Really Weird molting......among other things

[6y0ballpython]

Hi, my ball python has been in a continuous shed since we had some difficulties surrounding some plumbing pipe. Here is our story.... I decided that getting my bp something to do while he was in his cage would stop him from scraping his nose along the top screen lid all night long trying to get out. So I went to the local hardware store and purchased some 3 inch black plumbing pipe for him to crawl through and sleep in to keep him occupied. It served its purpose very well, but being that we love "Monty" very much, we take him out of his cage daily. Well, I thought that I was taking him out carefully from the pipe, but what I didn't know was that I was creating large "scrapes" along his back bone and belly over the course of about a week. He ended up with some pretty nasty sores that he very nicely cleaned up himself by shedding 4 times in about 6 weeks. Each molt would bring the skin on his back and belly to a better stage of healing. Now that the sores are all completely healed (about 3 weeks ago), he is now going into his 6th consecutive shed. I cannot see why he would still be wanting to shed as there are not any of the original sores left on his body except for the one on his nose from rubbing on the screen. This one is a pretty big sore (about the size of the colored plastic ball on the top of a stick pin) It sits right in between his nostrils and is quite deep. It is healing with each molt. I wonder if he is molting still because of this sore????? Now here is the REALLY WEIRD PART TO THIS STORY.....about every third molt, he does something REALLY weird.......he molts each individual scale by itself. What a mess!!!!He's done it twice now. Well, he finished doing his second individual scale molt in which I had to help him with, about a week ago, and about two days after that was over, I had to help him with a FULL molt which came off in pieces as it was glued onto him and very dry. I know that I have a humidity problem because of the heat lamp. It is very difficult to keep the levels up in the entire cage. I have a screen lid which I cover up with a multi layer sheet except for where the light bulb sits over on the hot end. Do you think maybe I need to get him a "humid box"? I also use a fogger/mister that I run every day to help with the levels. He has molted every week since the middle of July. I have had to help him shed each time by soaking him for about an hour in tepid water, then rolling him through my hands to get the skin off once he split it at the tip of his nose and it started coming off of his chin. Otherwise he'll just sit there for a week or two without it coming off. It does come off very nicely once I soak him, but in pieces. Well, since all of these molts his poor skin is so sore. He jumps at every touch. Has anyone ever seen a snake molt each individual scale like he has (twice now)? Has anyone seen a snake continuously molt in order to repair their skin? Is this stress related? We love Monty so much and I just want to help him get rid of this ailment. He is still eating his live mouse every Monday, he is drinking a big gulp after each feeding (he has always done this), and he is very docile and timid in nature. I have his cage at about 85-86 degrees on the cool end and about 90 degrees on the warm end under the infrared heat bulb (please refer to the pictures I have included here). he has two caves (one at each end) to hide in. I have a water fountain that constantly runs in the cage as well. I wrote to his previous owners and asked them if Monty had ever had a complete one piece shed, and they said "no". So I asked my local snake expert at the petstore, and she said that I do not have my humidity right, and I should start feeding him fresh meat. He has only ever had frozen mice, and before I got him a few months ago, for 6 years he was only fed every two weeks. I feed him a live mouse every week, and believe me, he's hungry. He's grown 3.5 inches since we purchased him in April/06. Should I just keep the humidity and temps where they are and let him be? Stop handling him so much? Any changes I should make to his heat sources? . I do have an under the tank heater, but only on the cool end of the tank. He loves this and it keeps the temp about 85 degrees. The lamp however, can heat things up to about 95 degrees when I don't leave the sheets off enough. I would appreciate all the help I can get so that I can get Monty's sheds healthy as he has never experienced a full shed in one piece in his whole life. And I am sorry if I have repeated myself in a few areas, I tend to forget what I have written and end up saying things over again. Thanks so much everyone. Monty and I await your input.

 

[hhmoore]

Kind of pressed for time, so I will admit that I only skimmed your post. There are a few details that I will come back and look for later. In the mean time, there are a variety of things that will cause frequent shedding - including high temperatures and skin irritants - but the frequency you described is greater than anything that I have personally encountered (I had a 17+ ft retic that shed every 2 - 2.5 weeks for a couple months til I figured out the problem).
That aside (for now, anyway), let's turn to the scale shedding. I have seen this before - but not for the reason I am about to suggest - were you using a petroleum based antibiotic ointment on the sores? or could there have been some kind of coating inside the pipe/tube? My experience with that kind of scale shedding was after trying a mite treatment method which involved rubbing mineral oil the snake. There were scales everywhere, and they did continue to shed them after the next full slough. A triple antibiotic ointment would have similar results. Also, if there was some sort of chemical or lubricant inside the pipe/tube, that could have caused both the sores and the scale shedding.

When I have a bit more time, I will be back to reread with more of an eye for details.

 

[hhmoore]

I am inclined to think that the frequency of shedding is related to temperature - it looks as if the thermometer probe is taped up on the side of the tank. It really needs to be where the snake is (on the floor). Also, the cool side should not have the UTH...the snake needs to be able to thermoregulate, and having heat sources at both ends impedes his ability to do so - especially with a small tank (that one looks like a 15 gallon). And is that Reflectix (?sp) on the back and sides of the tank? More later, lol, this time I really am going

**edited - see red text

 

[harrellharrell]

To up yor humidity, try some kind of a plastic cover over half of the tank. This also holds heat, so you will have to adjust accordingly. The only time I have ever seen that type of shedding was when I was a new hobbyist and had the same humisity issues that you do. I do trust Haralds experience and would say that either the humidity or what he described, is probably the issue.
Good Luck.
Melissa

 

[harrellharrell]

*humidity

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

The first thing I noticed is that he looks really skinny. One mouse per week for a 6-year-old male just does not sound like enough. All of my snakes that are a year old or more are on small to medium rats every week, depending on size. If he won't take rats, then try 2-4 live mice per meal (depending on how big your mice are).

Your cool side temp is high...if your warm side is 90, your cool side should be 80-82 with no heat source at all. Harold is right, your snake can't thermoregulate properly. Humidity is another issue, which is easily solved by switching to a substrate that holds humidity better (like coconut husk, aspen, cypress, etc.) and covering 2/3 of the screen lid. Try covering it with 3 layers of tinfoil then 2 layers of duct tape. It will keep in heat, so your thermostat will have to be adjusted, but it will keep in humidity too. If you switch the substrate and cover the top and mist every 2-3 days, your humidity should improve dramatically.

 

[hhmoore]

"I asked my local snake expert at the petstore" sorry, really that isn't directed at you, but that statement kills me (and SOME petstore people really DO know about snakes)

That is a 6year old snake?? Boy, that means I was off in tank size, lol - that's what I get for skimming.
I just scrolled up & looked at the pics a little closer - considering that the standard dome for an IR fixture is 10", I'd be inclined to up my guess to a 30 long...except none of the other size relationships support that. I have a hard time calling it anything over a 20. Luckily, it doesn't really matter, lol, other than giving some idea to the possible temperatures/conditions. The perceived size of the snake is really not much more applicable to the situation. Let me make sure I have the info straight.
*You have had the snake for 6 months.
*He is having frequent sheds, and significant (and recurrent) scale shedding.
- I am having some difficulty distinguishing how often the snake does either one, though. Since they are different processes, and likely have different causes, you must consider them 2 different things. How long has the frequent shedding been happening, and how many times has he shed since it began. Is there any visual indication of irritation (reddened areas, etc), regardless of the source?

 

[6y0ballpython]

Wow, what a great response!!! I am so very happy to have great herp people to talk with. I am learning so much about Monty every day. After Monty got those sores from the pipes, I put polysporin antibiotic petroleum based ointment on him, and all this time I have been putting vaseline on him when he does this weird kind of scale shedding. It helps bring the scales off better. I will stop putting this on. I guess they wouldn't have vaseline or polysporin(very close to your neosporin) in the wild, so why would they benefit from it in our homes hey?....lol. I think good old tap water is the best remedy to get skin off anyways. Monty is doing better right now, that picture of him in his tank was taken only one day ago. He still has a sore on his nose, and some old marks from the pipe scrapes, but he looks a lot better than he has in the past few months. I have two thermometers in the tank....the one you can see really well on the right is on a stand(I will lay it down in order to get a better reading of the bottom of the tank) and the one on the left by the cave rock (kind of hard to see) is on the floor for the best reading. I thank you for your advice and I agree that my hunch was also the humidity. Now that he is healed anyways. I have the UTH at the cool end opposite to the lamp (it's directly under his rock cave). Should I ditch the lamp and put another UTH that covers to the middle of his cage and just leave the right hand side with nothing for it to be a cool end? This end right now is the hot end because of the lamp, but under his rock on the left hand side, it's always about 89 degrees anyways. I think I have too much heat and not enough moisture hey? I really want to get things right for him because we are striving for a full one peice molt for him. It would feel so good to him, I know it would. He hates it when I have to peel him off and soak him in a bucket. That's not how it's supposed to be, I know.....Well, I know I tend to ramble on, but I want to give everyone as much information as I possibly can so that I can answer all of your questions better. The other day when the lamp bulb burnt out, I had to go down to the local pet store to get him another one....well, when I returned home, the entire cage (glass) was fogged right up and it was semi warm in there. The humidity was at about 80% and the heat was at about 86 degrees under his cave, but a cool 71 degrees in the rest of the cage. I am going to go to petland tonight and buy another UTH and see how it works. It can't hurt to try. I will let you know how this works. And yes, that is reflective polystyrofoam on the outside of the glass to keep the cage warmer. It works well. Any concerns about it? I also keep Monty on paper towel covered in facecloths. I change the cloths about every week, or when he soils them. If anyone has any questions about respiratory infections in snakes, I am a master at this.....Monty has had two and I am also a Registered Nurse, so I like to think I know a little about it based on my knowledge and some experience. I like to help others out if I can because everyone is so good to me here. Thanks a bunch.

 

[hhmoore]

This end right now is the hot end because of the lamp, but under his rock on the left hand side, it's always about 89 degrees anyways. I think I have too much heat and not enough moisture hey?

Like I said - I suspect that the frequent sheds are due to temperature. 89 degrees on the cool side is 10-15 degrees too high. On the other hand, the 86/71 that you encountered without the light isn't quite acceptable, either. You can probably regulate this by changing the bulb and positioning it a little off center (more toward the side with the pad). Let me know what size tank you have and I can try to be more specific on the wattage.
No concerns about having the reflective foil around the tank - you just have to be careful that it doesn't get too hot in there (ahem, cough, cough).
Using a lower wattage bulb should do wonders for the humidity, but I would recommend bark mulch as a substrate - it dries out slower than most other substrates, and you can tell by looking at it when it needs to be sprayed/misted. With that little fogger/fountain in there, you will have to be careful as the temp goes down, too - too much humidity is as dangerous as not enough.


I love being right...even sweeter that you are an RN, lol (says the RRT)

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

When I had my ball pythons in tanks, I used a heat lamp with a 75w red lightbulb on one end, and a small UTH on the bottom of the same end. Both items were plugged into a thermostat to keep them regulated. That was the warm side and I kept it at 90 degrees. The other end was the cool side and I didn't have any kind of heat source on that side, it maintained at 80 degrees. An 8-10 degree gradient is what most care sheets recommend.

I'm an admin on another forum and we have a few pinned threads dedicated to glass tank setups and general ball python care. Here are the links, I think you might find them helpful for fixing temp/humidity issues. Good luck! It's great to know you're out there seeking help for your little guy...there are too many people that could care less how they keep their snakes.

http://ballpython.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3023

http://ballpython.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3359

 

[6y0ballpython]

Ok guys, here's what I'm going to do......tomorrow I'm going to Petland (I live in northern Canada, and the only petstores in our city of 50,000 people are Petland and a small family run one that's been here for over 20 years-I do most of my dealing with this one as they are the only one that sells live mice). But I think that Petland will be the best place for me to buy substrate. I really like the idea of that coconut bark (it looks great and clean!). I do not know if I can buy it up here, so I will try and find something similar. I had some big chunky bark, but I gave that to my brother for his garter snake. I like that coconut bark as it looks like dirt and is much nicer for the snake the crawl on. Also, I will try the idea of covering my screen lid with tin foil and duct tape. It looks like a good idea so what the heck hey!! I have a 75 watt red light bulb right now so I will keep that. I also have an UTH on one end. I will transfer the light bulb so it is over the UTH, and have the other end with nothing. I will also remove the fogger/mister, and invest in a water bottle (much cheaper). Also, I will cut up the peice of driftwood that I have (it is huge and the lady I bought Monty off of paid over a $100 for it). I will put some of this on both ends so he can bask and/or rub against it to molt. It looks like I have pretty much the same kind of tank and setup started as the one in the link that you sent to me. I will also try and find a good thermostat. I think maybe a hardware store might be a better place to find one if Petland doesn't have one. If my memory serves me right, Petland doesn't have any good ones. I may end up buying one off of the internet. I will get this right someday,.....I know I will!!! Thanks for your advice. It looks like your setups and advice will get Monty a better environment. The people that had him before for 6 years (he's 6.5 now) had him in a sunroom, only had a water dish, the driftwood, bark substrate, and the lamp for him, and he managed to survive for that long. However, he never had a full shed on his own, and it would take him almost 3 weeks to get it off when he did molt. They fed him one small frozen mouse every 2 weeks. Since we've gotten him, he's gained almost 50 grams, he's grown almost 2 inches, and his girth has only grown about half an inch. We feed him an adult mouse every Monday. You think I need to feed him two each Monday? Or maybe one mouse every 5 days? You said he looks skinny......maybe it was because he's all stretched out in the picture????I thought he looked skinny compared to the pictures on the forums, but I really don't know exactly what he should look like because he is our first one. What's your advice? His appetite is good. He really scarfs down the live mice better than the frozen. I think it's the fact that they are crawling all over him and he really has no choice but to kill them to get them off of him. However, last week he shyed away from the mouse and tried to escape the enclosure. he really didnot want anything to do with it. It was directly after I had finished shedding him. A few hours later that night, he ate the mouse with some encouragement. Here is an upclose picture of him today.....A comparison of him next to a pencil to give you an idea of his size, also, a picture of the sore on his nose, as well, just a nice curled up picture on my pillow.

thanks

 

[hhmoore]

You haven't said how big the tank is (or I missed it?), but I am inclined to suggest that the combination of the 75 watt bulb AND uth on the same side will be way too hot. Overall temps are already too hot with them on opposite sides, putting them together is not going to cure that. Granted, adding a particulate substrate such as coco-fiber/bark will diffuse the heat from the UTH; but until you see just how much, you need to be careful about the choices you make.
Another place you can look for substrate is a garden center/nursery. They should carry a variety of bark mulch (this is not the same as bark nuggets, which are the big chunks) - cypress or pine are both acceptable, and in my area the pine is a bit cheaper. *just don't go with the RED cypress (you'll know it when you see it, lol) or cedar.

As for appearance, he is small for his age, but does not appear significantly underweight to me. The spot on his nose will heal up with time...the frequent sheddings probably slowed the healing a bit, since that area gets a lot of abuse in the process

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

As long as she gets a thermostat and has digital thermometers with probes to measure the temps, the lamp + the UTH should be fine. I used that exact same combo on all my tanks without problems. Together without a thermostat they would definitely get too warm. If you decide to get a thermostat online, you can use the links I posted at the bottom of one of those threads I showed you...MG Reptiles ships to Canada, and I bought my thermostats from him.

He does look skinny and small for his age. He seems mushy/thin instead of being solid/hard and round. 2 females I took in looked exactly like that because they were only fed 1-2 mice per month. Now that I've been feeding them one rat per week, they've both put on over 200g in the last 7 weeks. All of my adult males are over 1800g (they're all 4 years old and older). This is one of my adult males, they are all this size:

I would try to see if he'd take a very small rat every week. If he only wants mice, then 2-3 large mice per week would do well. Or you could try one large mouse every 5 days like you mentioned. If he gets shy with live ones but doesn't like frozen, you could try stunning them before offering them to him or holding them by the tail with tongs so they aren't crawling all over him. Sometimes that freaks ball pythons out, I know mine get weirded out when the prey crawls on them. If I hold it, they'll snatch it with no problem.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

cypress or pine are both acceptable

Pine is just as toxic to snakes as cedar according to most caresheets.

 

[hhmoore]

Pine is just as toxic to snakes as cedar according to most caresheets.

I don't want to derail this thread with that discussion, so I will just say that over the years I have seen as many references stating that pine bark mulch is acceptable as those that state it isn't. Perhaps there is a difference between shavings and mulch, with regard to the acids and aromatic oils? Bottom line, to be on the safe side - nobody argues about the safety of cypress or orchid bark.

 

[6y0ballpython]

thanks you two....great advice. you both have great knowledge in the area of bp's. My tank is a 35 gallon. It is just right for his size according to what I've read. He can stretch out in it and still have about 6 inches to spare. I will get a thermostat and hook both the UTH and lamp to it in order to regulate temperature. Or, I could ditch the lamp and just use that UTH's and hook them up to thermostats to keep things regulated. What do you think would work best for me? I really don't like the lamp because it does dry the tank out very quickly, but if it's important for him to bask, then I guess the lamp is necessary. I am also going to try and feed him more. I agree.....based on the size of your boys, mine is very small and lanky and looks kind of malnurished. One thing I also notice in Monty is that he is too small for his skin. He has alot of wrinkles especially around his neck and mid section. I know he's hydrated because he's had huge pees and lots of urate chunks coming out. As well, he drinks almost every second to third day from his water bowl(which I know is more than usual). I know that he is thirsty alot because of the high temps and lack of humidity, and I will change this a.s.a.p. for him based on your advice and info. I just think I am going to have trouble locating a good thermostat in my city. I hope they sell them at a hardware store or something. If I order off the internet, it will cost me much more and I will have to wait a while for it. Maybe ebay would be a good place to look as well. I have gotten things off of there before. I will go to Petland and see what supplies I can get there, and then off to the garden place (which is really good up here) to see what kind of substrate I can get. Ok,............whew! I hope I can manage all this. I'll let you know how things go tonight. Best Regards.....

 

[6y0ballpython]

Oh, by the way, Monty only weighs 500g. I had him weighed when he had pneumonia about two months ago. From this info based on how much yours weighs, he is VERY underweight for his age and length. I'll fatten him up once I can get him environment proper, he'll digest better too......he poops every 6 weeks.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

If he has a lot of wrinkles, then you're right about him being underweight. Especially at 500g for a 6-year-old male. It may also mean he's dehydrated, which could very well be possible with the high cage temps and low ambient humidity. With a bit of proper feeding and an adjustment to temps and humidity, he should do just fine. It may take time for him to rebound but in the end I think he'll be OK...you're really conscious of him and dedicated to making sure everything's correct. That's awesome.

If you use two UTH's, he won't have a cool spot because the entire cage floor will be warm. I would stick with one UTH and the heat lamp on one side, regulated by a thermostat. That will give him a proper gradient to thermoregulate. The lamp does dry out the cage more, but if you switch to coconut husk, cypress, or another substrate that holds moisture it should be just fine.

Good luck with your little guy, he's really pretty!

Harold, I think you're right. Shavings are shredded bits of pine so the exposure area of the oils and vapors is greather than chunks of mulch would have. That's why it's even bad to use with rats...I smelled that stuff up close once and I feel bad for any animal that has to live in it and breathe that stuff 24-7.

 

[6y0ballpython]

thanks Jen, you are really smart. I know my little guy isn't doing as well as he could be. I don't think that the people who owned him really did a lot of research about how to help him thrive. They just took the petstore's advice that they purchased him from in Calgary, Alberta, and bought a small book that had some advice in it as well. Other than that, they didn't do much else to learn about him. I had a lot of questions for them when we picked him up, and they couldn't even answer half of them. Not the snake people that they made themselves out to be. They were right in selling him. Up until about 7 months ago, I wouldn't go near a snake........honestly, I was petrified of them. Then, my dad found this little garter snake behind our shop on the farm, we put him in a bucket, and I got the guts up to touch him because my 7 year old son wouldn't touch him unless I did. Well, I knew that garter snakes were harmless and ever since we had him (we gave him to my brother right before we got Monty) I've grown to love snakes. I would be very heart broken if Monty doesn't get the help he needs. Anyways, I'll end now and get back to everyone once I have the setup.......I'll take pics and you can analyze from there for me. Thanks a bunch........Cher

 

[6y0ballpython]

We found Martha at Petland.....

Well, I never thought I would buy another so soon, but my love for snakes is growing and when I seen Martha, I knew I had to have her. After having my husband drive all the way down to Petland to see her, he showed just as much enthusiasm as I thought he would over her. She was in her new home less than an hour later. She is absolutely gorgeous. She measures 56 inches long (about 4.5 feet) and 8 inches (22cm) around at her biggest point. She is very gentle and docile. The people at Petland said that she has been quite strikey and nervous around everyone, but when they handed her to me, she sat in my arms and around my neck like she was at home with me. They were impressed because she did the same thing for my husband when he held her for the first time. I think that they know when you are nervous and when you aren't. She has tolerated a lot of handling tonight, as we had to get her home set up. I just went out and bought a long rubbermaid container with lid, covered the bottom in moistened coconut bark. A heating pad underneath the container on one end, a water bowl on the other end, and she's happy. We have to punch some holes in the top for air flow, but it's nice and moist, and 86 degrees. Monty is happy as well tonight. He scarfed down 2 adult mice in a row. He is happy in his stable environment, which by the way, we're happy to report is something we acheived. Here are some pics of Martha.