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Regarding shipping venomous

D

Douglas Taylor

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Does anyone know of any Master List of species considered venomous by USF&W?

I have some rear fanged animals that I will need to ship soon. Although I consider them harmless, I'd like to know that I have the legal leeway to ship them as such.

I couldn't find any info on the web but I figured someone here might know of such a list.

Doug T
 
Hey,

As well as fish and game you will have to figure out what the shipping company, and iata's regs are too.

The simplist way is to crate them and ship them delta dash, then no one can bitch anywhere. I find the $30 extra bucks worth it for staying out of the grey area.

Thanks
ben
 
bcherps said:
Hey,

As well as fish and game you will have to figure out what the shipping company, and iata's regs are too.

The simplist way is to crate them and ship them delta dash, then no one can bitch anywhere. I find the $30 extra bucks worth it for staying out of the grey area.

Thanks
ben
Click to expand...

IATA? Don't know what that is.
Shipping Company... Got it.


It's not just the $30. That's easy. The other factors are that Delta has a poor performance track record for me, has longer transport times, and not everyone lives close to an airport. A 3 hour drive each way isn't unheard of to an airport for many folks in this country.

So being 1-completely legal 2-completely safe, and 3-convenient are the goals in that order.

So finding what The Man says is HOT is important to know.
 
IATA is the group that makes shipping regs on items for the government. As far as longer transport times delta dash is the only one I know of that is same day. Some people ship priority first to save 20 bucks but that is not guaranteed the same day.

To find out your way just call the enforcement division of the particular state, then you would have to call the shipper.

Thanks
ben
 
bcherps said:
IATA is the group that makes shipping regs on items for the government. As far as longer transport times delta dash is the only one I know of that is same day. Some people ship priority first to save 20 bucks but that is not guaranteed the same day.

To find out your way just call the enforcement division of the particular state, then you would have to call the shipper.

Thanks
ben
Click to expand...

I appreciate to tip and I'll look into IATA to see if they have better definitions.

I'm also envious of Delta's performance for you. I've been shipping and receiving reptiles quite a while and I've easily sent and received several hundred animals. It has proven entirely within the realm of normal for me to have to go to the airport multiple times because my animals ended up in the wrong city. I've gone to the airport and been told that they don't know where my animals are.

After 911 Delta became problematic. After they filed for bankruptcy, they dumped the experienced union workers and began contracting out their freight work to the lowest bidders and are now CHRONICALLY understaffed at the freight desks.

It's not a cost issue. I'd pay double if they shipped right 100% of the time in stead of paying what I would pay now to get it right 50% of the time.

I've heard from other breeders that their local FedEx office is messed up and that Delta is the reliable transport. I'm sure that's the case in places. However I've gotten almost 100% delivery reliability from FedEx from here. The few times they've been a few minutes late, I appeal it and get my customers shipping costs back (try that with Delta).

I could go on, but it comes down to this. I am only willing to ship Delta if I am legally bound to. I'm looking for resources to find out IF I am legally bound to.

Thanks,
Doug T
 
Just wondering - based on your phrasing...have you shipped Delta Dash, as was recommended above, or Delta freight/cargo. Unless you ship Dash (and maybe priority first - I'm not certain, as I have never used that service) you don't get a guaranteed delivery time. When using Delta's "normal" shipping (air cargo/freight), I have encountered the same problems you descibed - delays, wasted trips, misrouted packages, etc...but with Dash, you are pretty much saying it will be on flight XXXX, arriving at Y oclock
 
I agree with Harold...

I have been shipping venomous snakes with Delta Dash for 20 years. Last year they screwed up twice but took care of the problem. That was a first for my shipping issues with Delta. I prefer Delta Dash.
 
Tim, Harold and Ben... and everyone else whose had good luck using Delta. I am envious.

I've used both forms of transport by Delta. It's amazing we're talking about the same company. Pre-911, I actually had Delta counter personel hand carry the critters to the plane. Since then, it's been consistantly bad, regardless of the level I've paid for. I must say that I've received more animals via Delta over the years than shipped.

But I'm sorry things have been diverted. So far the only potential source for the actual regulations that I've found is the IATA's book... which can be purchased for $130 or something like that. Whether it lists "what" is venomous is uncertain.

Perhaps I can rephrase the question. Is there an official statement stating that rear-fanged animals are venomous? Ringnecks? Boiga? Hognose (from any continent)? Boiruna/Clelia? Any of the new "venomous" Asian Ratsnakes? FWC's?

Clearly vipers, cobras and other animals that are dangerous are what shipping laws were made for. Are these new species that are becoming quite popular in the pet trade, and most of which are essentially harmless, still considered "venomous"?

Although opinions are interesting to read, what I'm really hoping to see is if anyone has had better luck determining definatively what is and isn't venomous from a legal standpoint... and thus needing a wooden box and airline shipping.

Doug T

I
 
Hey
The IATA book will not give a species list, it will just tell you the packaging needed for venomous. I.e. bag in a box, in a wood crate, market in red or black lettering venomous/reptile do not open with emergency contacts on both ends.

No entity in the world knowledgable or not will be able to give you a venomous list because:

1. The term venom is not a stictly defined word(it the fluid produced a venom, irritating saliva, toxin, poison, etc etc etc), and is that fluid produced by a salivary gland, duvernouys gland, mandibular gland, or some other gland, and is that fluid dispersed through an effective/efficient delivery system or not.
2. Animals are reclassified all the time-taxonomists need job security too!
3. Peoples individual allergic reaction varies, I have a friend that was bit by a garter snake and she had an anaphalic response and swelled to the sholder. I have another friend who was bit by an eyelash and he walked it off with minor swelling and sloughing of his calouses on his hand
4. How good of a lawyer can someone hire to twist the english lanquage into trapezoidal queries so that the judge and jury says "yep sounds good"


In my opinion, if you are going to send a hognose or ringneck through a certified fedex reptile shipper then go ahead. They have irritating saliva, and the structure in the roof of the rear of the mouth is not a fang(or is it connected to any gland by a duct), it is a bony spike to deflate toads, and frogs.

If you are going to send a mangrove snake through the US mail then you might want to have a lawyer on retainer.


It might be easier to answer your question if you tell us what you are shipping, where you want it to go, and who you want to ship it. Then we can say should be no problem, it is a little risky, plan on having the feds all the way up your *ss.

thanks
ben cole
 
bcherps said:
No entity in the world knowledgable or not will be able to give you a venomous list because...

It might be easier to answer your question if you tell us what you are shipping, where you want it to go, and who you want to ship it. Then we can say should be no problem, it is a little risky, plan on having the feds all the way up your *ss.

thanks
ben cole
Click to expand...

You actually did give a darn good answer... Don't expect to find clear answers from authorites.

As for what I'm shipping, I've got a few clutches of Boiruna maculata. In the past I've had some Philodryas baroni. I've told the customers interested in the Boiruna that the snakes will likely need to be shipped via airlines as HOTS unless I can find some documentation or justification stating otherwise.

MuBelly.JPG


This is where practical experience with the species and what may be assumed by "The Man" may differ. Baby Boiruna are the size of ringnecks, and even look pretty much the same as ringnecks. They don't bite in defense and at their current size, probably have neither the apparatus to deliver the venom, nor enough to actually do anything. They are effectively "Harmless". This doesn't mean a thing if The Man wants them shipped as hots.

For most of my hopefull customers, how they are shipped is irrelevant. For a few, it does create some real hassles. Another issue I'm a bit concerned about is setting the bar too low. I don't want to be the guy who makes it so that harmless specimens become "venomous" to authorities because wildlife officials start seeing boxes with "Venomous Reptile" on the side of a box of and start to associate the species with "Venomous". Then it's another species to get churned into the new law Banning Blitz.

I do appreciate all the effort you guys are putting into getting this figured out for me.

Doug T
www.dougtaylorreptiles.com
 
I definately agree with the comment about keeper knowledge vs. non-keeper knowledge, and the association of venomous with the species. I do agree that to the average person the word venomous means you will die withing 5 paces of being bit, when I would easily prefer a bite from one of your two species listed than the neighbors dog.


I would look at the state's laws you are shipping them to. If the guy has to have a permit where he is at then the state may already be polarized to consider the animal dangerous. If it is a state like s.c that nothing is illegal then they would likely be more lenient if something was to happen during shipping.

Are you certified to ship with one of the private companies like fedex or Ups? If you are, then a snake in a box would be a snake in a box, and not too many questions may be asked. If you are not certified specifically for snakes, then a snake in a box becomes a nightmare and then if it was found out to be categorized as rear fanged/mildly venomous/permit needed type animal then you are suddenly in a world of trouble.

Thanks
ben
 
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