Inquiry REPTICON Show Series Exclusive Sponsorship Agreement with FL Chams

[brandonsthaman]

I am not a breeder but a customer, so that is where my point of view is coming from...

In my opinion to limit the show to one chameleon vendor doesn't benefit anyone but that one vendor. But, I do think that putting a limit on the number of species specific vendors (ie: only cornsnakes, only chameleons) is a good idea.

For example: the promotors could reserve a number of spaces for other types of animals like turtles, frogs, or spiders. Then, after all those vendors had a chance at them, open up the remaining tables for anyone. This way you would be able to see a good mix of animals at the show.

As stated previously, customers benefit from having a variety of vendors.

 

[eric adrignola]

This makes perfect sense, business wise, and is perfectly legal and fine.

Business wise.

People like me, who are involved in the business end of it as an afterthought - we're not seeing it simply as a business decision. Really, I understand why they did it and how it improves things overall. But for hobbyists like me, who will get a table every once in a while when a clutch hatching coincides with a reptile show being nearby, it's not a good thing.

I like to go to a show and see a few chameleon vendors. Aside from the phelsuma, I don't care about much else. The idea of more chameleon vendors being disallowed from a show does not sit well with me - not in a business sense, of course, but as a hobbyist.

I will walk into a show and see FLchams - which has better quality animals than most any chameleon vendor - and I'll enjoy that. But I'll be disappointed to know that some guy who hatched out some weird montane species and a few veileds was not able to get a table.

It makes the experience less enjoyable for me, as a hobbyist.

There's nothing un-American about it - business is business.

The "problem" for me is that this is my hobby, and I do not think of things related to it in the same capitalistic, business sense - I have higher expectations of my hobby than I would of the industry in general. While I understand that the move makes good business sense overall, I "feel"* it is a bad move for the hobby end of it.

I'm sure this is the same problem most people are having with this issue.

I do believe that this will result in Flchams having no real monopoly on chameleons at the shows. People are going to grab a few leopard geckos, or supplies, and loophole their way into the shows. It will not be possible to ban all other chameleons from the show. I do not believe the exclusivity will be feasible in the long term. You've got so many vendors that sell chameleons and other animals - the formerly "chameleon only" vendors will adapt quickly. Then you're left with a decision to let it go, or to arbitrarily deny vendors a table for the purpose of keeping chameleon numbers low enough to keep your end of the deal - and that just would not be cut and dry, black and white.

Regardless of anything in this thread, Mike's at least a GOOD breeder/vendor - they could have picked a hell of a lot worse chameleon vendors to sponsor the show! And Repticon has done a great job with the SC and Atlanta shows. They had quite an uphill battle getting them to where they are now. I do not doubt the owners' of Repticon ability to run a show. I'm sure this decision was not made without some research and thought.

* I reserve "feelings" for opinions and issues which are not dependent on facts to resolve.

 

[KathyLove]

Although I agree with Jerry that there are always costs for every decision, I have to agree even more with Chris that this may well be a good decision for Repticon, when they take into account ALL of their shows, not just the few that EVERYONE wants to vend at.

For example, let's suppose that they want to now have a dart frog breeder at every show, but no specialty dart frog breeder wants to go to several of their smaller shows because it is not profitable. But 3 dart frog breeders go to their best shows. In order to tempt one of them to come to the less profitable shows, the promoter could pay them to come, offer them exclusives at ALL of their shows, or just go without a breeder at the less desirable shows. Say they will still allow other dealers to sell some dart frogs, but only allow one specialty dart frog breeder, thus ensuring a specialty, quality, dart frog breeder at ALL shows, even the smallest one. That scenario seems like it would serve the public, allow competition and selection, and be good business for the consumer, the promoter, and the exclusive vendor. The only losers would be the 2 dart frog breeders who did not take the offer to incur the expenses of the less profitable shows in order to reap the benefits of the great shows. If these dart / chameleon / other specialty / breeders were ALREADY going to the smaller shows, the idea never would have come up. If there was a better and more cost effective way to tempt a well known, well presented, specialty breeder of whatever is needed, into the smaller shows, I would imagine the Repticon promoters would be interested in hearing about it. Of course, I am just guessing about all of this, based on logic. I have not discussed this with anyone at Repticon, so all of you know as much about this as I do.

Presumably they will change their written policy to reflect these new changes, and just haven't had time yet. I can't really speak about that issue as I don't know.

I see costs and benefits of each way of doing business. But by doing what is best for his shows, the promoter will indirectly be doing what is best for the majority of attendees. That is because attendance will drop if enough people don't like the show, and hopefully that will prompt a change in policy, if needed, to increase attendance again.

 

[chameleonkingdom]

Sorry for the late response everyone. Chris Anderson, I understand that you are upset about bringing up Mikes name, but I knew it would come up anyway, and I felt like I needed to bring up the whole story. Your friends with Mike, so I know you know what this is all about im sure. I didn't want to pull Chris C into this to much, but I don't feel that Mike would have ever done this if it hadn't been about that. And because of that, me, and every other small breeder out there is the victim of that, so Im taking it personally. You say I "conveniently" didn't post the email correspondence, inferring I have something to hide which is anything but the truth. I was going to post it if I had to, but I was refraining to protect Chris and most of his disagreement until he joined the conversation, but Billy took care of that part for me. So if Chris Carter is upset about that, hes going to have to take it up with Billy. I have not posted any lies, so don't try to make it sound like Ive been hiding something up in those emails. Your completely right, I don't have any proof to show that Billy modified those terms, which is why I put I believe. You can believe whatever you want, all I know, is that wasn't there when I signed up, and I think its to much of a coincidence that it "appeared" on the same day that i sent my last email discussing the issue. Believe what you want. I understand that this is all business, but the moral aspect has me bothered much more. Mike must realize, that every chameleon he sells, he is selling to a potential competitor. You Chris, are truly an asset to the hobby, and I respect that, and I respect you as a person, and what you've done in the chameleon community. We can agree to disagree, and I'm not asking you for forgiveness, but I think we both share the same feeling that we enjoy watching the hobby GROW, and mike pulling this fast move (conveniently after chris c's ordeal), is only putting a damper on an already small community of enthusiasts.

Also, Billy let me clarify, I never mentioned me sending you a check, another user posted that, and I also never said I would set up shop outside your show. I have other places to sell my animals, including my website which will be up soon, and I also plan on attending shows put on my other organizers. Repticon is the only series that comes close to home, and they even have an event in Atlanta, and I cant even participate in a show that is in my home state. I just feel that now, If I am not allowed to participate in these shows that are much closer, I have to travel 600+ miles to other venues, and not only is that expensive, but I am try to avoid carting my animals all over the country to shows (especially chameleons). I plan to speak to Billy in person on Sunday, if I can get a hold of him

-Nic Herrett

 

[KathyLove]

Very good points, Eric!

I am not sure how they will enforce the "some chameleons, but not only chameleons" rule. Maybe they will say a certain percentage of table space devoted to them? Not sure. But maybe it would work out for everyone if a small chameleon breeder bought a table with a small gecko or beardie breeder, and pooled their resources. Then Fl Chams would have the "big presence" that should help them do well, yet maybe the little guys could occupy some smaller niches here and there, but without a banner that says Chameleon Breeder on it. I don't know if that would work or not. But it is always better to try to come up with solutions, rather than just to complain or threaten.

I don't know the details. But I know, and have dealt with, both Billy (Repticon) and Mike (Fl Chams). They seem like reasonable people. It may be too late to make changes to shows that are almost upon us. But I bet that if would - be vendors come up with solutions that allow Repticon to lure Mike to the little shows lacking a chameleon vendor, and to make the shows as good (or better) for both Mike and Repticon, as well as the attendees, with your proposed solution instead of the old one, that they will be willing to work with you. They seem open minded about such things. But of course, it would help to negotiate without rancor and threats, and try to be very business like about the whole thing.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Kathy, in the end,

whoever has the exclusive rights may loose out to smaller non chameleon vendors who are selling chameleons as well as other items... Its not a good deal for the vendor when he has no guarantee that his exposure will produce more sales then a person who brings a line of herps including chameleons.

Maybe yes for Repticon as this is a program devoted to insuring their own survival at shows, but for how long before the exclusive vendor begins to realize that he is not making any more then had he not been obligated in purchasing the additional tables, time, transportation, etc.

These shows were not meant for these types of agreements.. Maybe yes to feeder operations, but not herps.. Time will tell. What I am curious to know is how does one become un-exclusive if things dont work out...what are the liabilities when dealing with attorneys who are running the show !

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

I also feel this arrangement doesn't benefit anyone other than the party with the exclusive (in this case, FL Chams). Yes, Repticon does ensure that they have chameleons at every show...but that fails in comparison.

As a hobbyist and potential paying visitor to the show, this bothers me. Like others, I like the variety. I'm no chameleon enthusiast myself, but if I were, I would get bored very quickly if I see the same single vendor at every single Repticon I go to. Heck, I already feel the same way about the way ZooMed and Glass Cages have the same deal. I frequently am on the lookout for good deals on enclosures, but all I see at practically every show in the Southeast (minus the NARBC and NRBE shows) are the over-priced stock of ZooMed and GlassCage that I can get at pretty much any petstore.

But I'm getting a little off subject. I see the same thing happening with this FL Cham deal. Nothing against FL Chams, but again, the variety issue comes into play. Chameleon Kingdom may have that one chameleon I just happen to like better than anything on FL's table.

And there's also the question others have raised...where does it end? If two different vendors who sold only ball pythons wanted to buy tables at Repticon, do they have to contest for Bill's good favor in order to get the slot?

Even from a business standpoint, I just don't see how this is going to help Repticon in the long run if it potentially deters paying visitors from walking in the front door.

 

[TylerStewart]

It should be reminded (again) that prior to this, Repticon didn't have more than 1 "chameleon only" breeder at their shows. This agreement is not booting out 6 other chameleon vendors that are always there... Sure, it's preventing a few from entering this one show, but over the course of their show season, there will now be more appearances by a chameleon only vendor (by having FLChams at every show) than there would have been by having 3 vendors at this one show, and nobody at many other, smaller shows (that FLChams wouldn't have done otherwise).

Further, it's difficult to run a successful business when you base any of your decisions on emotion. Having a love of the animals is a good way to start and makes it fun day to day, but FLChams is a business. Yeah it sucks that the 2 vendors that were unable to do this show are/were friends with FLChams (at least prior to this), but you can't expect a business not to make an effort to further his or her own business for the sake of being friends. That would be a business decision based on emotion, which puts many businesses out of business. This thread was posted on the basis of emotion.

In the small world of chameleon breeders, I think this thread will do much more damage to the OP than it will to Repticon or FLChams. Ever since this came up on ChameleonForums.com a few weeks back, I've maintained (and told some of the involved parties) that "taking it to Fauna" was a bad idea. It's just not worth the burned bridges.

 

[Lucille]

Business is business. If this happened to me, and I was one of the chameleon vendors that could not participate, I'd run a LOUD cham sale starting a week before the show.

Advertise everywhere, give your customers a nice little price break, and make sure that everyone who is thinking of buying chams in that time period buys from you

Your competition can be as exclusive as they want, if those customers emptied their wallets on your stock a week before the show, they won't spend at that show.

It is worthwhile to take a moment and read over some of the quotes of John D. Rockefeller "Competition is a sin". He was a nice guy and the Rockefeller foundation is know for its philanthropy, but he was a ruthless businessman.


If someone makes a business move you don't like, don't complain. Think smart; think of alternative methods that will leave them in the dust. EVERY customer that walks into your competitor's show with cham bucks to spend is a failure on your part. Don't let it happen. Advertise, advertise, advertise.

My feeling is that if their business agreements are met with appropriate, swift and ruthless business responses by you, soon enough it will be business as usual, because people don't want a bloody economic battles, they want to sell chams, and there are probably enough cham buyers so everyone can have a piece of the action.

But if someone decides they want a battle, just make sure you win.
No mercy

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Lucille, from the way I see it,

unless I am wrong. The promoters are not prohibiting other vendors from selling chameleons, but they will only have 1 chameleon vendor as an exclusive. That would be like me being the only business to sell fruitflies exclusively, but other vendors can put cultures on there tables.... Thats the crux of the fallacy !

Its a bad deal for the vendor and great for the promoter. I am sure there are obligations on both sides, but the fact still remains, what if the exclusive vendor does not do well or as well as other herp vendors . What if the chameleons dont sell at this exclusive vendor table, but chameleons are bought from other vendor tables.... Its foolish to get into that area where no one really knows what will sell, and how much of an attraction the Repticon shows promote..

I am sure , that somewhere more tables will have to be purchased, and more shows will have to be attended, and more monies spent in order to accommodate both the exclusive vendor and whatever the promoter is willing to provide as an inducement... That may even include some legal contracts..

In either case, it will be interesting to watch. It has never worked before with herps, so I dont see this as a threat to vendors who sell multiple items and do not specialize in one item only that would endanger there ability to attend..

 

[eric adrignola]

I have to restate something. The problem lies in the distinction between hobbyists and businessmen.

On the business level, I see no problem with this. I do think the inability to completely prevent vendors from selling chameleons will render any exclusivity somewhat worthless.

As a hobbyist, this kinda bothers me. This is my hobby, I do this for fun. I like to sell animals and make money selling animals, but I never NEED to. So, I look upon things like this in a different way than I would if it were purely business. For me, and for others who are NOT dependent on selling animals to put food on the table, we DO have an emotional response.

 

[fred tompson]

what is a reptile show

I have been going to reptile shows for a long time, I have been to some of the repticon shows in Fl. and i have seen allot of thing go on over the past few years, I go to buy reptiles and supplies, and from what I have seen and herd i dont think i will be going back since everything is fixed and set up to take advantage of people like me the person that pays to get in, I dont want to go to a show and see the same venders their that have made some kind of arrangement to be the only one their, I want selection and I want to be able to see a selection of prices, not one vender setting the price since he is the only one their and has no competition,

You dont see Wayne Hill owner of the National Breeders Expo giving vender exclusives rights, ""ah oh my bad I guess that is why he has one of the largest reptile shows in the world"" he doesnt play those games like that he gives everyone a chance, if you dont do good at the show then you need to change what you sell and how you sell it, but everyone should be able to sell at any reptile show no matter what. how do I know that this Fl Chams has the best selection and the lowest prices if their is no one else their for me to compare prices and selection, This is what makes people not want to go to a reptile show, why should i pay $8.00 to get into the door and then have no selection, this shows me that repticon is a fixed monopolized show, he treats this show like an attraction, all he cares about is taking peoples money at the door and not what they want, show them a fake show just make it look like their is verity, but when they find out what is going on at these shows they wont come back, they will save their money for a better show like Daytona.

Repticon did the same thing to a dry good vender that I use to buy my dry good from at his show, he stopped this guy from coming, and he had the best prices and the largest selection, I would spend $400.00 to $500.00 at that venders both, I found out when I went to the orlando show last year that Repticon stoped this guy from coming. Repticon emailed they guy 5 days before the show and told him that they was not going to let him sell at the show that weekend, and this guy spent over $8000.00 in dry goods and animals to sell at that weekends show, I thought that was very dirty of repticon, They could of at least let the guy set up that weekend and get his money back that he had spent, So you are not the only one Nic that repticon has done this to, Who is next, Who is it going to be, I wouldnt want to plain on selling any reptiles at repticon shows because i would be afraid that I would spend all that money for hotel room and tables and what ever I was going to sell at the show and then be told I couldnt do the show, I would be pissed.

 

[Ed Clark]

Very good post Fred, seems like repticon is trying hard at shooting their selves in the foot over and over again.

 

[fred tompson]

I fell for Nic

From me going to reptile show and buying reptiles and supplies I see what goes into setting up at those shows their is allot of work and allot of money that goes into the display's that these venders use, what does a vender have to do to get ready for a show, does anyone think about that, They have to get hotel rooms if the show is fare away from them, they have to by supplies, take time off from work if they work other job, buy the things they need for a display, get some help for the show to set up and help people with their purchase, so put yourself in Nic's shoe's, he already made plains and arrangements for the show, spent money on things needed for the show, probly paid for hotel room, told people he was going to be their, and everything else he did to get ready just to be turned down, and everything he did was a waist of time, but does repticon care, or did they do anything to help him out to try to make up for their mistake, witch it was repticons fault for not posting in their terms and conditions that Fl.Chams was the only vender that can sell chameleons, no they didnt , no money out of their pockets, that is just Nic's lost, they dont care what someone puts into getting ready for a show and then turn them down, Who is next, Who are they going to do this to next,

it is funny that Repticon makes sure that they dont get turned down at a venue when they pay their money for a building to do these shows at, but they make sure they fix it were they can turn down a vender if they dont want them their at the last minute.

Venders need to stand up and put a stop to this, and people that pay that $8.00 to walk into the show need to stand up. the economy is hard as it is so people want the best deals that they can get and a better selection, I guess you cant get that at a repticon show with how they are running it. I will not go to another one again. I feel like I have been robbed myself knowing that things like this take place at these shows, I thought that these shows was a place to get great prices on reptiles and supplies, I see now that I was wrong, it makes you wonder who you really are buying from at a show if the show only lets certain venders in, and it makes you wonder if you are really getting a good deal on what you buy.

Nic how much money did you spend to get ready for this show, everything you bought and the time you put into getting ready for it, I think everyone need to know that to, because time is money, it is more than just getting your money back for the spaces, it is everything you did to get ready.

 

[Ed Clark]

My understanding is that the promoter is a lawyer or ex lawyer, that makes perfect sense that a lawyer would try offering exclusive vendor rights to the bigger breeders for a fee and try to exclude the smaller breeders from his repticon shows.

More than likely the little bit of money he sees from selling exclusive vendor rights will be wiped out with a smaller number of people coming in the front door because of less variety to look at and buy.

 

[eric adrignola]

The chameleon area of the reptile industry is dominated by hobbyists. There are very few all-out businesses in the chameleon wing of the industry. Fact is, the majority of chameleon breeders are now excluded from vending at Repticon shows.

Overall, it may or may not be a bad financial move - time will tell.

However, it is something that will make a considerable number of people unhappy.

 

[bradleymoore]

im glad the only large show around me is NARBC in arlington, tx, and it seems they let just about anybody in who has a good variety as long as room permits. although i think this years show wasnt as good as 08, it had several vendors with the same quality stock at competitive prices.

 

[brandonsthaman]

I went to the show this weekend and I just wanted to tell everyone what I saw. There were several (atleast 5) people selling chameleons other than FL Chams. Those people also had animals other than chameleons. FL Chams prices were in line with everyone else's and in my opinion their animals looked better... My girlfriend bought a veiled chameleon from them, and they took lots of time explaining things to her and made sure she was prepared for the new addition.

As far as the exclusive chameleon vendor stuff; I still think that sucks for the smaller guys. But it didn't seem to hurt the customers.

 

[fred tompson]

to brandonsthaman

Mybe Nic's chameleons are better than FL Chams and cheaper but you will never know becouse they was not allowed to set up at that show, and remember that you said you saw other people their selling chams and other animals, but Nic specializes in chameleons just like FL. Chams, so Nic could of had better chameleons and better prices, he didnt get the chances to show what he has, the more selection you have the better chances you will have to get a better animal and better price, that is a fact

 

[fred tompson]

also if their was other venders their selling chams then Nic should of been thier, so why is it that FL. Chams is the only on that can specialize in chams at these repticon shows if other venders can sell them, something is very fishy here people, can you say scam, scam scam, this show is fixed, boy it makes me want to go to these shows and get ripped off, it is all about that price to get into the door just to see a show that is set up and fack, they just make it look like a show but now we know how repticon does them, I wonder if i make a deal with repticon to be the only ball python dealer their, I woder how much I could pay them to make that happen