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RAPTORs?

G

groovygeckos

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Allright everyone... I know something you dont :raspberry

But before we get to that: What do you think of the APTOR/RAPTOR genetics? I mean what is going on, anyone have an idea yet?


Last year we bred our APTOR & Het and hatched RAPTORs, I was told there was only a slight chance any of the "APTORs" were het for the eye color gene. It turns out almost everyone that bought females also hatched "RAPTOR"- albinos or "Eclipse"(same thing as a RAPTOR, they are just non-albino).

We know "Patternless" is not recessive for the simple fact, when I bred APTOR X Red Stripe, Jungles and Stripes were produced. They would have to be normal banded, double heterozygous babies if it were recessive. Same thing applies to Stripes, Jungles, Reverse Stripes etc. they are NOT seperate simple recessive traits because they can all work together. :ack2:

I have heard of a theory going around. That a Stripe may be a 'super' form of Jungle. A Reverse Stripe may be the 'super' form of Stripe. "Patternless" may be a 'super' Reverse Stripe. And the solid or 'snake' eye (Eclipse/RAPTOR) mutation might actually be the 'super' form of APTOR "Patternless"(?). It makes a little sense but when I bred Stripe to Reverse Stripe, "Patternless" was also created. Then the fact our RAPTOR babies had an "APTOR" and a Reverse Stripe for parents. That throws the theory off a bit, I think.

Couldnt be co-dominant with 5 possible outcomes. Could it? It is all very confusing so if anyone has some ideas here let us all know.

Ideas, input, anything, its much appreciated. More to come!! :raspberry
 
Well, I hatched out a snake eyed RAPTOR..... by breeding a Snake Eyed Raptor to a Jungle Giant Albino, which I bought two years ago. I also had 3 embryos die in the egg out of 25 eggs total. Two of those dead embryos where Raptors that also came from a Jungle Giant Albino.............. I'm not quite sure what's going on with these genes, but in my opinion jungles and stripes show up as one in the same.

Matt
 
It's nice to hear you finally admit that RAPTOR/JUNGLE/STRIPE isn't simple recessive. :raspberry
_____________________

Q: What is meant by a gene being dominant?
A: A gene that is expressed phenotypically in heterozygous or homozygous individuals.

Q: What is meant by a gene being recessive?
A: A gene that is phenotypically expressed in the homozygous state but has its expression masked in the presence of a dominant gene.

Q: What is meant by a gene being codominant?
A: Genes that are on a given loci that are both expressed in some degree.
_____________________

What you speak of could be a similiar mess to what we're dealing with in the cornsnake hobby with the Ultra...

The (aa) amel and (au) ultra genes are codominant to each other, and both are recessive to (A+) their wild-type counterpart. An ultramel has one amel gene, and one ultra gene. Since the genes both occur at the 'amel locus' and are co-dominant to each other, the resulting animal is one that looks something between an amel, and a hypo. Since this is a new morph, expect a lot of variation, especially due to the co-dominance. Ultramels can be made by crossing an ultra x amel = 100% ultramels, or by crossing ultramel x ultramel, ultramel x amel, or ultramel x ultra.
 
Hehe Steph, Im still not sure where I ever said they were. :raspberry I think you were focusing on the fact I was saying they 'act recessive'. Dont worry about it, Im not. :)

Thanks, Michael.

Matt, that is very interesting. Again it throws off my thoughts on what is going on. LOL I dont think there is anyway that your JGA is a het, I think this is really just something more to do with patterning.
 
Hehe Steph, Im still not sure where I ever said they were. I think you were focusing on the fact I was saying they 'act recessive'. Dont worry about it, Im not.
Click to expand...

As I've always said...It either is recessive or it isn't recessive...Their are no in betweens. :)

Hope you don't mind, but I'm going to pull the above quote apart in hopes to understand what all actually happened with your pairings...Would it be possible to get SPECIFICS as to what was produced including percentage of which?

APTOR x h. APTOR = RAPTORS + ?

APTOR x Red Stripe = Jungle + Stripe + ?

I personally have bred Jungle to Normal and produced Aberrants (Jungle body pattern, banded tail) + Banded Normals (estimated 50/50 mix)

As for Stripe being the "Super" of the Jungle...I had the same thoughts...However they were thrown out the window when I did the Jungle x Normal pairing last year. This year I've paired the same Jungle to a Tangerine Bell (eggs are incubating :) ) in hopes something more interesting will pop out.

It might be possible that Stripe/Jungle/Abberant are Co-dominant to each other in one way or another as I described with the Ultra/Amel example.

This is something that I wanted to do using the LGR. Monitor the crossings and results in hopes of figuring everything out collectively. BTW, the LGR is still in progress, my programmer just had a baby a few weeks ago and I'm sure you can imagine how that changed his life! :)
 
As far as APTOR X Reverse Stripe H. APTOR, I hatched 3 eggs only. 2 were red eyed. One is pretty much the "Patternless" w/ one snake eye. The other is a Jungle w/ ones solid and one snake eye. The third was a Jungle.

APTOR X RS again I hatched only 3, 2 are Stripes and another a Jungle.

Co-dominant to each other in one way or another as I described with the Ultra/Amel example.
Click to expand...
See I didnt think this sounded right to have Jungle>Stripe>Reverse>Patternless>Eclipse all linked in that way, but I guess it is feasible knowing that.

I would have thought 'well they act codominant to eachother' :hehe:
 
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TripleMoonsExotic said:
As I've always said...It either is recessive or it isn't recessive...Their are no in betweens. :)
Click to expand...

There are actually traits that are produced by literally TONS of genes! Take human eye color for example. It takes three gene pairs to determine. I think that the leopard gecko eye acts much in the same way. I think that just because the red eye or snake eyes are passed on doesn't mean they can't be somehow "made" by ascertaining the right mix from a whole plethora of genes in Leos. I think its the same with pattern. Jungles and stripes mix in odd ways, suggesting in my eyes that multiple alleles effect where the pigment appears. With so many genes, I don't find it hard to believe that they each contain the ability to effect one another, and that there's more than one allele for a trait.
 
Tyler, do you understand basic genetics? See post #4 for an explanation of Recessive/Dominant/Co-Dominant mutations.

The mutations that do not fit into these categories are considered "selectively" or "line" bred being that more then one gene effects the outcome and it is impossible (outside expensive scientific genetic breakdowns of course) to identify the specific alleles/genes involved. Of course their are variations such as the Ultra/Amel example I made which is Co-Dominant & Recessive.

When I said it either is recessive or it isn't, I was referring to a number of conversations Dan and I have had on useing genetics terms properly.
 
I still say that some lines of stripe are recessive! ;-p

On a related note, I hatched a Snake Eyed Raptor from breeding Red Eyed Raptor X "Patternless" Red Stripe Het Albino(Red Stripe x Reverse Stripe Tremper Albino).

I also produced a Red Eyed Raptor from a Red Eyed Raptor X SHT Het Aptor breeding.

I have produced all Red Eyed Raptors from my Red Eyed Raptor x Red Eyed Raptor breedings so far.
 
KelliH said:
I have produced all Red Eyed Raptors from my Red Eyed Raptor x Red Eyed Raptor breedings so far.
Click to expand...
That's good to hear. I've been wondering if the RAPTOR genes act recessive. What is this Ultra/Amel thing Steph?
 
Ultra/Amel thing from Post #4:

TripleMoonsExotic said:
The (aa) amel and (au) ultra genes are codominant to each other, and both are recessive to (A+) their wild-type counterpart. An ultramel has one amel gene, and one ultra gene. Since the genes both occur at the 'amel locus' and are co-dominant to each other, the resulting animal is one that looks something between an amel, and a hypo. Since this is a new morph, expect a lot of variation, especially due to the co-dominance. Ultramels can be made by crossing an ultra x amel = 100% ultramels, or by crossing ultramel x ultramel, ultramel x amel, or ultramel x ultra.
Click to expand...

In basic terms...

Amel & Ultra are codominant to each other, but are recessive to their wildtype (IE Normal). Thus they are codominant & recessive.

KelliH said:
I still say that some lines of stripe are recessive!
Click to expand...

Ok, but can you identify those lines by just looking at them? Is their a noteable difference between your "recessive" Stripes and "run-of-the-mill" Stripes?
 
On a related note, I hatched a Snake Eyed Raptor from breeding Red Eyed Raptor X "Patternless" Red Stripe Het Albino(Red Stripe x Reverse Stripe Tremper Albino).
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting, Kelli.

The "Patternless" Kelli posted about is one that came from me. It is mainly the reason I posted. It seems that we stumbled upon some answers. Last year I bred Red Stripe X Reverse Stripe Albino (broken patterned). About 25% off the babies start off, or turn into, what we had been calling "Patternless Red Stripes". Alberto a A&M Gecko had the same results from said cross last year, and coined the term. Well as we have been thinking, APTOR-Patternless, comes from crossing the patterning lines. In this case it was Red Stripe X Reverse Stripe Albino. The "Patternless" geckos I produced ARE the same as the APTOR, and can even produce Eclipse/RAPTOR!!!

Cant wait to see the pics Kelli :)

If you ask me, Leopard Gecko genetics are different :alien: than other animals period, and there is just too much to understand.

I still say that some lines of stripe are recessive!
Click to expand...
This just prooves to me, there are lines that act recessive when crossed out (I have one banded 'double het' someone else produced.) The patterned lines we picked up, just happened to produce no bandeds, but we never bred them to bandeds. :hehe: Im pretty sure thats why. These same lines are found to act similar to co-dominance when used with other patterned lines. So there IMO has to be some sort of link between all of them. Either it is one big giant polygenic jumble of things, or there is some truth to this recessive/co-dom theory.

But "Patternless" can come from Reverse Stripe X Reverse Stripe? And Stripe X Reverse Stripe! LOL Throws of the 'theory', doesnt it?
 
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What you speak of could be a similiar mess to what we're dealing with in the cornsnake hobby with the Ultra...
Click to expand...
There is more from that on the first page. I took it as the cornsnake version of a 'hypo'.
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
Tyler, do you understand basic genetics? See post #4 for an explanation of Recessive/Dominant/Co-Dominant mutations.

The mutations that do not fit into these categories are considered "selectively" or "line" bred being that more then one gene effects the outcome and it is impossible (outside expensive scientific genetic breakdowns of course) to identify the specific alleles/genes involved. Of course their are variations such as the Ultra/Amel example I made which is Co-Dominant & Recessive.

When I said it either is recessive or it isn't, I was referring to a number of conversations Dan and I have had on useing genetics terms properly.
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't understand that it was something between you and Dan. But anyway, why can't these traits be "partially" line bred, or incompletely codom or recessive? Theres no law that says Raptors have to be some sort of simple mutation! I have read enough articles on complex human gene mutation to know such a thing is possible. All I stated was that I think eye mutations and some pattern mutations are not a result of a single gene, never did I state it wasn't line bred, or at least to a certain extent. I understand genetics well enough to discuss it, and I also understand that everything that appears to be simple doesn't always have a simple explanation! Perhaps the genes that decide the red eye in raptors only act as they do because one gene finishes a sequence that has already been floating around in our collections. Pinpointing the alleles that do effect line bred mutations is quite possible, there is just not the time or the resources to do so for geckos today. We have to finish with humans first I guess ;)
 
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