Rainwater: New Scam

Winter · Aug 19, 2003

I have seen at least one of those pictures on Ball Python Morphs.com .

Here is an example:

Regards,

Lauren Rost

Dragondad · Aug 19, 2003

Scams

Any scan is based on the same premise let me convince you to give me money for something that I have that will in turn make us both lots of money. You can guarantee that every picture in the brochure was "borrowed" if he had any of the animals then why would he want to share any of the money. Just breed them and keep it all.

I mean I could say everyone I have developed this new mutation called "Superduper Ultra Ghost Ball Python" And the picture is right here:

I know he is a little hard to see but thats why he is so unique. And the first ten people who send me $50,000 each will own a part of the new future of reptile breeding.

And by the way I also have a "bridge" in Brooklyn and some building ground in Fl, of course either of those goes with a free parcel of ocean front land I happen to be selling in Colorado.

All Tim Rainwater is is a slicker version of Upstate send money and basically you willl get nothing.

firebrat75 · Aug 19, 2003

piebald pic

The pie pic is off of Ralph Davis Reptiles.... the snake is in the exact same position...http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/collection/pythons/ball/piebald_ball_python.asp

Sorry, I am not taking the pic to post.... but I will direct you to it...

Jason

firebrat75 · Aug 19, 2003

my last post

Sorry, forgot to add, it is the pic that is on the 3rd from the last page that is the same off of Ralph Davis Reptiles' site....

Jason

TJEvans · Aug 19, 2003

Ken Foose · Aug 20, 2003

I really find it hard to believe that Rainwater is at it again. I hope that everyone has learned from the last round, but knowing how things go in this business, I somehow doubt it. Tim is a wonderfull market man, mainly at marketing himself. He is also a damn good colubrid breeder. No one can doubt that. However, his skill and knowledge in almost every other aspect of herpetology and herpetoculture is in my opinion somewhat lacking. He also has a bad habit of biting off way more then he can chew. The list of his misdeeds is very extensive. The claim of breeding the first albino leopard gecko is the best of course. As many if not all of you know by now, Rainwater never produced that first gecko. It was purchased from a dealer overseas. That did not stop Tim from being interviewed by just about every major magazine at the time, going as far as describing in great detail the amazement he felt as he watched the first baby hatch! Other adventures: selling normal geckos as het, selling normal boas as het, selling wild caught varanids as captive bred, selling wild caught ball pythons as captive bred, selling wild caught hognose as captive bred, and sometimes captive bred hets. There is of course much, much more. I have hesitated to post at all because I was once in business with Tim. He and I did not part on the best of terms, so anything I relate here could be considered "sour grapes", or even retaliation for all the lies that he had told about me to gain a foothold in the local retail market. Of course, I'm still here, and he is long, long gone. I wonder if anyone else has tried to call that number on the flyer? I can only give an opinion here, and I have not a shred of proof, but I would have to say that there are no "owners" involved in this venture, and that Tim Rainwater, and he alone is behind this whole thing. Only he would claim to be a ball python expert when in fact he has NEVER produced a ball python in his life. No one in thier right mind would hire him, so he is either in business with a bunch of nuts, or it is all him, no partners, no business investors, just Tim. I will not go into the insurance fraud, or the imbezzlement of funds from his own company. But I have seen it all. The lack of consideration for people he owes money to (I'm not talking about animals sold, I'm talking about animals purchased and never paid for). Many people out there paid a lot of money for "Rainwater" this and that, only to find later that it was all a smoke and mirrors. Tim has a great desire to be rich. He also has a even greater desire to be famous. His ego controls most of his life. He can't tolerate being second, and will and does take any shortcut he can to win. Like I said before, he is a good colubrid breeder, and had the potential to be a great person in our field. But greed and ego got in the way. Lies are a way of life with him now days I guess. It's a shame. Please be careful folks, don't fall for the slick sales pitch and the promises of wealth. There are no shortcuts. Do what you are good at the best that you can. If you are honest, know what you are doing, and treat people with a bit of respect, you will go far. If you play the con game, if you rip people off as Rainwater has done in the past, and seems to be attempting again in the present, you will be just like Tim, selling life insurance door to door (for real!) By the way, my 13 year old is also a great colubrid breeder! Take care

Adam Block · Aug 20, 2003

1) Why an LLC? He's in Nevada and Nevada offers the greatest protection for a normal C or S Corp. not to mention it's much harder to pierce the corporate barrier when you have a C or S Corp then it is with an LLC and I would think that should be Tim’s foremost concern.

2) As for insurance, I could be wrong but I was under the impression that Lloyd's of London was the only place you could get insurance on your animals. Many people may have theft insurance on their snakes but theft and death insurance I think would be cost prohibitive.

3) Posting in here is great for the copyright end of this topic but Tim knows he's out of luck with this crowd so he's looking for investors not reptile enthusiasts. I would like to think there is but I somehow doubt there's much we could do to stop this.

4) You don't really need to have a trademark on a photo but you would need to establish a copyright. This can simply be done by putting the photos on disk/cd and mailing them to yourself. I've always done a few copies and then of course don't open them. (This is for whoever asked on page one).

5) I've gone over reptiles six ways to Sunday with non-reptile friends of mine who invest in other projects with me. Reptiles are something I would never bring them in on. For myself I feel it's a better bet then stocks but from a pure investment standpoint it's not sound or wise. There are far better things to put $100,000 into that offer much higher returns.

6) Why on earth is he using his name? This is the one thing I can't get over. Any investor would look into his background and anybody they would ask would say the same thing. Honestly, I know he's not marketing to the reptile business he's after investors but I still can't see what good his name would do. Makes me think the scam is already in the works. As if he'd scammed the person that made the flyer out of money but that doesn't add up either.

7) Has anybody filed with the BBB on Rainwater Reptiles? If not I think that should be done as well as the barkers filing on this new company.

I'm not sure what can be done to protect people from Tim but my only thoughts are a website that comes up high in the search engines with this company name telling people about Tim’s past and the BBB as most investors will at least have a look there.

I was at his last location and that is in the same spot. I don't recall the address but I remember how close he was to MGM (my hotel) and while the exact address may be different the current on is within 3 blocks of the old one. Can anybody else confirm that?

MORTGAGE ONE OF NEVADA is also the last known I found for that address.

WebSlave · Aug 20, 2003

Back in the late 80s, I had a rather sizeable folder containing correspondence between Tim Rainwater and myself. Hopefully I have thrown it in the trash where it belonged.

My first introduction to this guy was when I saw a photograph on rec.pets.herp of these purple colored corns he was marketing as Lavender Corns. Well, I found the photo rather interesting, because I had never really seen blue grass before. I was rather amazed that no one else I talked to at the time seemed to have noticed this little diosyncrasy either. So I took that image, imported it into PhotoShop, and adjusted the colors so that the grass was green like it was supposed to be. Well lo and behold, I then found myself looking at my "Mocha" corns that I had been producing for several years.

I emailed this guy Tim Rainwater and told him what I suspected about his animals, and found him to be a very nice guy and apparently was interested in correcting the problem and getting to the truth of the matter. He said the photo was the result of his camera and he was going to fix that problem right away.

That was the very first lie I got, but certainly not the last, from Tim Rainwater. And I have to honestly say that of all the things I had heard many people say about Tim, is that he was a "really nice guy", whenever his name came into the conversation back then.

Coincidentally, it appears that many people got sucked into that purple corn photo and bought those animals based simply on that one doctored photo. One thing Tim was real good at was playing two ends against the middle and getting people to believe that together they could make a fortune. He would dangle the promise of a ground floor opportunity to someone for something *new* he had come up with, and of course this person would have to keep mum about it rather than trying to do any sort of investigation towards his claims. This played those people right into Tim's pocket. I do believe there are very few people I have met that were better at manipulating others as Tim Rainwater was. He used greed as the blinders that would cause his "partners" to run into a brick wall every time. And still people fell for it, because talking to him in person, he was really a *nice* guy.

I could go on and on about this, but personally that is one guy I would just as soon never hear from nor about ever again.

If he is back on the scene, I do have to admit a certain fascination seeing whom will again be sucked into his world. I am curious to see how many people were born with a natural lobotomy and hear them say "Oh he's changed so much! He's REALLY a nice guy! He is going to pay EVERYONE back with high end ball pythons if they just give him a chance!"

IMHO, of course.

HerpVenue · Aug 20, 2003

I wasn't very active on the internet when all the rainwater shtuff was going on. From the sound of things.....TONS of people from little breeders to BIG BREEDERS got taken.

With so many people being taken. And with so many people warning everyone else...........

Like Rich I too am curious to see who gets taken.

firebrat75 · Aug 20, 2003

Pet Insurance

Someone mentioned pet insurance.... go to www.petinsurance.com

It is not available in all states, but it is there. One thing that they do not cover is parasites, but diseases and illnesses are covered...

Jason

E2MacPets · Aug 20, 2003

What I'd be more worried about then him getting money from investors is him actually starting to sell animals. He can use this pamphlet as the groundwork for scamming a new generation of buyers. You'd have to believe there's no way he could have gotten money in order to believe with 100% certainty that those hets he's selling are fake. We all know the truth, but I bet you he cons plenty of people that way.

Ken Foose · Aug 20, 2003

All I can tell you is Tim is very, very slick. I actually watched as he brought partner after partner in. Some of these people actually quit thier jobs and went in with Tim full time after he told them of the great wealth they would have if they just took all the money they had and invested with him. And then I watched in horror as these up til then honest people started talking the same line as Tim, even after they had to know the truth. They would lie to customers in the store (which does not exist anymore, the address he is using now is the insurance company where he works), they would lie to other investors over the phone, and on the computer. All would claim that they did not sell wild caught animals, such as hognose snakes. They would have a bunch of these captive bred adults with scars and missing tail parts, and sell them at an inflated price. When they sold out, Tim would make a trip to New Mexico, and collect another group of these captive bred snakes, mainly by flipping rocks in the wild or finding them on a road at night. Everything Tim said was 100% believed, and I was amazed. And all of the sudden this young guy who really had no herpetological knowledge worth a hill of beans was in every magazine, on the internet, and being hailed as a reptile god. I was amazed that he could learn so much in just a couple years, and have so much success to the point that I wondered what I was doing wrong. Then the lies got thicker and thicker, and I then understood what was really going on, and that I was doing nothing wrong at all. He opened his first retail store, and was evicted for non payment of rent. He then suckered someone to partner up with him, and actually had this guy pay the first 6 months of his rent in advance for him. Guess what? Six months went by, and on the 7th, he was evicted for non payment of rent. Instead of paying rent, or bills, he purchased a $7,000+ sign with his name on it next to a 6 ft albino leopard gecko. This was his ego taking control again. The greatest thing that came out of all this is that I was able to purchase that $7,000+ sign from a salvage company when they took it down, and it now hangs (the gecko) on my store front. It looks very nice indeed, and I paid the whole sum of $50 for it. Cost me another $800 to have it hung and lit, but it sure looks great! I could go on, but this is long enough already. Tim is everything that we try to avoid in this, or any other business. I can only suggest that everyone keep clear

WebSlave · Aug 20, 2003

You know, I actually took quite a bit of a beating over this whole Rainwater thing back then. A lot of people felt it was just a competition thing between myself and him. I don't want to get into the "I told you so" thing, but I knew from the very start that the guy had issues. Tim probably hated my guts because I popped his bubble on the Lavender Corn thing. I actually have an email from him on one of my old computers where he admits that he had planned on being the "originator" of the Lavender Corn to be the cornerstone of his reputation.

Tim Rainwater did not have a clue about how genetics works, in my opinion. About the only thing I know about that he actually produced himself of ANY interest at all was a single kinked corn snake with some color missing around the kink that became his Hope Diamond. He offered related siblings for sale at outrageous prices as possible het for Piebald.

Then there was that Calico corn fiasco. I have written about this elsewhere. But the short end of it was that he bought these things and tried to pin this genetic linked skin disease on the husbandry of the people whom originally owned the stock. He was able to compress the years it would take to prove such a thing into a few short months and claimed he cured the problems. I talked to the original owners at length about this one and then requested that Tim withdraw them from the market or I would go public with the facts. He did withdraw them from his public price list, but I know for a fact that he offered them to anyone whom called him or emailed him.

I think I need to resurect the very first version of the BOI. There may even be some things about Tim Rainwater in there that may be relevant to all this.

In my opinion our industry does not need a PART 2 from Tim Rainwater.

Adam Block · Aug 20, 2003

Tim is a great guy to talk with and has the ability to raise far more capital then he should ever be trusted with. My only dealing with him was on a pair of Motley Snow corns and needless to say it was a poor one. When I spoke with him about it he'd said he'd get me a new male that year or a whole new pair the next year trying of course to buy enough time to never do anything for me. Many phone calls, emails and headaches later nothing had been resolved so I took a little trip to see him.

He of course told me he didn't have anything for me at the time but that was hard to cover up while I was looking at newborns hatching. I ended up getting my snakes but wouldn't have if I wouldn't have been in his face watching babies hatch.

Rich is correct though when he says Tim has greed working for him. It's very hard for me to feel sorry for people that let their own greed shoot them in the foot. I feel bad for anybody that gets scammed but a little math should show people with ease why Tim's plan is a scam.

The RED FLAG for me in that whole flyer is this quote "In 2003, a pair can go for as little as $20,000." Weather you have millions or nothing at all few people see $20,000 as a little amount and few wise investors would think that. He's trying to make it look like $20,000 is a drop in the bucket to him while at the same time making you think HOLY COW I'm going to be RICH!

He needs/wants $10,000,000

Say he gets 100 investors to do the $100,000 and they all want the first repayment plan.

$1,250 x 100 = $125,000

He says himself that it takes two years for a Ball to reach sexual maturity (males yes but I'd highly debate the females even though I know it's done).

With this information in hand we know before he sells one snake it's going to be 24 months, 24 months of repaying each investor his $1,250 a month.

24 x $125,000 = $3,000,000

Now if he pays that back from the initial $10,000,000 he only has 70% of that left to buy morphs still very workable, as he only needs $900,000 in animals. He will then owe the following:

72 x $125,000 = $9,000,000

In addition he needs to repay the $10,000,000 on that last year. Meaning just to pay back the loans he would have taken out he needs to make $22,000,000

That would make his production for those six years look something like this: (rounding up)

37 Morphs with 5 normal females I'm assuming.

Total cost based on his figures $900,000

Production:

740 eggs per year or 4,440 babies over the course of that six-year period, all sold for $5,000 each. This is just to fulfill his obligation to his lenders. This doesn't account for over head, market drop (something he mentions himself), death, morphs with more then one trait, supply and demand, insurance costs, vet bills or anything else.

The figures for the second option would leave his production as:

67 Morphs costing $1,676,133

1,341 Babies a year or 4,023 Total again not counting any other factors.

This is something any investor would look at and it's laughable to think anybody with a sum of money to invest would consider this a viable option.

My question would be why raise 10 times the capital you need when you could do just as well with 100 $10,000 investors or 10 $100,000 investors. All you would have to do is not offer the first payment option. Red Flags are all over that investment opportunity and I would be very worried about Tim going far with that.

I hope this is laid out easy enough to follow. Made a lot of sense in my brain but this wouldn't be the first time something made sense to me and not the rest of the world.

JungleHabitats · Aug 20, 2003

VPI comments on scam brouchure

update .. I just received this email from the barkers regarding the use of there photos in this brouchure....

Subj: RE: thought you may want to know about someone using your pictures ..
Date: 8/20/2003 3:50:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: "vpi" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Thanks for your heads-up message. We've been on vacation and didn't know
about this brochure. We do know the people involved and are surprised
that they would do this. So, as you might imagine, we will be looking
into this.

Thanks,

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: thought you may want to know about someone using your pictures
..

Hi there , there is a thread on faunaclassifieds.com entitled "rainwater
scam" the people that have made a brochure are Royal designs LLC and
claim to be from Navada Las Vegas. They are pushing for backers in
raising the morphs you have put out and it looks as if there claiming
there pictures are the morphs they have produced. They also list Tim
Rainwater as there "BP expert" and says he's incharge of the facility &
breeding and upkeep of these animals .they have not listed you or anyone
as lenders or credited for the pictures in the flyer/ brochure they have
made but are asking backers for upto 100,000.00 as investors with a 15%
return on there investment im sure you have probably been made aware of
this by now i had tried to call you this AM and let you know via phone
but no one answered.heres a link to the thread at hand
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24075
hope this will be of interest to you as they are also showing pictures
of blood pythons you have on your site
thanks for your time in reading this email .
Alan

so now we will see what transpires in this from here

BrianB · Aug 20, 2003

4) You don't really need to have a trademark on a photo but you would need to establish a copyright. This can simply be done by putting the photos on disk/cd and mailing them to yourself. I've always done a few copies and then of course don't open them. (This is for whoever asked on page one).

Somebody already gave an accurate answer in regards to copyright a few pages back, but I want to clarify this: According to the Berne convention, you do not have to do anything whatsoever to establish a copyright. A work is copyrighted from the time of its creation. Mailing materials to yourself doesn't establish copyright.

sputnik · Aug 20, 2003

4) You don't really need to have a trademark on a photo but you would need to establish a copyright. This can simply be done by putting the photos on disk/cd and mailing them to yourself. I've always done a few copies and then of course don't open them. (This is for whoever asked on page one).

This is completely false information. You do not need to establish a copyright or mail anything to yourself. A copyright is in affect as soon as you take the pic!

As Brian stated, mailing your own works to yourself does nothing, except maybe waste your own time and money!

Darin Chappell · Aug 20, 2003

While it is true that mailing yourself your pics does not establish copyright, it does give you a date of origination to use for proof. If you send yourself the pics on a cd in a registered letter/package, and you keep the package unopened, then if you do have to sue someone, you have the date of origination nailed down for yourself in a courtroom. That's the benefit of mailing your pics to yourself.

sputnik · Aug 20, 2003

Also...

Also, a receit from the photo place you had the images developed for your own records will give a time of origin as well.

If you value your own works, you would keep a record of all images. If you use a digital and load them on your own pc you can of course establish a time then.

In any case, someone using your works without permission is a blatant copyright infringement.

BrianB · Aug 20, 2003

Darin Chappell said:
While it is true that mailing yourself your pics does not establish copyright, it does give you a date of origination to use for proof. If you send yourself the pics on a cd in a registered letter/package, and you keep the package unopened, then if you do have to sue someone, you have the date of origination nailed down for yourself in a courtroom. That's the benefit of mailing your pics to yourself.

That's known as a "poor man's copyright" Here's a FAQ from the Copyright office regarding registering copyrighted material, etc. Item 7 deals with mailing material to yourself:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html

Basically, it might be acceptable as evidence of the creation date of the work, but it's not as strong as registration. Whether a court accepts sealed material or not might even be in question. It's a simple matter to steam open an envelope. Evidence tape (if you've ever given a urine sample, you may have seen a variant on this) is made pre-perforated so that it's evident immediately if it's been tampered with. Is your method of sealing as foolproof as evidence tape? Does it need to be to be admissable? (Maybe not, the point is, we don't know, and unless a lawyer wanders in, AND that lawyer is familiar with the practices in your locality, we don't really know. But there are certainly rules for what's admissable.)

Without a public registration of copyright, you won't get as much in damages. Realistically, the best you can hope for is to get the offending party to stop using your work. If they don't, then you're mostly out of luck with or without proof that the work is yours. If it becomes a problem, you'll need a copyright lawyer to sort out the best course of action. As in, are the damages enough to warrant the legal expense, and are your chances of recovering the legal expenses good enough to warrant going to court. In many cases, they aren't. Registration brings a bit better level of protection, at least in regards to recovering legal expenses.

Here's a PDF circular from the Copyright office regarding protection of online works.

http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ66.pdf

Rainwater: New Scam

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