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Question? Albino to Albino no baby Albino's

Just so you know, a lot of people would not consider those to be true "hybrids", since they are are of the same genus and species...though they certainly wouldn't be intergrades since there isn't an area of range overlap. The subject of crossing species or subspecies (or worse yet, genus) is one that gets varying responses, depending on the animals. It has been going on for so long in the king/milk/corn world that it is practically considered normal...though I am sure there are still plenty of purists. Some people enjoy them for their different looks; some just don't like the idea, the practice, or the animals. If you like them, enjoy them - just be honest about what they are when you sell them.


(others would consider them a hybrid because, lacking a range overlap, the subspecies would not meet/breed in nature)
 
Ed Clark said:
Derrick, heres what I would suggest. raise up some of the babies then breed them together and both types of albinism will be expressed in the offspring.
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Not... er... Not exactly.

You're talking about two traits with the same name and the same resulting phenotype but which are apparantly not genotypically identical, since the cross didn't produce any offspring displaying the trait, which a homozygous to homozygous breeding would have done, had the traits shared a common genetic cause. Different allele, different physiological interrupt to the pigment production, whatever the case may be- they were incompatible.

If you were to cross the offspring to one another (Please don't- nobody needs more poorly labeled non-naturally occuring intergrade trash) you'd be crossing animals which are all heterozygous for two completely independant traits. Meaning that the chances for all the offspring to be expressing both types of albinism would be astronomically small. Better off looking at the punnets for any other two unrelated recessive traits and look at them as Trait A and Trait B... producing an offspring displaying both traits would be as likely as producing a snow boa from animals with a normal phenotype.

Plus since, far as I know off the top of my head without verifying it, both morphs are forms of tyrosinase negative albinism, visually, it wouldn't really matter. If the speckleds are tyrosinase positive then the interrupt point for cal king albinism happens at an earlier physiological step than the interrupt point for speckled king albinism, one trait would simply "overwrite" the other, visually and in terms of the pigment production.

'course cal king x speckled king babies belong in a freezer anyway. Not fed and cared for and allowed to live.
 
Derrick, they are your snakes do what you want with them. Seamus and Ed just cant seem to get on a thread with out starting some kind of confrontation. Notice the warning points for both. If I were you, I would listen to the info they were kind enough to give. But as far as their opinions on the "intergrade freaks" and putting them in the freezer. I would tell Ed to go and play with his BALLS (pythons that is) and maybe suggest to Seamus to stick HIS head in the freezer. Take it easy and send me a few pics when you get a chance.
Dennis Cook
Algar Reptiles
 
Seems like i wanted to ask a little info and Eddie and Haley have nothing better to do but try to sound like they are so smart and talk alot of bull rather than just be helpful. Sounds like to me somebody needs more to do with there spare time. I like the babies and will keep them and come out with new one's. You say there freaks what about the albino grayband is it a freak or any other snake produced by mixing 2 snakes seems 3 out of 5 say mixing snakes are good(huh)
 
You're talking about two traits with the same name and the same resulting phenotype but which are apparantly not genotypically identical, since the cross didn't produce any offspring displaying the trait, which a homozygous to homozygous breeding would have done, had the traits shared a common genetic cause. Different allele, different physiological interrupt to the pigment production, whatever the case may be- they were incompatible.
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Exactly correct. It's two genetically different strains of albinism. If you breed the siblings to each otherm sure you might eventually (1 in 16 chance with each egg hatched) produce a snake expressing both strains of albinism at the same time, but so what? You most likely wouldn't be able to tell them apart anyway.
 
jdf1985 said:
Seems like i wanted to ask a little info and Eddie and Haley have nothing better to do but try to sound like they are so smart and talk alot of bull rather than just be helpful. Sounds like to me somebody needs more to do with there spare time. I like the babies and will keep them and come out with new one's. You say there freaks what about the albino grayband is it a freak or any other snake produced by mixing 2 snakes seems 3 out of 5 say mixing snakes are good(huh)
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Actually, purists seem to be in the majority. I've been in involved in herpetoculture for 20 or so years, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. The strongest argument against hybrids is the potential havoc they can unleash on established bloodlines of pure species. Once a bloodline is contaminated by a hybrid, it is lost forever. The albino "grayband" has a misleading name, IMO, as it is not actually a grayband. It is a hybrid grayband X Ruthven's. No matter how many times it is outcrossed to a grayband, it will still be a hybrid, and not a grayband.

And therein lies the biggest issue that people have- that there are those who would intentionally or unintentionally misrepresent a hybrid as a pure animal. It has happened with other species, the Indian python and diamond python being perhaps two of the best examples.

Anyways, that's the anti-hybrid perspective explained in a bit more gentle manner.
 
To me the whole hybrid versus pure argument is a waste of time. There are always going to be those on both sides. I find myself in the middle. I love pure animals, but who can say that a bat-eater would belong in a freezer? To me as long as hybrids aren't misrepresented there are no problems with them. It adds some new exciting dimensions to the herp world. Also how can anyone who likes a reptile(any reptile) want to see one put in the freezer just because it is a hybrid? Who are you to decide what lives and dies? Thats like saying Tommy should be put in the freezer because his mom is Italian and his dad is Chinese...wtf??? If this guy wants to make every possible hybrid on Gods green earth, thats his perogative. It doesn't effect my life or anyone Else's as long as he sells them as hybrids. There are plenty of breeders of pure animals to find one if you so desire, and now more and more breeders of hybrids are showing up, and frankly I admire people willing to take chances and try hybrids as they may never see a single egg or baby. All in all to each their own, but to tell someone to kill a herp(especially for no good reason other than your own disillusioned views), when you are in the herp community makes you an embarrassment to it, with all due respect. I hate spiders, but you don't see me going around killing them just because they exist, its not my place. Dan M.
 
fuscusking13 said:
To me as long as hybrids aren't misrepresented there are no problems with them. Dan M.
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The problem lies in the fact that hybirds are not represented accurately at times. Whether by accident or intentional.

There is no way to tell if an animal has been crossed by looking at it. These babies may look like pure cal kings but they are not. If bred to a pure cal king by another person somewhere down the line, you now muddy up other lines of pure animals.
 
While I more than see your point and even slightly agree with it bottom line is people are going to do what they want (the beauty of living in our country) so arguing about it is just a waste of breath. He didn't ask whether or not it should be done(he already did it anyway), but what would come of it or why there were no albinos. If you buy from a reputable source, then they will guarantee and stand behind their animals so you would have absolutely nothing to worry about. My point simply was killing an animal because it is not pure is an asinine thing to do, and is simply ignorant. Dan M.
 
Like others have said, just be Purely honest if you decide to sell these animals, and include paperwork with them when they are sent to the new owners. Id Also suggest keeping a copy for yourself, in case anyone ever asks you about them say, 5 years from now, if the animals were to exchange hands. Please make it very important that they know to be clear about the animals as well. This way, hopefully, if somone was to happen upon the animal in the future, they too will know what it is.

Because really, like youve seen already, things can get nastilly tight for a person if they misrepresent an animal. :)

Other than that, what others are saying is right, there are two different strains of albinism youre working with there, and theyre not compatible.

Now, if you bred the Females all back to the male, and the males all back to the female, you MIGHT happen upon an Albino, again like others have said ( or by breeding siblings together) only because you then found an animal that is het for the same type of albinism as that parent, or sibling.

Took me a bit to learn all this genetic stuff, and im STILL learning about it everyday. Youre in a community FULL of very knowledgeable people, who will help you whenever they can! Some might be harsher than others, but dont take it TOO seriously, and learn about those people before you make judgment. ^_-
 
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Derric u need to slow down, u asked for and recevied info that could help u out. It wasn't what u wanted to hear but Ed Clark was not disrespectful in his answer, u also received good info from Seamus but it was his last comment that set u and others off . The only disrepect I see is from Dennis Cook of Algar reptiles in his comments on Ed clark. These r ur snakes and u can do whatever u want with them but u need to understand that when u try selling ur offspring misrepresenting them can lead to legal problems. good luck with ur snakes..ps we might want to remind Seamus and Dennis that somethings r better unsaid........
 
Phil, Ed could have answered Derricks question with out the "intergrade freaks" added to it. If Ed or Seamus takes my thread as disrespectful good. Derrick asked a question that they were kind enough to answer, but I don't remember him asking their opinions on hybrids or crosses. There would have been no disagreements here if they wouldn't have taken a few shots at Derrick. Dan, I agree with your thread. Take care.
Dennis Cook
 
densnake1 said:
Phil, Ed could have answered Derricks question with out the "intergrade freaks" added to it. If Ed or Seamus takes my thread as disrespectful good. Derrick asked a question that they were kind enough to answer, but I don't remember him asking their opinions on hybrids or crosses. There would have been no disagreements here if they wouldn't have taken a few shots at Derrick. Dan, I agree with your thread. Take care.
Dennis Cook
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Like i said, some people are a bit rougher than others, but that does not mean their points are invalid. its just who they are, take postings on the internet with a grain of salt.

You'll save alot of Excedrin that way ^_-
 
Dennis what you call them? I didn't come on this site to get into a pissing match with anyone. I though when i saw albino x albino and no albinos i could learn something, I did. I also learned that people r breeding snakes they know nothing about.. That I would think u would b concerned with........Alicia words well spoken..Adios Phillydog
 
Yeah u can the female is pink and the male is white
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Right but what I said was if you did at some point produce a snake that expressed both strains of albino at the same time, you most likely would not be able to tell that it was expressing both.
 
What makes you think he knows nothing about them? He tried a cross to see what he would get. Albino to albino usually means all albinos. I call them crosses. Not intergrade freaks. Ed and seamus could have just answered his question and not added their displeasure with him crossing the snakes. If they were that upset about it they shouldn't have answered Derricks questions. They could have started their own thread about how much they dislike crosses or hybrids. I also agree with Alicia, but my point is he didn't ask for their opinions. He asked why he didn't get albinos. They answered the questions(very well,IMO) and then tried to start an argument, which they did.lol Take care.
Dennis
 
Yeah I agree with denise I might know it all but i am willing to learn and that's why i posted on this. I figured albino to albino, but i was wrong but you don't have to have all these hating comments. I like tring to make new cooler colors so don't hate becouse you don't like it. I have some Pure graybands, ruthivens, Brooks and plenty of other snakes and just wanted to see what the out come would be of the too albino's and eveyone comes on and wants to be the bigger know it all J***. I'm thankful for the anwser but didn't ask for a hybrid Fight on why and why not
 
Derrick, curious as to what hatched out of those other eggs....I did have a theory Right! :yesnod:
jdf1985 said:
We will see if your theory is correct in the next day or so still waiting on 2. I personally love hybrids and i'm sure many people do?
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Dennis, thanks for recognizing the warning points I have earned! I like to think of them as passion points. I do play with my BALLS and have Girl friends that travel very long distances to play with my BALLS. but keep in mind...were talking about BALL pythons here. ;)
densnake1 said:
Derrick, they are your snakes do what you want with them. Seamus and Ed just cant seem to get on a thread with out starting some kind of confrontation. Notice the warning points for both. If I were you, I would listen to the info they were kind enough to give. But as far as their opinions on the "intergrade freaks" and putting them in the freezer. I would tell Ed to go and play with his BALLS (pythons that is) and maybe suggest to Seamus to stick HIS head in the freezer. Take it easy and send me a few pics when you get a chance.
Dennis Cook
Algar Reptiles
Click to expand...
 
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