primate haters

[Mokele]

You are being so disrespectful and rude!

Respect is earned, and lost. Displaying poor animal care and disregard for their well-being is a quick way to lose it.

Have you ever raised an iguana? In most cases, it's not as easy as you think. And yea, google can tell you WHAT to do, but most often NOT HOW to do it. And I personally take offense to this post because I raised one for 12 years, without google. So does this make me a slightly less stupid moron?

I've cared for them at all life stages, and raised other, smaller, herbivorous reptiles. It's not hard, and cannot be used as a reference for "great knowledge".

CrazyLady has been extremely respectful throughout all of these posts, while you have sit there calling names, beating her down, and just straight talkin .

I'll respect her as soon as she demonstrates the ability to *learn* and to reconsider her opinions. Given that even sea-slugs are capable of learning, I fail to see why a human who is apparently incapable should be regarded any more highly.

This isn't about her poor little feelings; it's about the animal's well-being. If it hurts her feelings to be told the facts, so be it - the animal's life is more important than her self-esteem.

And even if she doesn't/can't learn, others who are considering a primate will see this thread and realize that it's a bad idea and these animals should *never* be in private care.

If you're the sort of person who can see animal abuse and *not* get angry, well, I don't think much of you as a human being. And make no mistake, no matter how much this poster or others want to fool themselves, this is abuse. This is well-established fact that any primate zookeeper will agree on without a moment's hesitation. Willful ignorance is not an excuse for her behavior or the damage it will inflict upon these animals.

 

[callak]

I would have to agree with Mokele. While it may be a little strong worded, it is the truth. More people need to talk to these people like that, maybe they would wake the up and realize that if everyone is telling you it's wrong and won't end well they might have a point. If you had ever worked as a zookeeper or in a sanctuary/rescue with these animals you would understand. I have done both. These animals need way more than the OP could probably ever give. Now it is possible she is rich and has another 100k to blow on them, but I highly doubt it. For instance, she stated that she spent 3k on an enclosure for the animal. Now that may seem like a lot of money to spend on enclosure, but it is not. An enclosure to house that animal along with more should be running in the 10-15k and up just to be adequate. That's just one reason, the other's have already been stated. The shear fact that she cannot see why it was wrong to allow someone else in her house while she was not there with a large dog and a free roaming reptile should be enough. Her attitude is the same as thousands of others that refuse to acknowledge that primates cannot safely and humanely be kept as pets. Which is why you see the emotion in peoples posts, thousands are kept in sanctuaries or been because of people who think they should be a pet. It is disgusting that people will put the well being, safety and lives of these animals and people close to them on the chopping block just so they can have that cute monkey at home.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Lets not forget the primates that are dressed in baby clothes and fed lolly pops, sugar filled treats etc that are not only silly looking monkeys but have diabetes as well.

Delusions of well intentions pave the same road to hell as just plain ol good intentions. When the truth hurts, just means it struck those nerves the person hearing it was ignoring.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

I suggest that you visit any reputable sanctuary that takes in primates that were formerly pets. You'll hear how repeated over and over how people think they are grand pets, until they reach 1-4 years old, when they become mature and begin attacking and escaping. You'll hear how improper raising due to NO MATERNAL CARE will make the monkeys into socially inept creatures incapable of having a relationship with other primates so they are then sentanced to living alone for the next 25-60 YEARS.
Usually a "pet" primate is first torn away from the mother(anywhere from days to weeks old), then sold to a new owner who will subject it to clothing, poor diet, no social life(with regards to primate social life, not human social life), take it around to many other humans, exposing it to dieseases and stresses. The owner is NOT a substitute for a mother monkey, and NOT a substitute for the proper social interactions of it's own kind.
Then advance to 1-4 years later, and the monkey is no longer managable, it's had it's teeth removed(or 'filed'), been through multiple infections due to being diapered, chained, collared, harnessed and kept in too small or inadequate caging. Now the poor thing will be either locked into a smaller easier to clean cage, and given whatever food the owner decides to toss in, now that it no longer is a cute "baby". Alone in a small cage, inadequate diet, inadequate sunlight, no socialization, it will live for more years, until it either dies from neglect, or self-mutilates enough to die from injuries or infection.
If it is slightly more lucky, it might get passed on to a dealer, who will sell it to someone else clueless, and get treated the same.. or worse, get sent to a breeder who will perpuate the system, IF the animal is not too badly damaged to even breed.
If it is extremely lucky, it MIGHT find it's way to a reputable sanctuary who will neither sell it, nor breed it, and will house it for the rest of it's life, after correcting whatever it can of the abuse and neglect(physically and emotionally). That means the sanctuay will pick up the bill for the care.. from $25K a year upwards of $100K or more depending on the species and the amount of neglect that needs tobe undone.
No. I'm not going to post "congrats" because she bought a baby lemur. I will however endevour to clue her in to the truth of owning primates. I am unwilling to believe that she will somehow manage to keep primates in the manner in which they NEED to be kept to be healthy creatures, especially when I'm basing my opinion of her and her abilities off her own postings, where she is happy to have a baby to put into diapers, and is more concerned with the idea that she WANTS a monkey pet, rather than being concerned with what it NEEDS.
She indicated that the dog was in the hosue often, meaning she willingly let the dog around the lizard before, when she was in residence and in control of the situation. She further indicates she has children, which makes having a primate even more of a risk, especially since she obviously doesn't understand the social interactions that primates have ingrained into them.
She is a risk, and when she is in the media spotlight for HER exotics issues, WE will reap the rewards in restrictive laws, and bans, since we will all be painted with the same brush as HER.

 

[AvandisFifth187]

Respect is earned, and lost. Displaying poor animal care and disregard for their well-being is a quick way to lose it.

Ok, I understand this. I also believe that respect is earned and lost. Whether she is "Displaying poor animal care and disregard for their well-being..." is not proper justification of the name calling and personal attacks that you have launched on her and somewhat on me.

This isn't about her poor little feelings; it's about the animal's well-being. If it hurts her feelings to be told the facts, so be it - the animal's life is more important than her self-esteem.

I understand it's about the animal's well-being, and I agree. I do believe, though she hasn't gotten in done in quite a proper time frame, she is trying to give it the proper care that it needs. I see no one decided to touch the point that the animal is still in a better situation than if it was with the breeders that everyone says are so abusive to the animals.

If you're the sort of person who can see animal abuse and *not* get angry, well, I don't think much of you as a human being.

I am the sort of person that sees animal abuse and gets angry. I've been invovled in many cases of righting wrongs done to animals, including helping to coordinate rescues of animals, helping out at nearby sanctuaries, and sending letters to prosecuters about abuse cases that I have read about from numerous sources.

The shear fact that she cannot see why it was wrong to allow someone else in her house while she was not there with a large dog and a free roaming reptile should be enough.

Yea, I don't agree that a dog should have been there with the free-roaming reptile. Have I missed it somewhere that she specifically said she was ok with the dog being in her house with the reptile when she was gone? Did she give permission for it? Please, if I have missed it then point it out to me so I can see where I am wrong.

Lets not forget the primates that are dressed in baby clothes and fed lolly pops, sugar filled treats etc that are not only silly looking monkeys but have diabetes as well.

Trust me, I've delt with these issues and I completely disagree with it. I hate what they do to primates in movies and shows, etc.

I suggest that you visit any reputable sanctuary that takes in primates that were formerly pets.

I haven't just visited, I've helped out at one. A friend of mine down the road used to run a small sanctuary. He agrees with me. He says she has all the best intentions and seems to be going in the right direction, she just needs/needed to get it all done in a better timeframe.

Usually a "pet" primate is first torn away from the mother(anywhere from days to weeks old), then sold to a new owner who will subject it to clothing, poor diet, no social life(with regards to primate social life, not human social life), take it around to many other humans, exposing it to dieseases and stresses. The owner is NOT a substitute for a mother monkey, and NOT a substitute for the proper social interactions of it's own kind.

I haven't seen any indication that crazylady has subjected it to the common and abusive clothing or poor diet. She is trying to help the social life idea, but like I said not in the right time frame. I haven't seen or heard anything on here about her taking it around a bunch of humans and exposing it to all kinds of things. It doesn't seem like she is using the lemur as a substitute baby, and I don't think she is trying to substitute herself as a friend. She already said she was getting a small colony. Yes, not in a great time-frame, but it is still being done.

Did you notice how, even though I disagreed with alot and agreed with some, of what you guys said, I wasn't calling names or launching personal attacks? Did you notice that, Mokele? Try it. Makes you look like a much better person.

She is a risk, and when she is in the media spotlight for HER exotics issues, WE will reap the rewards in restrictive laws, and bans, since we will all be painted with the same brush as HER.

Do you own primates? I don't think, even if she does come into the spotlight, that whatever laws, if ANY, would be put on other exotics. I don't think anyone outside of the primate world would be painted with the same brush as her. If she does get into some , it would only be granting what you want. It would put more breeders out of business and end their wrong practices, it would greatly restrict the number of people getting primates and not caring for them properly, and it would help restrict the trade of these animals, leaving more to the wild. What would be the problem with this? If she does get into , don't you think the animal would be put somewhere that has the kind of care everyone keeps saying the animal is not currently getting?

 

[Wolfy-hound]

The problem is that she will give owning exotics a bad name. Look at the currant trend in attempts to ban exotics wholesale, instead of just poor owners, or certain species. If the primate is taken from her and put into a sanctuary, that's more for the sanctuarys to take care of.
It's not better for her to support the breeders by BUYING a baby. That just supports them making more.
She is not trying to give it proper socialization. Not at all. She wants a baby to play with, and when it's older, she'll get another one. When they don't get along, she'll dump the non-cute older animal, and have a baby again.
It's been seen over and over. And I don't see how any responsible sanctuary would agree that she is doing it correctly.
She said in one of her posts that the dog HAD been around them before with no issues. She is exactly like almost every single primate buyer out there, and the same issues will arise, and the same thing is going to happen again.
I don't agree with calling names.. and I don't do it. But I will say she is doing wrong by her baby lemur, and I feel bad that it will go through the same horrifying life as all the other "pet" primates out there being subjected to the "mon-kid" mentality.

 

[Lucille]

. But I will say she is doing wrong by her baby lemur

I tend to agree.

We take care of animals, and the interaction somehow satisfies us. We keep animals, at some level, for the happiness they bring to us, as well as for all we provide for them. I don't think under ordinary circumstances, that there is anything wrong with that.

But when you subtract from the equation the kind of care that takes into consideration what the critters need now, and in the future, emotionally and physically, when you subtract that, then the critter becomes no more than a Barbie or a Cabbage Patch Doll, to be used and then outgrown and discarded, well that IS wrong IMHO.

 

[AvandisFifth187]

Look at the currant trend in attempts to ban exotics wholesale, instead of just poor owners, or certain species.

Yes but this trend is due to larger issues out there and caused largely by larger groups. Sorry I just overused the word "large" there. Groups like PETA are at battle with the humane society, politicians and other lawmakers are making biased decisions based on lack of knowledge, and this is where the larger part of the trend in in attempts to ban exotics comes from. I think it us up to us as a whole to help get the message out there that exotics are ok so long as you know what you are doing. I know someone is going to jump on that statement now using it against the lemur-owner, but it's just my oppinion.

Just look up how many cases there have been of lemur, or in fact other exotics attacking people, wnad what kind of bans or trends come out of that. I did. I found that it doesn't effect the exotics community as a whole. If I'm wrong about that, please correct me and provide your research showing me where I am wrong., because I am having trouble finding it.

She is not trying to give it proper socialization. Not at all. She wants a baby to play with, and when it's older, she'll get another one. When they don't get along, she'll dump the non-cute older animal, and have a baby again.

In the off-board communication I've had with her, it doesn't seem like she wants a baby to play with, especially considering the children already present. I think she is trying, and like I said, it isn't quite in the proper timeframe.

I don't agree with calling names.. and I don't do it. But I will say she is doing wrong by her baby lemur, and I feel bad that it will go through the same horrifying life as all the other "pet" primates out there being subjected to the "mon-kid" mentality.

Wolfy, I think you are a very cool person and I highly respect the fact that you are going about your posts in a decent matter. I also have to thank you for not name calling... reading lines and lines of insults, no matter how cleverly worded they are, just gets old. I do have to say though, if she does what you say she does, than I am wrong. Not a big deal to me, very big and bad deal to the lemur. Until that happenes, if that happens, then please don't start making assumptions about what someone will do.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

IF she does right by it, then she'll have gone against what she posted.
Right now there is a couple of different legislations that are trying to be passed, and poor care of exotics that land in sanctuarys, and are released(small percentage) and are taken to humane societys and pounds ARE contributing to the general public believing that banning exotics is a good thing.
BTW, the Humane Society is right in bed with PETA. The Humane Society as a nationwide organization is against exotics in general.

I refuse to wait around and assume that someone that bought a primate as a PET is going to somehow turn that animal's life around, when she has not stated anything that makes me think she'll do anything other than what I outlined. I would just as soon assume that the legislators will decide that large boids won't invade Rhode Island, and that we should all be free to continue owning our snakes and lizards. Being proactive is the only way to continue to having our hobby.

 

[Seamus Haley]

BTW, the Humane Society is right in bed with PETA. The Humane Society as a nationwide organization is against exotics in general.

The Humane Society of the United States is a PETA style rabidly anti-human organization.

Not every Humane Society is "The Humane Society of the United States" or in any way affiliated with them. The majority of the organizations bearing the name are animal welfare organizations that deal with adoptions, low cost spaying and neutering and the care of abandoned, neglected or abused animals.

It's important to draw a distinction between the organizations, as the individual Humane Societies are often not an enemy to responsible pet ownership.

Although quite a few of them would likely have something to say about filing down the teeth of a highly social, highly intelligent animal, shoving it in a cheap cage (three grand, come ON! That's a pitiful amount of money for a large enclosure, that's half the cost of a big bird cage) and cramming it into the behavioral/social role the owner wants, rather than the one it actually should fill.

 

[AvandisFifth187]

It's important to draw a distinction between the organizations, as the individual Humane Societies are often not an enemy to responsible pet ownership.

Thank you Seamus, I forgot to bring that up. Let me correct myself. Alot of humane societies are at odds with PETA.

 

[TattooLost]

Wow...

Just wow...

You know... this really makes me sad that we, as reptile keepers, can be so judgmental. I know a lot of people that think I'm crazy or stupid for keeping what THEY consider to be dangerous pets in my house. I know a lot of reptile keepers who think people who keep hots are crazy or stupid. I see a lot of people and politicians right now that think this way and want to stop all of us from owning anything but what THEY think is safe. That mindset right there might make our hobby illegal.

And then I find this thread, and see people bashing someone for wanting to keep a monkey. Not really even trying to convince her it's wrong, but just making personal judgments on her sanity, her knowledge, or her motives? Is this what it's all about?

I can understand if people don't think monkeys make a good pet. I can understand if people think my reptiles don't make good pets. What I can't understand is where anyone feels the need to completely bash a person for feeling other than that. It's attitudes like that, that will probably get (what is it? HR 669? 699?) passed.

If her lemur gets out and attacks people, call her stupid. If my neighbors pit bull gets out and attacks someone, you better believe I'm going to call him stupid. But until then, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and let him do as he pleases.

 

[Mokele]

You've missed the point. The point in this case isn't any perceived danger, it's the ability and willingness to provide the level of care the animal needs. While hots can be dangerous, most keepers I've met provide exemplary care.

"crazylady", however, is NOT providing the necessary level of care, and is neglecting a crucial aspect of this animal's well-being. I'd say exactly the same things to someone with a corn snake that doesn't have a heat source, or a dog with no vaccinations.

No matter what animal you have, no matter how rare or common, you have a responsibility to meet *ALL* of that animal's needs, and failure to do so is neglect, period.

 

[TattooLost]

I'm sorry, but putting ANY animal into captivity is neglecting at LEAST one of it's needs. That being freedom. We justify putting snakes in small tubs saying "well, if you put them in a big enclosure, they just hang out in one little hide anyway." That's bull, and we know it, but to save space and make them at least feel secure and eat, we keep them in small dark tubs throughout most of their lives.

I don't KNOW that my snakes are happy. I try to convince myself they are because they eat, and don't bite me. But non of us actually KNOW. I've seen primates that SEEM happy and content in captivity, but we don't KNOW.

Simply on that fact, I'm not going to judge her or her "level of care" unless I see that monkey covered in feces or with infected wounds or emaciated. I also won't judge any herp keepers level of care unless I see the same.

 

[Mokele]

I'm sorry, but putting ANY animal into captivity is neglecting at LEAST one of it's needs. That being freedom. We justify putting snakes in small tubs saying "well, if you put them in a big enclosure, they just hang out in one little hide anyway." That's bull, and we know it, but to save space and make them at least feel secure and eat, we keep them in small dark tubs throughout most of their lives.

Firstly, the urge to "run free" is not present in many animals - you're just anthropomorphizing. Tracking studies of wild reptiles routinely show that they have small home ranges and, particularly in the case of snakes, only move when they have to in order to bask, feed, get water, etc. Even Komodos pretty much just move between ambush spots and resources like burrows and water holes.

Second, I've always been critical of tubs or any other non-enriched habitat. Every one of my snakes has a cage with a perimeter of at least twice the snake's length, with numerous branches, hides, etc. Including the big boa. Caring for snakes means giving them a suitable pseudo-natural habitat, and if that means you can't keep as many, so be it.

I don't KNOW that my snakes are happy. I try to convince myself they are because they eat, and don't bite me. But non of us actually KNOW. I've seen primates that SEEM happy and content in captivity, but we don't KNOW.

Corticosteroid levels.

Simply on that fact, I'm not going to judge her or her "level of care" unless I see that monkey covered in feces or with infected wounds or emaciated. I also won't judge any herp keepers level of care unless I see the same.

Then your standards are very, very low.

 

[AvandisFifth187]

And then I find this thread, and see people bashing someone for wanting to keep a monkey. Not really even trying to convince her it's wrong, but just making personal judgments on her sanity, her knowledge, or her motives? Is this what it's all about?

I can understand if people don't think monkeys make a good pet. I can understand if people think my reptiles don't make good pets. What I can't understand is where anyone feels the need to completely bash a person for feeling other than that. It's attitudes like that, that will probably get (what is it? HR 669? 699?) passed.

I'm sorry, but putting ANY animal into captivity is neglecting at LEAST one of it's needs. That being freedom. We justify putting snakes in small tubs saying "well, if you put them in a big enclosure, they just hang out in one little hide anyway." That's bull, and we know it, but to save space and make them at least feel secure and eat, we keep them in small dark tubs throughout most of their lives.

I don't KNOW that my snakes are happy. I try to convince myself they are because they eat, and don't bite me. But non of us actually KNOW. I've seen primates that SEEM happy and content in captivity, but we don't KNOW.

Firstly, the urge to "run free" is not present in many animals - you're just anthropomorphizing.

Ok.. maybe not in most reptiles, but if you look at many mammals, yes it is.

Corticosteroid levels.

Ok, just because an animal's corticosteroid levels show that it isn't stressed, doesn't neccesarily mean it's happy. Depression doesn't always mean stress.

 

[crazylady1193]

first i would like to thank those of you who are at least tying to give me the benifit of a doubt. i dint catch all of your screen names and im sorry about that. for that one that thinks i am just plain out stupid for my choice in pets, i feel sorry for you. if you can be just an ass to someone who you have never met i would hate to see how you are to people that you do know. i gladly invite you to my home to see just how my lemur is treated, fed and the cheap ass $3000 outside cage he has.you are welcome to come visit anythime! my door is open to any of you. and since i dont work i am always here, come on by! i spend at least 10 hours a day playing with him and letting him act like a monkey. witch by the way if you look it up he is not a monkey he is a primate yes but lemurs were around thousands of years before monkeys. before you decide that i am not doing what i need to do for him why dont you look up ringtail lemurs yourself. yes they are very social, i have learned what he wants by the sounds he makes and the way he acts. He is going on monday to have a TB test, rabies shot and tetnis shot. he will be fixed at 15 months old and have his canine teeth filed. i dont treat him like a human baby because he is not one. i have three children and if i wanted a baby i would have one. i have tried very hard to be polite and respectful to all of you. i refuse to act like a bitch to someone i dont personally know. anyone who decides to keep an exotic animal will always have to hear "they dont make good pets" i dont mind someone telling me that, it is expected although it shouldnt be. what i do mind is someone telling me i am stupid or crazy! and its just past wrong telling them that they are incomptant and shouldnt have anything other than a pet rock! i havent posted anything about my other babies because i do not want to hear more crap about them. i know this will just add more fuel to the fire but ill tell you anyway. i was contacted by a lady with a 6 month old male lemur that was moving and couldnt take him with her. my husband will be picking him up today at 4. so it looks like i will have another "baby" sooner than expected. i am hoping that he will make friends with booboo. he will be going to the vet on monday as well. i am just lucky to have a wonderful exotic vet. i would like to contribute to this site because i know things can get expensive but if i am only going to get put down i will just have to delete myself because it is not worth it to me.
why pay to be talked about like you are just shit on the street? i am sure their are many of you on here that are just wonderful people and love your pets as much as i love mine, it is you that i would like to get to know and hear more about what you have.
teresa

 

[Mokele]

Ok.. maybe not in most reptiles, but if you look at many mammals, yes it is.

You're generalizing from less than 0.0001% of animal species, there, and less than 10% of vertebrates.

I'd also note, I don't any non-domesticated mammals, and my dog's breed (greyhounds) have become utterly dependent upon humans - lost individuals cannot forage and eventually starve, usually within weeks due to their high metabolism.

Ok, just because an animal's corticosteroid levels show that it isn't stressed, doesn't neccesarily mean it's happy. Depression doesn't always mean stress.

Yes, actually, depression *does* result in higher corticosteroid levels.

 

[Pony]

Why are you trying to bring drama to this board? You knew the poop that you would stir and you are acting OMG surprised and like some helpless victim when you get the result you knew you would get. The vet willing to file the poor animals teeth should lose their license. They obviously don't care about the animals well being. Congrats on showing your selfishness. Do you feel better now that we all think you are a moron?

 

[JeremyNicholson]

I'm actually kind of amazed by some of the responses in this thread.

First off, nobody here has the right to comment on a psychologically damaging situation to any captive exotic animal. Along with this, claiming that 'primates shouldn't be pets', that is amazing.

On a forum which regularly deals with much, much more dangerous animals (alligators? venomous snakes?) I'm amazed that anyone can call a judgment on someone for wanting to keep any animal.

I can understand if she was keeping an ape. Lemurs are not apes. Although I think lemurs can be nasty, nasty creatures (Esp. females), they can't lift dumpsters and rip your arms off just because they're in a 'bad mood'.

I'm not going to tell someone what animals they are and are not allowed to have. I'm not going to pass judgment.

HOWEVER. No primate should have to have their teeth pulled to suit it for home life. That's not right. You, as the owner, should be committed to doing what is best for the animal. NOT what makes you sleep better at night. Lemurs bite. All animals bite. All primates bite. That is a fact of owning these animals. Having an entire colony of them is not going to help them become better suited as pets. I'd say it might make them less interested in interacting with you.

You took on the responsibility to own this animal. To take away something like their teeth- I never understood that. I probably never will. If you are honestly THAT afraid of it scalping you, the answer is right there. Give the animal to someone that can better take care of it. Not a zoo, not a psuedo-sanctuary- someone who can give it a loving home, and give it the proper care it needs.

I'm not going to patronise this 'crazylady', I think she needs some help with understanding these animals and how to more properly care for them. Insulting her, calling it 'cruel' to own a lemur, and then turn around and give a snake barely any room to move around- that's so hypocritical it's laughable.

True, they're totally different. But at the end of the day, none of the animals people here keep were really 'meant' to be pets. But that doesn't make it wrong.