Proposed New Requirement for Classifieds

[Joe_S]

I've been burned on these classifieds several times by people who were just flipping animals and I'm sure I'm not alone. After having just read this enormous post by Jennifer Harrison I was kind of taken aback by what happened. I feel we can come together and help reduce the frequency of these occurrences on Fauna, after all, it's by us for us, yeah? Having said that, here is what I propose, in all classified adds you will need to disclose when an animal was not produced by you, who it was produced by/purchased from if not produced by you. This way everything is out in the open. This will help protect people who are both buying and selling second hand animals by having full public disclosure. No one can say, "I didn't know." I know many of us would never sell an animal we didn't produce without doing this already but there are many who are unfortunately less than ethical. Also, if it is found that someone is flipping animals without disclosing exactly what they're doing I personally feel it should be a bannable offense. By no means do I imagine this will eradicate issues with trades/purchases because nothing can. I just hope that as I said that this will help lower the frequency of issues. Thank you for your time and consideration in reading this.

For those of you who haven't ready it, here's a link to Jennifer's Post:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=220629

 

[Lucille]

I hear your emotion, but don't agree with this solution. It is a heavy burden for any advertiser to vouch where his animals were produced; the person he purchased the critters from could make up anything and the advertiser would be on the hook if he passed along a lie.
And as far as being bannable, that would place the mods in the same untenable position of being judge and jury.

The BOI is a place to post good and bad experiences. It is not and was not meant to be a nanny board to protect against all possible harm.
If one gets burned by a flipper, post the facts and anyone who reads can be forewarned.

I am not unsympathetic, I am just trying to be realistic.

 

[Joe_S]

I can certainly understand your second statement and can empathize. However, with your first, how is it a heavy burden to say "Purchased from: Soandso" or "Produced by: Soandso." As I stated, it's not meant to be flawless but rather to add a level of credibility. If you can't stand behind the animal your selling so much as to say where you got it or who produced it, that's just sad.

 

[Lucille]

Be gentle, Joe, I am not ordinarily a seller
I was thinking along the lines of the recent thread about a seller of bearded dragons and her friend, those who posted to the thread about them had some question as to who was actually selling/posting. To ask the next seller after to vouch a name might be difficult.
I see where you are coming from, and I am not unsympathetic to your feelings.

 

[Joe_S]

I didn't say you should have to list every person who has ever been in possession of the animal(s). I just said you should either have to post who produced it or who you purchased it from. I really fail to see how that could be difficult in the least. Sorry if that or my previous post sounds less than gentle.

 

[Clay Davenport]

Rather than trying to create then enforce a rule about this how about a simpler approach to the problem.
When you want to know whether someone selling an animal produced it themselves............... ask them. Problem solved.

The rule you propose is entirely unenforceable. You suggest we require those who did not produce the animal they are selling to disclose that fact. If they choose not to mention that, then it would be assumed they did produce it. How are we to know the difference?

 

[Shadera]

How do we know the seller is telling the truth when they say who produced the animal in this proposed change? Who polices that and where do they get the information to support their decision?

I can definitely empathize with the emotion behind the idea, but agree that it's just not something that's possible to implement with any degree of realistic enforcement. Like Clay said, ask. If the seller is dishonest then, they'd probably have been dishonest in the ad about it. Most sellers have no problem telling where an animal came from. It's up to the buyer to be savvy and do their research. usually if someone's a flipper, a little reading will cue you right in on it. If you're still not sure, ask.

"so what's it feeding on, how much does it weigh, and who produced it?" Easy peezy.

 

[bkline]

I agree if you question the seller they should be able to answer the who and where it came from honestly. Also some breeders don't want there name thrown around

 

[hhmoore]

People need to take some responsibility for themselves...if it matters to a buyer whether the seller produced the animal being sold, the buyer should ask.
I don't hold some pathological distaste for flippers, like so many people seem to. Heck, I've been called a flipper because I sold an animal I didn't produce after it had been in my possession for nearly 4 years. (OMG - I should probably be banned, since I didn't say who I got it from . Hopefully, there is a statute of limitations on this, and I will squeak past on a technicality). Here's the thing though, why would a person that resells reptiles as a business want to tell you where he/she got their animals? Nothing like sending everybody directly to the source & eliminating the middleman, .

Jen's experience was an awful one, and there are plenty of things that people reading of it can learn (not to consider putting new animals in the same room with all your other ones "quarantine", for example); but creating a sitewide requirement that sellers post the sources of their animals isn't going to do anything...nor would it have prevented Jen's experience.

 

[hhmoore]

(yeah - I started that early, but went on an excursion into Jen's thread to verify something before I posted...my initial comments have already been made by others)

 

[Focal]

Proper research before a purchase prevents this mess.

 

[brd7666]

I can certainly understand not wanting to get ripped off and lied to, but this thread is somewhat laughable. Most of what I have sold, I produced myself, but I have bought animals for resale. I have bought captive bred animals, as well as imported animals. It's not a resellers obligation to tell any potential buyer where the animal came from, if they did not produce it. Most people are quick to say if they produced it themselves. A reputable seller will sell quality animals regardless of where they came from. If I was selling an animal that was produced by someone else, and you asked me who produced it, I more than likely would not tell you, if I did, it would be after the sale. Who a reseller buys from is none of your business, and like Harold said, then you could go straight to them. I have sold a few thousand imported baby ball pythons over the years, and I would tell people if they were farmed babies, and the risk involved, especially when I would sell them before they had fed, and that is common practice with buying in lots. I have hand picked through thousands of baby ball pythons. If someone is uncomfortable with a seller, then they should not buy from them. Buy from people with good reputations, and from referals. Sorry if you don't like my responce, but I'm not going to sugar coat something to make things sound like something they're not. It is what it is, take it or leave it.

 

[WebSlave]

Ooh, ooh! I have a question!

What good would such requirements do unless their is some sort of lie detection capability built into this site?

 

[brd7666]

Ooh, ooh! I have a question!

What good would such requirements do unless their is some sort of lie detection capability built into this site?

I think they make lie detectors now that you clip over your finger, and they plug right into your USB Port on your computer. Then, once your computer determines whether your lying or not, it will either allow or deny you the ability to hit the submit button to pace the ad. There you have it, problem solved.

 

[Magic Merlin]

I can certainly understand your second statement and can empathize. However, with your first, how is it a heavy burden to say "Purchased from: Soandso" or "Produced by: Soandso." As I stated, it's not meant to be flawless but rather to add a level of credibility. If you can't stand behind the animal your selling so much as to say where you got it or who produced it, that's just sad.

Not standing behind what you sell and not disclosing a supplier are separate issues. I stand behind every single animal that passes through my hands.....heck, they would not be for sale unless I believed they were 110% healthy (nobody wants to do repeat business after they get a sick animal). My guarantee is the same whether I produced it or another breeder produced it for me to resell. By the way, not every quality breeder has the time to sell every animal they produce.....most have day jobs and appreciate the service I provide. I tell you what, why don't you go to every petshop in your area and ask them to give you that info and then report you findings back here.

 

[Joe_S]

Clay Davenport
I always do ask, the reason I made this post was in response to several other people in the community telling me about their horror stories. The one time I got burned on Fauna it was by an unscrupulous flipper who had no idea how to care for animals and was merely after financial ends but I dealt with it on my own. Having said that, nothing is unenforceable, it's merely a matter of whether or not people are willing to accept what's enforced.

Shadera Lorrain
How do you know anyone is telling the truth about anything? It's not about making a foolproof system, it's about adding another layer. Again, it's certainly enforceable if people can agree it's something that should be implemented. As for the buyer having to be savvy, I agree 100% regardless of the situation.

Brendon Kline
I fully understand that some breeders don't want their name thrown around, that's why I wish there was an edit button in this forum, I fully meant to say you should include who produced it, where you purchased it from or simply produced elsewhere, please inquire.

Harald H Moore Jr
I hold no distaste for people who responsibly sell animals regardless of who produced the animal. It's a matter of adding another layer to the existing protocol to make discerning who may be doing what slightly easier for the less savvy. Also, when I said that in my personal opinion they should be banned, I was referring to people who are misrepresenting animals. Those who are selling/trading animals who aren't healthy, have parasites or downright lying about genetics. Understandably misunderstood due to my hasty posting, that's my fault. Again, ***WANTED*** Edit button in this forum!

Nick Carl
I agree 100%, however some people just don't understand how to research. Some people stumble upon this forum and just make a purchase all willy-nilly. Now while it's true, that's not our fault or problem, shouldn't we do what we can to make it easier for those newcomers?

Brian Dierking
Let me preface this with, I really wish I had re-wrote this before posting it and/or had the access to edit it afterward. As I said to Brenden Kline, I meant to include the option of merely stating produced elsewhere, without having to publicly name a source. Making it easier for the non-savvy buyer to see what they might want to inquire to. I certainly don't dislike your response, any criticism is wholly welcome. WIthout criticism, how do we grow?

Rich Zuchowski
Again, it's not about making it foolproof. The idea behind the whole post was to help add a level of security to exchanges for both the buyer and seller. My idea was intended to help keep the novice buyer/barterer from making a painful rookie mistake. Not everyone starts out knowing the ins and outs of this world. Finally, the plain and simple truth is that without making things easy to get in to, less people get involved.

Brian Dierking
http://www.amazon.com/Swamiware-UP00-USB-Polygraph/dp/B001RMXZ9I
Okay, but on a series note… You made me laugh and I thank you for that.

Jason Pahl
I agree, wholly to everything other than your last statement. If it weren't for the openness of pet stores in my area I wouldn't have a rat supplier (I challenge you to find rodents for sale, reliably, in the Orlando area).

 

[Magic Merlin]

Well Joe,

I produce 95% of the live food that my 300+ geckos eat and sell the excess to other breeders. It sounds to me like you have stumbled on a great money making opportunity and I will give you a great name for free, "Reliable Feeders".....with that name you cannot fail.

 

[Joe_S]

Rofl I'm good but thanks!

 

[Slipmattic]

I agree with you Harold, i thought the proposed enforcment was regaurding the constant bumping by the original OP. I do not agree towards the person selling the animal having to know exactley where it came from.. Like so many have said previousley, people can and will lie. Me personally, i buy from a select few of people and luckily their pretty local.

 

[Nirvana]

Also, when I said that in my personal opinion they should be banned, I was referring to people who are misrepresenting animals. Those who are selling/trading animals who aren't healthy, have parasites or downright lying about genetics.

Emphasis added ...

You said it yourself -- they are misrepresenting them. A requirement for disclosure sounds like a great idea but as others have already said, would necessitate enforcing the honesty of those posting (which is impossible). The dishonest folks know what they have, and if they're already failing to disclose something key about the animal's background, all that requirement is going to do will be to force them to lie outright as opposed to a lie of omission.

In addition, while I can't read Jen's thread as it seems to have disappeared, IMO if someone takes lousy care of their animals, lies about genetics, or has endemic disease in their collection, it doesn't really matter whether they produced the animal or not. A snake that was born into a colony with endemic IBD is still a snake I don't want within a few blocks of my collection, any more so than a snake that passed through a colony with endemic IBD on its way to its next home. Y'know?

(Slightly a side note: I tend to agree with Harald that the recent witch hunt of "flippers" is kind of ... Well ... Funny. It's definitely no good for someone who knows nothing about reptiles to start up a business buying them off of Craigslist and selling them on Fauna without checking them for health, properly quarantining from their main collection, etc.. But let's face it, there are LOTS of well-known, well-respected businesses who will "flip" snakes. Obviously there's a big difference in that (I hope) the well-respected businesses do some level of health screening, but I doubt that it's a hugely involved QT with oral swabs and liver biopsies et al. That's why QT is so vital to each and everyone who buys animals -- because you can never put your trust in someone else's QT.

Also, I guess I don't get why the backyard reptile flipper is any worse than the backyard reptile breeder, who bought a few lousy examples of cheap morphs and got a few eggs and now doesn't know how to raise the babies and/or can't afford to feed them. IMO they're both very bad news, but for some reason you hear a lot of decrying of flippers but you don't hear much about "BYB's" in this hobby.

/rant )