also sold the tiger albino female that he traded my snake for (with out me knowing) for $3000.
Click to expand...

Not a bad deal eh?

That girl is doing great too.......

(with out me knowing)
Click to expand...

I can't yet muster the words to reply to this.
 
Maybe I missed something

I didn't recall reading if the police were ever notified of this crime.
Wasn't there a partnership involved here somewhere? If a partnership was involved, then perhaps it would be a civil matter and there would be no stolen property.
Just thinking outloud.
 
Will,

It seems as though you, at least for some specified period of time, authorized Michael Whitefeather to conduct business with your animals. When you had dinner with Jay & Michael at Tinley, why did you not immediately question the two of them on what deal was transacted, and inform Jay that Michael had no authorization to trade your animals? You obviously knew that your animals were involved?

It really does seem as if hindsight was 20/20 here, and you made some choices you regret. I would think that it's most likely you have a civil issue against Michael Whitefeather.
 
ms_terese,
That was my point exactly. If Will knew about the trade at dinner and nothing was said.... Which leads us to believe he allowed Whitefeather to do business with his animals. This has nothing to do with Jay. Jay had a trade agreement that he followed through with and had dinner with both parties involved following this transaction. His problem is with Michel Whitefeather and to refer to these animals as stolen property is ridiculous and a very ignorant comment. Could you imagine the ramifications this could have on a whole new level of scamming by so-called "partners". Research and know who you decide to make a partner. Again, if I am missing something completely mabe someone can fill me in, but it seems cut and dry to me.
Thanks, Tom Baker
 
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