RAPTORs?

[TripleMoonsExotic]

But anyway, why can't these traits be "partially" line bred, or incompletely codom or recessive?

Because then you would not be useing genetics terms properly, you would not be explaining genetics how they really work. You can not change proven genetics termonology to suit your needs (well you can say whatever you wish, but you look ridiculous doing it). My feeling is, if you can't use them properly, don't use them at all. However, you can have incomplete dominance, which is a form of codominance. Also, it is completely possible to have a recessive mutation line bred for a specific look (an example being the Candycane muation in cornsnakes, which is a selectively bred Amel).

Pinpointing the alleles that do effect line bred mutations is quite possible, there is just not the time or the resources to do so for geckos today. We have to finish with humans first I guess

I never said it wasn't. However, I did say that it is highly unlikely it will happen any time soon. I could see something along those lines happening in BPs or other "higher end" morphs prior to Leos.

As for the Eclipse eye mutation seen in Leos, I am positive that it is not line bred. Eye color to that extent is definitly not something that was selectively bred. It's just a matter of time until someone actually figures out how it actually works, though it is obviously is not recessive due to the findings presented so far.

I also could believe that Jungle/Stripe/Aberrant are codominant among themselves. As always, when I say Stripe I am not referring to the Redstripe line which is a completely different matter. As to the "new" Patternless, it is completely possible that it's the "Super" form of the Redstripe.

What is an Ultra?

An Ultra is a recessive mutation (Codom to Amel), the 4th or 5th "Hypo" we have in cornsnakes.

Don't you just love genetics?

 

[surfrkidts]

The mutations that do not fit into these categories are considered "selectively" or "line" bred being that more then one gene effects the outcome and it is impossible (outside expensive scientific genetic breakdowns of course) to identify the specific alleles/genes involved.

I believe you did say it was impossible. Anyways, I am not trying to go against "proven" genetics terminology, I'm quite sorry if that offended you so deeply. I am solely suggesting a theory and trying to say my opinion that the "proven terminology" of genetics may not be applicable in every case. I think rules are made to be broken, even the so called "laws of nature". Besides, most gene work has been done with simpler beings and humans, or animals easy to work with in labs. There are endless chains of animal DNA we haven't even begun to find the real workings of yet. If I look ridiculous to you, by all means feel free to utilize the blocking feature. Now, lets not argue on Dan's thread, if you would like to discuss my theories of complex genetic mutation (as created by reading of articles about seemingly random gene mutations that cause disease in humans) feel free to PM me or send me a quick email.

 

[surfrkidts]

Please excuse the quote and the part about impossibility. Either I couldn't read that and skipped over it (bad eyesight) or I had a brainlapse. Somehow I can't remember reading the parenthesis. Sorry bout the misunderstanding.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Read what's in the parentheses, Tyler...Though for sake of the argument, I should have put "nearly" between "is" and "impossible."

This statement...

Because then you would not be useing genetics terms properly, you would not be explaining genetics how they really work. You can not change proven genetics termonology to suit your needs (well you can say whatever you wish, but you look ridiculous doing it).

...was not meant to be directed at you specifically. What I was saying "you" it was in reference to the entire human race. Please do not take it personal.

I really think that you are making this out more then it should be. Genetics themselves are not black and white of course, but the definitions (Recessive, Codom, etc.) are. When they (IE the scientist studying genetics) come out with a new word for what you describe, and it can be proven in Leos...GOOD! Until then, I still feel that if you're going to use the terms, use them correctly (I know for a fact that I am not alone in that matter either). I really don't understand why genetics terminology and proper usage is such a touchy subject with the Leo community.

Using the terms improperly from the start just continues the incorrect useage. Of course, it is doubtful that we will ever see everyone using terminology correctly, but everyone really should consider taking the small steps to prevent the domino effect from happening.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Please excuse the quote and the part about impossibility. Either I couldn't read that and skipped over it (bad eyesight) or I had a brainlapse. Somehow I can't remember reading the parenthesis. Sorry bout the misunderstanding.

No worries, Tyler. I've done the same thing! I must have been replying when you posted this!

 

[surfrkidts]

Sorry about taking it personally. It hasn't been the best week so I must have jumped to the worst conclusion I could find. I will work on that new word. As long as it has bubble in it I'll be happy.

 

[surfrkidts]

Oh and until then, my theory will just have to go by the name of quagmire . Afterall, I'm not trying to prove anything, just stating a viewpoint. I'll make sure not to use words that dont have the definitions I have in mind again.

 

[KelliH]

Ok, but can you identify those lines by just looking at them? Is their a noteable difference between your "recessive" Stripes and "run-of-the-mill" Stripes?

Well, no, but I know the animals I work with, the bold stripes and red stripes. What lines are you working with? Have you outcrossed your lines and done your own test breedings?

Sorry about taking it personally. It hasn't been the best week so I must have jumped to the worst conclusion I could find. I will work on that new word. As long as it has bubble in it I'll be happy.

Sorry you had a bad week. Isn't it just great that we have Fauna Drama to distract us from our "real lives"! ;-)

It's all in good fun!

 

[surfrkidts]

Sorry you had a bad week. Isn't it just great that we have Fauna Drama to distract us from our "real lives"! ;-)

Haha so true! I admit I've been pretty snappy lately, as AP testing, state testing, SATs and SATIIs have been main focuses as well as good 'ol track anf field. Sometimes I get so frustrated with inability to do everything at once I forget to act in as lucid a manner as I normally would.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

That's what I mean, Kelli...The Redstripes (as an example) 100% look different then an "average" Stripe...So that very well would be a way to identify them visually. Stripes vs. Redstripes are night and day! I would also think your Bold Stripes would have a specific look to identify them as well. When I say Stripe, I simply mean Stripe (see attached picture, she is nothing more then an average Stripe)...Not the Redstripes...

I haven't outcrossed my Stripes yet, but I have outcrossed my Jungles (produced Aberrants & Banded Normals). I'm doing a different outcross involving my new Bell male with a Jungle female this year (eggs incubating! ). I am also planning a Jungle x Stripe pairing to see what offspring come of that.

Tyler, it took me a minute to figure out what your word "quagmire" pronounced as. *lol* It's fun to say.

 

[groovygeckos]

Here I thought the word for what Tyler was describing was POLYGENIC. We are by no means genetic experts either IMO, and I dont think its as cleancut as everything either being recessive, dom, codom, or linebred. Arent there maybe some other types of genetics? Ide almost bet there are, but hey we are only reptile enthusiasts/breeders, what do we know. Im not about to rule anything out yet.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Very good catch, Dan! What he is describing is Polygenic, but is still selective breeding, as selective breeding is crossings to create characteristics controlled by several genes.
__________________

Q. What is meant by Polygenic?
A. A characteristic controlled by the interaction of genes at more than one locus.

 

[Dan Lubinsky]

Thanx, guys. It's nice to see different perspectives and observations. Sometimes it just takes a different word or two to make something click and you guys have cleared up a cloud or two for me. Last season was the first time we produced some "patternless redstripes" - they look like non-albino Aptors, extreme carrot tail and all. They stem from HQ's Redstripes and are seven or eight generations removed from their Tremper beginnings.

 

[surfrkidts]

Tyler, it took me a minute to figure out what your word "quagmire" pronounced as. *lol* It's fun to say.

Haha thats exactly why I chose it. "Quagmire" and "bubbles" have to be to two best words ever

 

[Ian S.]

Hi there,
I just thought I'd post the results of my first hatchlings so far this season. Thought it may be a help to the thread. The male's mother was a red stripe, father a reverse stripe Tremper albino. The male physically is a red stripe with mucka carrot tail. about 70% The female is a bold stripe tremper albino. I got from Jeanne

The babies.....

 

[groovygeckos]

Nice babies, Ian. I like the "Patternless" one!

 

[Ian S.]

Thanks Dan!....Awsome! Jeanne sorry if I asked you before. Do you know the parents of the striped albino??

 

[Gregg M]

I dont think its as cleancut as everything either being recessive, dom, codom, or linebred. Arent there maybe some other types of genetics?

Yep, there are other genetics that can be at play like incomplete dominance and incomplete recessive genetics.... They all work in different ways.... incomplete recessive i.e. a recessive gene that is unmasked when other genes are present or absent. This may or may not be relevent to this topic but it is info none the less.... I think it might be though...

 

[surfrkidts]

Yep, there are other genetics that can be at play like incomplete dominance and incomplete recessive genetics.... They all work in different ways.... incomplete recessive i.e. a recessive gene that is unmasked when other genes are present or absent. This may or may not be relevent to this topic but it is info none the less.... I think it might be though...

You're explanation of the incomplete recessive is what I was going for. I read an article on it a while back, but couldn't find it, so I was going from memory (which was a mistake hehe). At least I know I can retain information longer than my goldfish... thanks for the info gregg

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Neat, Ian! I'd love to see more actual pictures of offspring from particular crosses (Example: RAPTOR x NORMAL, RAPTOR x RedStripe, etc)!

They all work in different ways.... incomplete recessive i.e. a recessive gene that is unmasked when other genes are present or absent.

That sounds like the Ultra/Amel situation. I don't think anyone's out right said Amel is incomplete recessive to Ultra because I don't really think that's how it actually works. When you get into messes like that, it puts a damper on smoothing genetics useage out.