Regulating Florida

[lycosa]

Florida Venomous Laws

Being new to this forum and seeing others who are residing in Florida, I wanted to hear others opinions on Florida Venomous Laws. I am originally from Michigan where there were no “official” state laws regarding exotic venomous and have done business with most of the major dealers here before ever moving here. My impression before moving here six years ago was that Florida was THE model for correctly legislating the experience, caging requirements, and overall aptitude required to properly maintain a privately held collection of venomous reptiles.

I’ve seen many posts on many forums advocating self regulation within the trade. I personally feel it will be integral to its survival. For instance, Model Rocketry was under scrutiny until it self-regulated. As a real example, consider diving. Many people died while diving who were untrained and otherwise naïve to the dangers. Self regulation within the hobby kept unnecessary legislation from being passed that might have otherwise banned the hobby altogether. People who were experienced at diving realized that in order to continue to be able to enjoy their hobby, action should be taken before it was mandated and control was lost. Another example of self regulation at work is amateur radio. Although enforced by the FCC, amateur radio is nearly all self-governed. Wouldn’t it be nice to collectively make decisions on our hobby which influenced the government to act on our behalf and in our favor? Does anyone actually believe that using catch phrases like ‘Buyer Beware’ and ‘Consumer Responsibility’ can save the hobby? I don’t.

Now to tie these two seemingly unrelated paragraphs together……

I’ve met a lot of people in Florida that either had their permit or were in the process of getting their permit who should NEVER be allowed to own a venomous reptile. One gentleman that I met was ever so excited about buying a “Black Pak”. Only after commenting on their natural habitat did I learn that he had no idea where “Black Paks’”
naturally occurred. He had no idea whatsoever that “Pak” was short for Pakistan much less the scientific name or what it’s species specific husbandry might be. This certainly leads me to believe he was otherwise unaware or, as Steve Irwin incessantly puts it, complacent about the real dangers and responsibility of owning such an animal. This person was licensed and that’s scary. If any irresponsible or unprepared person ends up with a license, then there are obvious faults in the regulations that govern the hobby. Unfortunately, the last thing any of us need is more government regulation. Here’s the real truth behind Florida’s Venomous Laws as I’ve seen it.

Applicants for venomous permits train under permit holders. Therefore I can give as many hours to anyone I feel like. If my brother wants a 1000 hours, I can vouch for him. It is being done….I have seen it happen and Fish and Wildlife is none the wiser.

It is good business to train people in your store because people will buy from you. I have seen a store in South Florida give away hours for promised purchases…or just because they feel like it. I’m fairly certain that I’m not the only one that has seen this. I am not saying that there aren’t very responsible dealers/trainers who would never condone that behavior. But it happens.

Anyone who moves from another state can fabricate experience and receive the license. The law requires documented proof, but it doesn’t specify what. I know a person who received their license by fabricating his own experience on paper and had three references as well which were all fabricated. He received his license with as much stature as anyone who worked for the hours.

Although I realize there are exceptions, typically transactions for venomous reptiles in Florida are not a careful screening process for experience as I’ve heard others claim. I’m not pointing any fingers….its just my own experience. I’ve personally had a dealer ‘push’ me to buy a black mamba…’cause of the price tag. Another told me Forest Cobras aren’t that bad……my own experience says bull&*#$. When I felt ready for Ophidiophagus……No problem, just give me $500.00 no questions asked. The most I’ve been questioned is…”Do you have a permit so that I may photocopy it for my own records?” I have never heard, “Do you think you have the necessary experience for this animal?”

Some think that the laws are not perfect but at least it’s something. Others think there shouldn’t be regulations at all, only ethical responsibility. However, this thinking will not promote the continuation of our hobby and as I’ve pointed out above, the cost of doing nothing can only result in mandated regulations and the possibility that our hobby will become extinct altogether.

I think that self regulation is the key to our survival inasmuch as self regulation was the key to diving’s’ survival. In my opinion, venomous reptile keepers should be likened to that of a karate dojo. You are belted based on knowledge, experience and safety technique. Only black belts can own Mambas or Tai Pans. Only black belts should own Mambas or Tai Pans. Anyhow, that’s my opinion…..what do you think? If you agree, how could this be put into action? What methods could be used to appropriately gauge an individual’s experience?

 

[gila7150]

I think that FL's venomous laws are far from flawless but they are still better than most. Obviously there are ways to cheat the system but it still prevents someone from making an impulse purchase of a venomous reptile at a herp show or being able to legally collect a venomous snake from the wild without any advance thought at all.
Also, venomous keepers in FL can have their facilities inspected at any time by F&W and can face fines or other penalties if their cages are unlocked or their caging does not meet certain requirements.

I put in a lot of hours with two experienced keepers prior to getting my permit but I still considered myself a novice after getting my permit. It takes some self discipline to realize your limitations once you get the permit and stick to animals that are appropriate for your skill level. A few years later, I still don't consider myself qualified to mess with some of the faster elapids and I try to stick with venomous herps that are more in my "comfort zone".
There are always going to be idiots and I think it's unrealistic to expect F&W to be able to prevent them all from getting permits. A newbie who would go out and buy a taipan is the same kind of guy that would get his motorcycle license and drive his crotch rocket 150mph, doing wheelies without a helmet.

Your "karate belt" system would be ideal but I have no idea how you would enforce something like that unless you were required to take written and practical tests prior to obtaining your permit.

 

[Mustangrde1]

Unfortunately I have seen numerous people get away with less than the law requires for hours and that is the states fault and the trainers fault. The trainer should never falsify a document that is of a legal origin such as the mandated documentation of hours. The state should also use good judgement when the initial inspection is done to guage a person.

Simple knowledge questions from the Officer to the petitioner would be nice like the basics. what species is it? whats its country of origin? do you have a source for AV? what AV does it take? what are its captive requirements? and my favorite what is the caging law?. A good officer could weed out s a few more of the people who really shouldnt have the animal.

Many are under the impression all cages must be locked at all times and that is not the case. In fact so long as they are in a secure escape proof room the cages do not need to be locked. Still they should be but not required under the above exemption.

If a person wants to keep a hot they should atleast have the knowledge of the states laws at very minimum.

It is the best system out there but is flawed. self regulation is the best steps to preserving our hobby. But with the regulations the goverment always wants laws on the books which im all for if written logically based on Biological knowledge and factual scientific fact. NOT the media hype and antianimal rights groups or thier lobbiest.

 

[lycosa]

Regulating Florida...Part II

First of all, thanks for responding to my post. I just wanted debate this a little further. So to get it underway…..

Gila7150:
________________________________________________________________________
“I think that FL's venomous laws are far from flawless but they are still better than most. Obviously there are ways to cheat the system but it still prevents someone from making an impulse purchase of a venomous reptile at a herp show or being able to legally collect a venomous snake from the wild without any advance thought at all.”


Gila7150, I am certainly not debating Florida’s effort to regulate our hobby so that it remains safe for us and the general public. As I’ve pointed out in my original post, Florida has established laws which are ‘generic’ and unfortunately, people have found ways to abuse them. Although I entirely agree with you that Florida has stopped unlicensed people from impulse buying venomous snakes, I am worried about a premeditated buy from a licensed person who, by lack of knowledge or experience, is completely incapable of caring for the animal in a matter which is safe for them and the general public.

Gila7150:

“Also, venomous keepers in FL can have their facilities inspected at any time by F&W and can face fines or other penalties if their cages are unlocked or their caging does not meet certain requirements.”

I understand the above to be absolutely true. However, this has not happened to me. From what I understand, protocols for ‘complete surprise’ inspections are utilized only when the inspector deems necessary for suspected negligence, caging, or welfare violations. As I have never heard this directly from an F & W officer, it is only hearsay. It is congruent with my own experience, however. My own inspections have come with at least several hours notice leaving plenty of time to clean up anything which might have been construed by the inspecting officer as a violation. The above statement is not an admission that I have poor husbandry methods, only an example that others with poor husbandry methods have probably followed.

Gila7150:
“There are always going to be idiots and I think it's unrealistic to expect F&W to be able to prevent them all from getting permits. A newbie who would go out and buy a taipan is the same kind of guy that would get his motorcycle license and drive his crotch rocket 150mph, doing wheelies without a helmet.”

I agree…..it IS unrealistic to expect F & W to able to prevent all idiots from getting permits. That is why I advocate self-regulation. We’ve paid $95.00 extra for our permits so that F & W could have more inspecting officers, because, as I was told by my inspecting officer, the existing officers were being spread ‘too thin’.
My inspecting officer told me that her primary responsibility was that of a wildlife detective not an inspecting officer. I was also able to discern from our conversation that she was not familiar with the proper husbandry of reptiles and was mostly concerned with the specified caging requirements. Until these new inspectors are trained properly we should expect that even more unqualified people will continue to receive their permits. And by ‘unqualified’, I do not mean that they haven’t complied with necessary requirements under Florida Law, I mean that because of an inspector’s lack of knowledge we can expect that they may not be aware of incorrect species specific husbandry or lack of competent safety standards a prospective permitee could very well be in violation of.

As far as your motorcycle analogy goes……LOL….Very good.

Gila7150:
“Your "karate belt" system would be ideal but I have no idea how you would enforce something like that unless you were required to take written and practical tests prior to obtaining your permit.”

Thank You……and…Excellent idea! Practical tests would be an important and necessary step.

Mustangrde1:
“Unfortunately I have seen numerous people get away with less than the law requires for hours and that is the states fault and the trainers fault. The trainer should never falsify a document that is of a legal origin such as the mandated documentation of hours. The state should also use good judgment when the initial inspection is done to gauge a person.”

You’re correct. As you pointed out, it is being done and they shouldn’t do it. As far as the state using good judgment, I don’t feel very comfortable about this. Inexperienced or unknowledgeable inspection officers cannot be expected to gauge husbandry. Even a routine inspection for a granted permit holder would only yield the most obvious welfare or negligence violations to an unknowledgeable inspector. It is easy enough to lie about a personal commitment to safety and so only a knowledgeable officer could tell if the prospective permitee has the proper tools and knowledge to act safely.

Mustangrde1:
_______________________________________________________________________
“Many are under the impression all cages must be locked at all times and that is not the case. In fact so long as they are in a secure escape proof room the cages do not need to be locked. Still they should be but not required under the above exemption.”

This is where I disagree. Since Florida law F.A.C. 68A-25.006 2-C
stipulates that the room be “locked to prevent unauthorized intrusion, is inaccessible to unauthorized personnel, is constructed and maintained as to be escape-proof, and, for commercial facilities, has been inspected and approved as conforming to these rules by FWC personnel prior to use.” I think that it is unreasonable for a responsible dealer to lock 200 cages if the above requirements are met. That’s just my personal opinion.

Mustangrde1:
___________________________________________________________________
“If a person wants to keep a hot they should at least have the knowledge of the states laws at very minimum.

It is the best system out there but is flawed. self regulation is the best steps to preserving our hobby. But with the regulations the government always wants laws on the books which im all for if written logically based on Biological knowledge and factual scientific fact. NOT the media hype and antianimal rights groups or thier lobbiest.”

I agree with some comments……

As responsible keepers, we should not be afraid of reasonable government regulations. Considering the potential harm to ourselves or others it is reasonable that regulations exist which promote safety and animal welfare. Unfortunately, severe machismo is associated with our hobby. This stems not from responsible keepers, but from egoists who own deadly snakes for “cool” value. Because of this association you can certainly rely on the media to report snakebites differently for hobbyists versus zookeepers. And we can also expect that new legislation will continue to be passed which limits or stops the keeping of venomous reptiles for hobbyists. The laws will unfortunately stem from media hype and be endorsed and adored by animal rights groups.

As far as basing laws on biological fact, that deserves a post of its own. Toxicology research is making the LD50 ranking more or less subjective. Bite site, venom yield and delivery, and even species locality influence envenomation. Besides, basing laws on these facts may have limiting implications. I would be completely against laws being based on what is deemed appropriate by some politician. I just think there is too much discretion available there to be used appropriately.

Here’s a brief outline of what I think we should do……………..

1) Organize a committee of experienced peers to instate policies which benefit the future of our hobby.

2) Have said committee enact testing requirements suited to ensure qualifications for responsible keeping at applicants skill level and in accordance with existing F & W law.

3) As in Amateur Radio, the committee should appoint volunteer exam coordinators to carry out testing requirements as well as define the criteria necessary for becoming a volunteer exam coordinator.

4) The committee should work with F & W officials to enforce the newly established self regulated guidelines.

5) A treasury should be held to enable an antivenin insurance policy. A voluntary policy which could ensure antivenin availability for species kept. This would not only significantly reduce hospital costs, but more importantly save your life in the event that Venom One/Others were depleted.

6) Many other good things……Education, Programs for restocking depleted wild populations, Conservation, Safety Protocols, and maybe….just maybe…Respect!

So what do you think?????

 

[Mustangrde1]

4) The committee should work with F & W officials to enforce the newly established self regulated guidelines.

This is a big problem unless its a law Fish and Game have no way to legally enforce it! By Making it a Law opens a can of worms I do not think any of us want. I certainly do not want to see a committee that may have its own agenda trying to regulate me. Seen it with to many special intrest groups and it always backfires. The intention is great but the outcome could be devestating.

A treasury should be held to enable an antivenin insurance policy. A voluntary policy which could ensure antivenin availability for species kept. This would not only significantly reduce hospital costs, but more importantly save your life in the event that Venom One/Others were depleted.

Great Idea. This is something that probably is very easy to do with the help of such Facilities as Miami Antivenom Bank and venom labs. If these facilities would allow for the keepers to help buy the AV they would need for the species they keep and it could be legally stored at those facilities incase of a bite.

 

[lycosa]

Mustangrde1…you are completely right. Here is my dilemma. When considering ways to self regulate the hobby it became obvious to me that some would be entirely against it. I would really like to hear those arguments, but haven’t so far. F & W could only enforce laws, not personal hobbyist’s guidelines and because of this only those against it would continue to do business in the traditional manner. This would push those unprepared to undergo the practical experience testing, etc, to go to those dealers who were also not practicing business under self regulated guidelines. This would actually hurt sales within our community for those who had personally committed to self regulation. At that point, self regulation would become unacceptable.

The point I wanted to make is….within these other hobbies that I pointed out in my original post, self regulation has guided legislation. It is possible to self regulate the hobby so that we are responsibly in control. I think that F & W should be involved in the process inasmuch as the FCC continues to be involved with amateur radio. As a guiding hand to ensure that our principles and standards meet or exceed their own.

As my outline was very brief, my intention is not a totalitarian committee with reserved right to propose regulations at will. My intention was to establish a committee with enough experience to adequately draft a constitution which could then be voted on democratically. Any new regulations and proposals would then be voted on by members of the group and decided accordingly.

Done carefully, it would work.

 

[Mustangrde1]

Hypothetically speaking, you would need to set up such a committee with persons who have very good husbandry practices. This in itself is a difficult task not because there is no one but who is to say whom has the best husbandry?

Those people would help to write laws based on the animals captive requirements which Florida already has under section F. A. C. 68A-6.004 not to mention any United States Fish and Wildlife laws and Aphis Animal welfare laws. So they would have to meet or exceed those laws already on the books.

Let us not forget in all this that special interest groups always seem to find out about new laws and may attach their own little rider on the new laws that could potentially ban the keeping of what is construed as harmful or lethal animals to future applicants or current keepers.

Of course Veterinary doctors would be consulted someplace in this and they could site many reasons to try and outlaw reptile keeping {Ebola virus, Salmonella, herpes} who knows what they may say.

Putting all the potential disasters aside, self regulation is not the key enforcement of the current laws would be a much more prudent action! How many pet shops have you walked in to and seen malnourished animals or infested with mites or tick? Better trained officer that actually make the inspections and enforce the current laws would go much further.

As to Hot Keepers rules. Require that all hours be logged on time cards and certified at the start of training by an Officer and that random checks on the time cards be done. That will help stop the forging of hours. Next actually have them do several spot checks a year to insure that at least the cages are in good condition. Outside of that accidents can happen and the AV idea is great.

 

[lycosa]

Okay…round 4

The proposed committee should be made up of experienced members of our community. Those that have had experience with many species and who are generally respected members as well. These people would only draft initial guidelines based on their own experience. Input from the general venomous community would and should be included as well. The committee would not be a governing body…just an acting body of volunteers to coordinate the efforts and concerns of the venomous keeping community.

As you pointed out, laws can only be enforced, not self regulated guidelines. I explained the dilemma in my last post only to raise the question; If not by law, how could we regulate the hobby so that everyone would be a part of it, is agreeable to the majority, and yet still holds to the original mission? I would personally be agreeable if F & W were able to enforce guidelines that, again, were on our behalf and in our collective favor. If self regulation is to be a reality, some incentive or enforcement would have to usher it in. I certainly have made a mistake in this post if I have given the impression that I am for more government regulation. As I stated before, I am not objectionable, given the nature of our hobby, that reasonable laws exist which promote safety and animal welfare. But the overall initiative is to promote safety and animal welfare within our own community and by our own community. Exceptional standards are required for the longevity of this hobby. I would rather see practices and standards be required from, and proven in, our own community than be mandated from fearful and ignorant politicians. It is important to me, anyways, that skill level and personal commitment to safety be identifiable to dealers when its most critical…..the point of sale.

My ideas are not radical. Practical examinations, qualifications for mentoring, safety protocols, and a system which allows people to buy venomous reptiles which are conducive to their own experience and abilities would help to ensure professionalism and most certainly increase respect and longevity for this hobby.

As far as special interest groups and veterinary consult limiting our ability to keep venomous reptiles, isn’t that what is happening now? Self regulation is a proactive measure for education and safety against these things.

Since you like the AV idea, do you think it would be worth starting a new thread to try to get others onboard to get it started?

 

[Mustangrde1]

As provided by Florida Administrative Code 68A-25.002 (15), after July 1, 1990, any person or entity not currently permitted to possess or exhibit venomous reptile species must qualify for a permit by meeting the following criteria:
1) Demonstrate no less than one year of substantial, practical experience (to consist of no less than 1000 hours) in the care, feeding, handling, and husbandry of the species for which the permit is sought, or other species within the same biological order, which are substantially similar in size, characteristics, care and nutritional requirements to the species for which the permit is sought.

Reptile and Amphibian Regulations August 9, 2002 Page 2 For the purposes of demonstrating compliance applicants shall submit documentation of such experience, including:

a description of the experience acquired, the dates the experience was obtained, and the specific location(s)where acquired, and references of no less than two individuals having personal knowledge of your stated experience. Personal reference letters do not need to be authored by venomous reptile permittees. Additional documentation may include records of prior permits for the keeping of venomous reptiles, employment records, or any other competent documentation of the requisite experience.

2) Documented educational experience in zoology or other relevant biological sciences obtained at the college or technical school or above may substitute for up to six months or 500 hours of the required experience.

(3) Shall not have been convicted of a violation of venomous reptile regulations for three years prior to application for such permit.

4) Must be at least 18 years old at the time of application.

If F&W was to actually do spot checks and verify on random checks the persons hours during training we could effectively stop cheating on hours and ensure proper training under our current laws. I see NO need to add more laws or regulation to what is already an effective law, though it needs to be enforced and monitored better.

Standard Caging Requirements for Non-Venomous Reptiles:1) Snakes and glass lizards: In addition to requirements for this section, each enclosure shall be

Reptile and Amphibian RegulationsAugust 9, 2002 Page 4 provided with an environment or devices that allow for temperature regulation necessary to insure the well being of the species. The environment or devices shall be non-injurious, and may include, but not limited to hot rocks, artificial lights, natural sunlight and heat strips. Each enclosure shall be provided with a noninjurious substrate such as newspaper, processed wood shavings, rocks, sand, or indoor-outdoor carpet. Such substrate shall be disposed of or sanitized at intervals sufficient to insure the health of the animal(s). Enclosure size for all snakes and glass lizards shall be based upon the length of the longest specimen in the enclosure. For up to two specimens, a cage or enclosure having a perimeter equal to the length of the longest specimen, the width of the cage shall not be less than 20 percent of the length of the longest specimen. The width of the enclosure shall not be required to exceed 3 feet. For each additional specimen, increase perimeter by 10 percent.

Reptile and Amphibian RegulationsAugust 9, 2002 Page 6 F.A.C. 68A-25.006: Exhibiting and Caging Poisonous or Venomous Reptiles1) Any person who keeps, possesses, or exhibits poisonous or venomous reptiles shall also comply with Florida Statutes 372.86-91.

2) Poisonous reptiles shall be kept enclosed in cages, cases, pits or enclosures of the following specifications:
(a) Cages may be constructed of a variety of materials including: plate glass of at least one-quarter inch thickness, break resistant plastic of similar strength, concrete reinforced with wire, sheet metal, molded fiberglass, plywood or interlocking lumber that has been treated to be impervious to moisture and is not less than one-half inch in thickness, or other materials which provide equivalent stability and security against escape and unauthorized intrusion. Cages and doors shall be sealed. The doors of each cage shall be securely locked to prevent unauthorized intrusion.
(b) A room may contain poisonous reptiles in cages that are not locked provided that such a room is locked to prevent unauthorized intrusion, is inaccessible to unauthorized personnel, is constructed and maintained as to be escape-proof, and, for commercial facilities, has been inspected and approved as conforming to these rules by FWC personnel prior to use.

(c) Outdoor open-topped enclosures:
1) For venomous reptile species native to the United States, the floors of outdoor cages shall be of concrete or masonry construction at least two inches in thickness. Sides shall be of similar construction, at least eight inches in thickness, or strength equivalent, with a minimum height of four feet above the floor of the enclosure. Outdoor enclosures need not have concrete or masonry flooring if the enclosure meets the following additional specifications:
(a) The enclosure shall have concrete or masonry walls, at least eight inches in thickness, or strength equivalent.
(b) The enclosure shall have footers made of concrete, or strength equivalent, extending not less than three feet below the grade level, outside the perimeter.
(c) The corners of the enclosure shall be designed or guarded to prevent the escape of reptiles by climbing.
(d) All landscaping of the enclosure shall be arranged to unsure that vegetation or other structures do not allow for the escape of reptiles.
2) Entrance doors shall be kept securely locked on all outdoor enclosures to prevent escape and unauthorized intrusion and the enclosure shall be equipped with barriers to prevent visitors from falling into enclosures that are constructed below ground level.
3) For venomous reptile species not native to the United States, all outdoor enclosures shall be topped with close-meshed wire or an equivalent barrier to provide additional security.

Again this needs more enforcement but with the requirements for cage size and security of the room or cage we do not need more restrictive regulations placed on us when we have current laws already. Though again they need to be enforced and followed up on.

The biggest problem I see in Florida is not the laws; it is the actual enforcement of the laws based most likely on budget problems within the state. If officers could actually follow up on them we would see better keepers and better standards of care which the current laws provide for. Many hot keepers exceed the current laws anyway. I honestly can’t say the last time I walked in to a hot keeper’s hot room and not seen it neat and clean and the animal is incredible shape. Though I am sure there is a few those would be the ones who would not care even if a committee tried to make or have the laws enforced.

If you think about the actual monetary value that a potential keeper places in to getting that first hot following all the laws and taking no short cuts its about $11,000 before they even get the first hot. Those people are not going to take short cuts or keep animals in bad unhealthy conditions.

How do we help fight laws based on hype and data twisted to suit a special interest group is simple yet one that I get annoyed with frequently. All the herp societies in the state need to join together and actually pay for an attorney and our own lobbyist to combat the attorneys and lobbyist from special interest groups. You have to fight fire with fire in many cases.

Unfortunately all to often in the reptile community you see factions within it the gecko keepers only care about geckos, the boide keepers only care about boides etc. When in fact it should be all keepers pulling together for the entire hobby and not ignoring one group because they are not interested in that species.

I liken it to gun control. If the factions there never got together we wouldn’t be able to own guns. By faction I mean pistol users, rifle users, hunters, sports shooting, etc. Had they not seen the threat and banned together to stop special interest and attorneys for them and the lobbyist do you think we would have or guns?

Sorry I was so long winded in this reply.

 

[lycosa]

Mustangrde1:

Thanks again for your post. I would have responded sooner but I work nights and haven’t had much time lately. I have spent some time really going over some of the older posts in ‘BOI’ and ‘Hell’ forums though and have read some of your comments regarding various other topics. For what it’s worth, you certainly have gained my respect.

OK….I agree that Florida’s laws are adequate as written and would work well if enforced by properly trained officers. I too have seen many pet stores with sick and malnourished animals. Maybe the private keepers should offer training to the wildlife officers? That may sound a little conceded but if F&W ‘fishes’ these posts as I’ve read, then it would seem obvious that there are many people here which could offer guidance and training.
Or better yet, F&W could test, screen, interview, and appoint volunteers from our own hobby to do the inspections. However the standards and practices are improved, by improving training for current inspecting officers or self regulated guidelines, I think you’ll agree that the initiative for change lies in our own hands. After all, we are the ones who’ll suffer when someone acts irresponsibly.

As I said before, nothing but excellent standards and practices will promote longevity for this hobby. How can we expect to defend ourselves against PETA, the government, or any other special interest group when things like gross negligence, abhorrent mutilations, blatantly irresponsible handling, and downright criminal activity play like theme music on some of these web forums? In the face of these antagonists nothing short of a symbiotic relationship will do; and arguably so.

I must point out that I do not feel that the majority of venomous reptile keepers fall into the above categories but it is only the above mentioned minority who get all the attention.
Scientists observe a symbiotic relationship as a ‘living together of two dissimilar organisms in mutually beneficial way’. As keepers we strive to provide health, habitat, reproduction, and all necessary provisions which promote welfare. In return we have the pleasure of sharing space and time with these animals which is beneficial to us. That is the majority of us, but don’t wait for positive recognition to show up on your local 6:00 news. We can only expect that the minority will continue in the limelight. As you pointed out, this will extend to every faction in the hobby regardless of what your personal interests are.

The only defense against further government regulation is a personal commitment to safety, welfare, and professionalism. If the initiative is not taken, it will be mandated.

I like the idea of retaining an attorney for the hobby. A voice is needed in our favor at meetings which could inevitably decide our fate. Unwarranted attacks and unjust policies must be monitored closely and dealt with accordingly. Doesn’t this support some sort of committee with a treasury as I’ve described?

Also, I’ve read some posts by ‘Snakegetters’ regarding self regulation and/or reformation. I would also like to invite her to post an opinion on this if she has the time, as well as any others with an opinion on this subject.

 

[Mustangrde1]

I would love to see the Pet industry as a whole have its own lawyers and Lobbist. Lets face facts and the truth without them we will see our hobby quickly regulated out. The problem as I have said before is that their are just to many factions and people do not seam to grasp the idea that what happens to one animal leads to laws on them all in simple terms.

We have a hobby of people who want to do their thing and be left alone or not wantto get involved in making it better and fighting for what is right. God forbid someone say lets ban all dogs and horses because they kill and injure so many people a year. Can you imagine the AKC and its responce and the call to arms that would fly out. Yet when a ban on reptiles is mentioned the hobbist and bussiness men of the hobby just sit back and dont do a thing. It has frustrated me for a long time.

Yet these are the same people when a ban on guns is mentioned for example will write everyone and their mother get the NRA involved and every hunting club or group around. What makes reptiles so unimportant to people who claim they love them and are passionate about them?

Getting a group togeather would be good but it needs to be on a National level and needs to have the funding to support the lawyers and lobbist that would give it teeth!