Red Belly Texas Indigos?

[thesnakeman]

B.W.,
Jeez, isn't that enough to read? if you insist,...

 

[thesnakeman]

O.K., BEEDUB here's the whole thing. Don't you have cages to clean or something?
Tony:



You are not the first Indigo enthusiast to question the red that you will see on my texas Indigos. I have observed in the wild and/or collected all but a few species of drymarchon. All of my animals can be traced by me back to their original wild caught parents with very specific locality data that I will not share. I am the world’s largest breeder of drymarchon. This year was a bad year and I only had sixty-two babies, normally, I am near, if not over, a hundred.



I purposely do not buy from other breeders because of the type of ignorance you are displaying. Most, so called indigo nuts have no idea what the hell they are looking at or talking about. I can easily see a bunch of indigo nuts sitting around in some chat room cooking up stupid ideas like the release of eastern indigos into texas indigo habitat or people crossing easterns into to texas to get red on a texas indigo.



I do not participate in indigo forums or spend much time on the internet because I have animals to take care of. There is nothing that I could learn from you guys and I do not have the time to bring you guys up to speed to hold an intelligent, mutually rewarding, conversation with you. 70% of my female errebennus went to Brian Sharp this year and last. Brian and I have know each other for decades and he knows where to come if he wants a pure blooded animal. No one who knows me questions my integrity. Producing hybrids is a business best left to low life’s. Hybrids belong in ones freezer, not taking up cage space. I do not buy from other indigo “nuts” because most of them could not identify most species of drymarchon. Over 80% of the captive produced indigos offered to me I have identified as hybrids. In my entire drymarchon collection, I only have two animals that I did not produce or catch.



My private collection is larger than the two largest zoo collections in the world put together. Aside from being the world’s largest breeder of drymarchon, I have six world first breedings, and I am the world’s largest breeder of green anacondas, Sulawesi Island Retics, St. Lucian Island Boas, and several species of turtles. etc..



I have over forty years worth of experience with drymarchon. I obtained my first D.c. errebennus in 1969 from Don hamper via Frank Bolin, Director of the Gladys Porter Zoo, Brownsville, Texas. If you talked to Bolin, what he would tell you is the same thing that I am about to tell you. The average, true, texas indigo has far more red on it than any eastern indigo. If I where looking to be an ignorant low life and infuse red into either cooperi or errebennus I would be using errebennus to get more red into my cooperi. Red chinned cooperi have a higher value because most cooperi have a white chin.



I hope that you have gained something from this exchange because I certainly have not.



Captive Born Reptiles

1259 Morse Rd.

Columbus, Ohio 43229

614-267-8025

www.captivebornreptiles.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Carlisle [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 12:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Texas indigos



Janly,

Hey thanks, but please do not take my inquiry as an insult,...not my intention, at all. I'm not one of those people who are jumping to conclusion. I just saw something that looked different, and am trying to find out about it. That's all. Most of us indigo nuts, have never seen or even heard of a red bellied Texan. But if they are real, I'd like to be able to study them in the wild, and perhaps buy some of your babies. Rumor has it that many years ago, some ranchers released a bunch of eastern indigos in south Texas. We would all like to be able to prove, or disprove that, and see the results. Basiclly, the red bellied Texan is somwhat of an anomale, perhaps an inigma, and we would like to figure it out. Any help you could give would be very nice. Pictures, {good ones, up close} locality information, etc. So you know, I'm not trying to bust anyone, or accuse anyone of anything. Just trying to figure it out, with your help. I have a few questions too. You can call me if you want. 573-435-1023 home, 573-578-2325 cell. Perhaps we could get together some time too. Thanks,

T.

----- Original Message -----

From: Captive Born Reptiles

To: 'Tony Carlisle'

Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 7:47 AM

Subject: RE: Texas indigos



Hello Tony Carlisle,



No hybrids what-so-ever. It’s insulting to be accused of cross breeding the indigos.



I’m sure my husband Terry will respond to your message later in more detail when he gets a chance.



Janly Wilkins



Captive Born Reptiles

1259 Morse Rd.

Columbus, Ohio 43229

614-267-8025

www.captivebornreptiles.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Carlisle [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 2:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Texas indigos



Hi,

My name is Tony Carlisle. I breed eastern indigos here in Missouri. I have never seen Texans with red. Some folks are screaming "Hybrid!" I would like to know where your breeders came from. If possible. I would like to trace them back to a location where I could find more wild specimens for documentation, and further study. Are they hybrids? If not, then let's go find some more, document the location via gps, and photograph each one for further study. Perhaps we could get DNA samples as well for comparison to other erebenus specimens, and couperi. There are a few people who would like to know all the details about red bellied Texans. This could be significant to the study of these two species. Or it could be a result of the alleged releases of couperi in south Texas, in years past. Anyway, there are a few folks who would really like to know! Do you have any good close up pics, head shots? Sorry to bug you, and thanks,

T.
And then I e-mailed another long one, and invited the guy to my house, and offered to buy him a beer and take him fishin. No kidding, but that one is in the deleted folder, since he has refused to respond to it. I can go dig that out too if you really don't believe me yet, and you don't have any cages to clean.
T.

 

[BWSmith]

lol, of course I have cages to clean. I just got an adult Dry. She decided to remind me the joys of Drymarchon by taking a huge crap, let me change the substrate, and take a bigger crap again in a hour lol

But I like to know the whole story behind any situation. I think that posting the whole correspondence solidified my former impression that I will not conduct business with them. I thought you were very cordial and unoffensive in your correspondence and the courtesy was not repayed. My feeling is that no breeder or keeper is beyond questioning and should accept that as an opportunity to convey information and encourage the sharing of information. While my primary expertise lies in venomous species, I have noticed similarities between the passion and tight community of the venomous community and the Drymarchon community. If this individual truly were the "world’s largest breeder of Drymarchon", then I would think that more individuals in the community other than a select few would not only be familiar with him, but would endorse and defend him. Moreover, if all of his lines "can be traced by me back to their original wild caught parents with very specific locality data that I will not share" then I would venture to say that he is either lying or illegally collected the animals. Locale specific lines would do nothing but increase the value of his animals and there is no reason not to share it unless it would result in legal ramifications. Those two reasons alone are enough to dissuade me from purchasing animals from him.

And while, by his own humble admission, he may be famous for Drymarchon and other "firsts", my experience has taught me that those that are forced to promote themselves to such an extent often do so because there are precious few others willing to do it for them or documentation to back up such a claim. Furthermore, the reluctance to provide photographs is a major red flag to most people. I simply asked for a headshot so that I may have DNR verify so as not to cause problems and received no response after a prompt response regarding acquiring one. This reluctance implies that there is something to hide, whether there is or not is yet undetermined through lack of evidence. There are very few people that I would get an animal sight unseen. And I certainly would not get one from someone I am unfamiliar with. So there are two more red flags for me.

Finally, the manner in which her replied to your inquiries would be categorized as unprofessional at best. I would rather wait to get the desired species from someone else than purchase from someone who treats inquiries in such a manner. I think that the inquiry as to possible couperi (or cooperi ) blood is a valid question given the species' status in the United States and the states in which it is regulated. To reply in such a manner is unprofessional and unacceptable in my opinion. I would suggest you post that entire correspondence in the BOI thread so that others may find it as informative as I have.

As a final note, it has been made known that he breeds these animals off-site from his two shops. However, I find that the state of one's business often reflects the state of other aspects of one's life. If the stores are as deplorable as they are portrayed, then I would logically expect a personal breeding colony to reflect the same poor standards. As noone has defended the shops, all we have to go on is the commentary that we have available, which is unflattering to the owner.

I think I will wait and find erebennus from another source.

 

[Rivets55]

I agree

BW,

I think I will wait and find erebennus from another source.

Excellent advice. There is currently an open thread on the BOI, which I started, regarding CBR and Mr. Wilkins. Particularly disturbing is a post on the BOI which shows a boa alledgedly purchased from CBR, which looks to be emaciated and have an un-sloughed shed.

I have had the same luck with obtaining pics. When I asked for them, I was referred to their album on KS. The pics there are the same as on their website. None are of currently available animals and all appear to be at least a year old.

I think I will spend my money some else place. Anybody got a cup of Drymarchon they can spare? (J/K)

Cheers,

John D

 

[BWSmith]

I do want to reiterate that he may, in fact, be a great breeder. But we have to draw conclusions based on the information at hand.

 

[BWSmith]

Upon further research, almost everything I can find on him relates to him being arrested for PIT tag violations on native herps. But i did find a couple that outline his efforts to protect the rights of exotic animal owners. I will certainly give him kudos for that and more people need to be proactive in fighting restrictive legislation.

I do find it odd that multiple searches only yielded one result relating him to Drymarchon, and that is the BOI.

 

[epidemic]

Optimistic, for now.

I have remained relatively quiet on this topic, as I do not take questioning anyone’s reputation lightly and I will refrain from saying anything negative or positive until such time I have all or as many of the facts available as possible. Having said this, I will let all of you know that I have been gathering information from a variety of indisputably reputable sources and will be piecing all of it together. Once I have everything, I will be sharing such and making my opinion known, but I must refrain from such, until such time I have all of the information there is to gather.
In the meantime, I ask that everyone maintain a grain of optimism, as crow can be difficult to swallow.. ;0)

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[BWSmith]

As I stated, for the time being we are forced to draw conclusions based on the information available. At this time, it is not flattering. But I base opinions on more than accomplishments, the character of the person plays a major role. Thus far, I am very put off by his manner and would be unlikely to purchase from him if other animals are available.

 

[epidemic]

animals vs. character

It is not the breeder's character in question here, but rather the taxonomy of the Drymarchon involved, as a character debate would be best served in the BOI and not the Dry forum.
Also, I firmly believe one is innocent until proven guilty and while Terry's remarks were unprofessional, his spelling weak and he utilizes expired taxonomy systematics, I am working to acquire empirical data which will discern the exact taxonomy of the specimens in question. While my personal opinion is not very positive at this time, I will still give Terry the benefit of the doubt, until such time I have all of the information in place. Please note, I have excellent resources and have utilized such, just awaiting replies and evidence...

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[BWSmith]

Has anyone been to, or done business with, Captive Born Reptiles in Columbus, Ohio (Terry Wilkins). They are advertising hatchling (06) redbelly Texas Indigos for $750.00. Does anyone have info on store upkeep, animal health, business practises, etc.

I would be especially interested to hear from anyone who has seen and/or purchased a Texas Indigo from them.

Thank You,

John D.

Well, it did not start off as taxonomy

 

[thesnakeman]

D.O.R. red bellied Texas indigo

Jeff sent me this pic from a private source who lives in Texas, and spends a good amout of time in the field. I will let Jeff verify the source if he wants. But this picture, I think, does demonstrate that there are Texas indigos in the wild with red on the belly. You just have to look closely, and ignor the red parts that are from injury. But if you do, you can see the bright redish orange of the belly scales on the front end of the body, just like the pics posted of Terry's captive red bellied Texas indigo. So in my opinion,..they do exist in the wild. How they got there?,... are they hybrids caused by wild release of couperi?,... and is this guy taking them from the wild?,... are just some of the questions in my mind.
T.

 

[snotex]

Texas reds..

I don't know this guy, but I will weigh in that the indigos with the most red areTexas Indy's period..I'm old enough to have legally collected many specimens in the 60's and early 70's..Most have very red chins and bellies sometime almost down to the vent..I had one a few years ago, that was so red Dean A initially thought he was an Eastern until I told him it wasn't..
I'm not sure what set the guy off on Tony, but I thought that was very uncalled for..
Also, I thought I knew of most of the breeders of Dry's and I've never heard of this guy who says he usually produces over 100 babies a year!!! Dr G

 

[BWSmith]

Very interesting. Nice to hear from someone with first hand experience regarding red texans. Are they locale specific? All that I have seen locale specific are from the southern range and have no red. Any good photos floating around that you should share as most of us have not seen them? I would be very interested in some nice red bloodlines of pure erebennus that could be used for educational purposes in GA without the impossible permits. But if they look that much like couperi, they must be easily distinguished as erebennus by scalation.

 

[snotex]

Texas Indy's

Sorry, I'm on the road and don't have access to my pics, but as I mentioned I had one a few years ago that fooled Dean A..I think he went to Gerald Germany in '03..
As far as locality, I caught most of them around Laredo, but also as far south as Harlingen..That was 30+ yrs ago! I'm too old to remember where the ones with the most red came from!! But they do exist..Jeff S has one of mine right now and he is also very red, and 9' long! The difference is really obvious most of the time because of the speckling on the sides most TXN's have..
Re: the rumor of Easterns being let loose in S TX..I don't believe it..There are way too many TXN's in the wild to worry about bringing in any Easterns..So I doubt there any wild crossbreeds..Remember there are HUGE ranches in S TX that will never be broken up(think King & Kennedy Ranches+ more)..The TX Indy is in no way endangered or threatened..I'm not really sure why they are even protected by law..I think it was a reflex action after the Eastern went "on the list"
Dr G

 

[thesnakeman]

Let's go look, see this winter, during mating.

 

[thesnakeman]

Oh, I almost forgot,...It's good to see you over here on the dark side Carl!

 

[BWSmith]

Very nice. Gerald lives here in town. I have talked to him about photographing some of his collection here soon so hopefully I can get some good shots.

 

[thesnakeman]

Gerald Germany,...
Now there's a guy with a ton of knowledge! I'd like to see him in here! I have not spoken to Gerald in quite some time. How's he doing? The phone calls are too expensive, and his e-mail just won't let me through. Please give Gerald my regards, and extend an invitation to visit here. I believe he could make a significant contribution of wisdom!
T.

 

[epidemic]

Wow!!

All this over one red bellied, black snake! ;0)

I'm surprised none of you recall Terry offering the red D. m erebennus last year, as I made a few post regarding the amount of red the snake within the photo harbors. As I recall, that's the same photo Terry posted to his add last year as well. However, he did post some baby photos and I believe he sent some photos to the "Wall" as well, but all were anterior shots.
On a good note, I will be receiving photos of some of Terry's '05 D. m erebennus in the near future and will let you know what I find and, provided the owner gives me permission, I will post the photos as well.
Dr. G told me of the red D. m erebennus he found around Laredo, back in the day, and such carries a great deal of weight for me, even though I have found six specimens in and around Laredo, 2 DOR and 4 live, none of which harbored enough red coloration worth mentioning.
As for D. couperi being released in Texas; I was given this information personally by John Cherry, a lifelong Texas resident, environmentalist and herpetoculturist. Personally, I believe any information coming from John carries a bit of weight as well and I do not find it too difficult to believe, as I know a few proprietors of large ranches in South Texas, having a cousin among such, and it has been said a few were vacationing in So. Florida, back in the day, and found someone selling them at a roadside gas station / deli / snake show sort of place, anyone who traveled through the South back in the day can remember such places too, as I recall seeing D. couperi for sell within such, in Florida, for $10.00 per foot and H. s suspectum sold at such places for $20.00 each in AZ! Anyhow, it is believed the ranchers thought they were interesting snakes, looking much like their own “blue gophers” and bought the guy out, along with any others they found along the way home, only to set them free upon their property once they arrived home. I do not find this so difficult to believe, as I know Texas ranchers are not the type to do anything in a “small” way and such are quite well known for rather eccentric and spur of the moment acquisitions. While I do not know for sure, there is certainly the possibility of such having occurred. However, if such has anything to do with the red coloration found among some populations of D. m erebennus ? Who’s to say it is or it isn’t?
However, I will point out, many populations of “like” Drymarchon spp. are highly variable from one locale to another and instances of high red – no red coloration can be found in D. couperi and D. m rubidus as well, but I don’t think anyone released D. couperi along the western coast of Mexico, in the state of Jalisco, where most of the red D. m rubidus appear to originate from…

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[Rivets55]

Wow is Right!

I never thought my inquiry would develop so much interest and become so fascinating! I'm learning a lot from this re Texas Indigos and Drymarchon in general. I'm checking my email constantly to check-out the latest posts.

Jeff, is that a D. m rubidus in the pic? It sure is handsome.

Tony, that DOR shot is literally crushing. What a shame.

The more I learn, the more I want one!

Thanks everyone!

John DeMelas
Oak Ridge, TN