Reptile Show Ethics???

[Glenn Bartley]

I actually missed hearing it on Thanksgiving, I heard it about two days later, the day I took my son out on his first hunting trip. Good song, for sure, but I an getting off topic now, sorry.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

For the life of me, I can't remember the town in MA it was in, but.... when the song was popular.... I went to see a buddy of mine who was going to school up there, and I actually ATE at "Alice's Restaurant"! It was really "far out" and "right on" for a full-fledged hippy!

....Neil

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Well, slightly back on subject...

I agree with Kisha that it isn't the best thing for show promoters to allow outside animals into shows for people to sell/trade. That is what the vendors bought table-space for. And you know if you were at the Daytona show spending $500/table and Joe-Blow was allowed to wander in and out of the aisles with a bucket of animals only off of admission you would be raising hell(whether it was standard policy or not, I bet money you'd still be pissed they let that go on). However, if you knew that was their policy, so be it. As you said Glenn, "tough noogies." I have done several shows before where this was allowed and I wasn't happy about it, but I knew ahead of time this was going on and decided to take the risk anyway. The show worked out fine for me and there were fewer "off the street" people than I expected.

For a fun example though, let's say you run a show in Buttlick, AK(for example). You decide to sell tables for $50/ea for a one day show that is held monthly at the local VFW. You charge an admission fee of $2/person to get in. You allow people to bring in animals from the outside for sale/trade purposes. Your first show out, you do pretty good and sell out your 20 tables(just using round numbers here)and you have 100 people come in. Out of those 100, let's say 10 bring in animals to sell. Your vendors notice these 10 people walking around selling animals and only having to pay $2 what you paid $50 to do. Now, one of these vendors say screw this, and let's say they come in with two friends and a bunch of animals next month and pay a total of $6 admission to the show. You have just lost $44 to this vendor not buying a table. Let's say after this show, 5 more vendors see what's going on and they decide to do the same thing the next month down the line. Eventually, you will not have too many tables being bought because there is no reason to do it. At least that is my view on it.

But if it bothers you, either tell the people doing it, or tell the promoters WHEN you see it. I have no compunctions about telling someone to leave my table due to behavior, selling other animals in front, loose animals(I'll address this on the BS forum later), or whatever. I prefer NOT to resort to that, but hey, sometimes that's the breaks. Not much anyone can do after the fact. Or simply, don't attend shows where you know this goes on.

 

[Dianne Johnson]

Interesting topic......here's my .02 on it.

I haven't looked on the BOI to see which show this is about, not yet anyway, but the principle should be the same regardless of the specific show and I must admit I'm in agreement with Glenn. The promoter can run the show any way they see fit. Because they allow individuals with animals in the show does not make them unethical or wrong. It simply means you don't agree with it. I just started doing a new local reptile show this summer. It's an hour's drive from my home and $45 per table. I was working with my friend to sell her litter of Bci and I was selling the handmade jewelry that I do (I didn't have any animals available for sale at the time). At this show, people are allowed to bring in animals to sell or trade. A number of the vendors will work trades or purchase these animals and sometimes others attending the show will purchase them. At the August show, a guy that ran a local pet store had brought in a few animals that he had produced and was trading for other animals that vendors had for sale. Both parties benefit from this, the vendor gets an animal that they possibly want or one they can sell; the guy who brought the animals in can trade for animals he wants for his personal collection or to diversify the stock offered in his store. In all fairness, this particular guy wasn't trying to sell to the public, he was specifically trading with the vendors. But even if he wasn't just targeting the vendors, the show's policies allow him to do this. Trades were an integral part of this hobby in years past, it wasn't all about producing animals for profit. I'm not saying it isn't good to make a profit, just that some of the older ideas aren't inherently bad. If you are an individual that happened to produce a few cbb animals, it is another avenue for expanding your collection and making a few dollars off of the animals you produced. From the guy I mentioned, I got a great little coastal carpet python - an animal I had wanted for some time - in trade for one of my friend's babies and she traded another baby Bci for a hatchling retic - an animal she had wanted for some time. We all won out in the deal. She and I got two animals we wanted and this guy got a pair of exceptional boa babies to either sell or raise to breed.

Let's look at this from another viewpoint. As I mentioned above, I make handcrafted jewelry. It's strictly a hobby and I only do a few local craft shows every year. The booth fees range from $25 to $75 per space and some of these shows are an hour or more away from my home in just the drive time. There are a number of people who make and sell jewelry of all types. Some shows have more jewelry than others. Most of the shows I do have rules governing the types of crafts sold - usually that they have to be handmade, not purchased, and things of that nature. However, some shows do not require that the crafts sold are handmade and will allow vendors to sell products they purchased wholesale from a manufacturer. Does it bother me when I'm placed next to a table selling manufactured necklaces for a portion of the cost it takes to produce mine? Sure it does because I'm there to make a profit. Is there anything I can do about it? Not really. The promoter of the show allows it. So when a potential customer asks why the necklaces (or whatever) next to me are so much cheaper than what I am offering, I explain that I design and make each piece myself and my prices are based on the cost of the materials, the quality of the components and my time. Sometimes I make the sale, sometimes I don't. The point is, I provide quality and service to my customers, and I get a number of repeat sales. The table next to me might make the sale for the person looking for a bargain, but those looking for quality and a personal touch purchase from me. It's all in how you sell yourself and your product.

Dianne

 

[evansnakes]

I take exception to the inference that the Irba shows are somehow better because of their rules. You are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing a $3 entry fee and $35 table fee to a show with $125 tables. That is a poor comparison. When you say "this part of the country" I feel a history lesson is in order. The first reptile shows in the country were put on by The Michigan Society of Herpetologists. The first for profit show was the Columbus, Ohio show. The first exotic pet and reptile exclusive pet shops were here in Michigan. Many of the largest and most well respected people in this industry either live in this part of the country or did. I do not think you intended to be derrogotory in your initial post, but you do need to understand that you come accross that way. Maybe you prefered being out west and are not happy with living in this more eastern part of the country. I would say that you are allowing that to taint your opinion of the herp industry here.

I have been a vendor at over 1000 reptile shows in over 30 cities in, I believe 15 or 16 states all over the country. I have seen good and bad all over. If you want to see a super clean CB only show that is in Michigan, that does not allow animals in from the public I would like to personally invite you to attend my next annual show in November 2003. This is not at all a plug for my show as very few people who don't know about it already will read this. I just want you to know that they exist. I would welcome you as a vendor or an attendee. One thing you need to keep in mind in the future is what kind of show you are attending. You can't fault a show promoter because you assumed that the Ohio show would be just like the Irba show. The Ohio show has existed since long before you had enough CB herps or vendors to even do a show. Evan Stahl

 

[VaranidGuy]

I come from the "south west" too, being southern california. I dislike the fact that the IRBA shows do NOT allow people to come in with live animals for trading. It would be a good possible business opprotunity for trading. But I do agree that they should not be able to SELL their animals, if anybody from the "street" is caught advertising or trying to sell anything, they should be thrown out. Simply for trading is a good idea.

 

[Fred Albury]

Kisha....heres your answer!!!!

Kisha,

As a *VENDOR* at the I.R.B.A. Shows throughout the state of Calif for the last 8 years, I feel it is incumbant upon me to add my *OPINION* here.

First of all, Glen Bartley, your opinions, though they are your own, and I respect them as that, arelibelous, and you make every attemp to LABEL Kishas actions as a"typical case of "I gotta be in control Liberalism"

Thats a crock and you know it.

If a vendow(Me for instance) plunks down hard earned money to rent a table at a show with the expressed purpose of trying to showcase or sell his/her wres, then WHY should somebody be admitted to said show and allowed to market their WARES or items for sale for virtually NOTHING?

If the show itself doesnt openly discourage this practice, either due to arcane thinking practices or because they want to make it more of a "swapmeet" of reptiles,, then that needs to be stated UP FRONT in writing to EVERY vendor BEFORE they put out money and sign on the dotted line. Then the vendor can do one of two things:

a) Choose NOT to exhibit their animals at that show, afraid of cross contamination, theft(If people arewalking around with animals not enclosed HOW do you KNOW that they havent come off of another vendors table, stolen?) or just dismayed that the BUYING PUBLIC is being allowed to purchase reptiles from people that dont even have enough VESTED INTEREST in this whole thing to even rent a table at a pultry $50 for the weekend(Pleazzee....anyone that cant put up $50 to rent a table is either to cheap or focused on ONLY profit)

OR

b) complain to the promoter that this show, allthough good, could be SOO much better if people were not allowed to just bring their animals in and walk around with them nor properly enclosed.

Sound to me GLENN, that Kisha was trying to improve the quality of the show she WANTED to exhibit in. And it also sounds GLENN, like she was voicing her *OPINION* something you did Quite freely in your earlier posts. Would you deny here this right, while maintsining the need for it yourself?

Kisha, the shows where you are at are run diffrently than the I.R.B.A. shows here. The IRBA shows here are well run affairs, with security, a staff availble for the load in, raffles,drawings, prizes.
Try and make the best you can with what you have to work with, and if you dont feel comfortable selling at those shows then dont bang your head against the wall, sell over the internet, it works much better generally speaking and you never have to expose your beloved animals to diseases and deal with price cutting mobile deal makers. Better yet....move back here *PRONTO*!lol
and as for the hecklers...IGNORE them, in the grandf scheme of things they are as insignificant and unreal as a San Diego Charger fieldgoal!!

Take care,
Fred Albury

AZTEC REPTILES

GO RAIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

If the show itself doesnt openly discourage this practice, either due to arcane thinking practices or because they want to make it more of a "swapmeet" of reptiles,, then that needs to be stated UP FRONT in writing to EVERY vendor BEFORE they put out money and sign on the dotted line.

Simply put Fred, it was and is to every single vendor.

 

[Kisha]

Where exactly is it put forth in writing?? The only place I saw anything about outside animals was on the website, which lists animals for SALE OR TRADE- it says nothing about the public being allowed to come in and sell their animals. Or mabey I didn't read enough into the site. Not knowing any better I thought that you had to become a vendor at this show inorder to sell animals there. I guess I was wrong, lesson learned.

Kisha

 

[Dianne Johnson]

Fred,

I have come to respect you over the years I've spent reading your posts and am sorely disappointed with the implications of this statement in your post:

the shows where you are at are run diffrently than the I.R.B.A. shows here. The IRBA shows here are well run affairs, with security, a staff availble for the load in, raffles,drawings, prizes.

This reads with the implication that the shows in this section of the country are NOT "well run affairs, with security, a staff availble for the load in, raffles,drawings, prizes", when in fact, they are. I've not been to the Ohio show but I've been to a majority of the shows in Maryland and Virginia and plan to start attending more of those in North Carolina and Pennsylvania next season. Most of those shows do have raffles, door prizes, etc. - though I personally don't see how that qualifies if the show is good or not. Quality of the show should depend on the quality of the animals and the vendors at that show and nothing else IMO.

Also, the majority of the shows around here don't permit outside animals with attendees for any reason though there are a couple of the shows that do permit outside animals for trade purposes. As for the chance for spreading disease and parasites, those things can just as easily come from another table as they can with someone walking through the door with an animal. If anyone thinks that just because someone pays for a table that it means their animals are clean, they are sadly mistaken. The Fredericksburg show where I was a vendor has a very reputable herp vet go around to each table and inspect the animals. Policy stands that anything that is less than satisfactory is removed from the table. That is the general practice at every show I attend in this area. Am I naive enough to think that means all the animals are 100% healthy? Heck no. Everything I purchase or trade for still gets quarantined and any problems checked by a qualified herp vet.

On a final note, whether it's one of my craft shows or a herp show where I intend to be a vendor, I go to the show first before ever signing up for a table. I look around to see how the show is presented to the public and what goes on at the show. Where possible, I speak with other vendors. This is especially true of the herp shows because I have the full intention of selling any animals I produce at these. While I may not fully research a craft show, one where my animals will be is an entirely different matter. There is simply the matter of taking personal responsibility for your choices. If you don't check the show out previously and purchase a table on blind faith, you get what you get. If you attend first and don't like the way the show is run, don't participate as a vendor. If the Ohio show is growing more popular and larger, obviously there are others who want that type of show and people regularly return both as vendors and attendees. I personally feel it is a vendor's responsibility to look into and understand how the show is run prior to participating in it. I can't imagine the promoters have the time to go through every detail with every vendor or potential vendor - it just isn't practical.

Just my .03 worth.
Dianne

 

[Fred Albury]

I.R.B.A. Shows and more..............

Dianna,

You are RIGHT, for me to blanket the shows that arent I.R.B.A. Shows into one muddled, badly run group is wrong. I would have to go on a case by case basis. I apologize.
kisha clearly indicated how the *SHOW*(Singular) she attended was run, the practices of allowing the buying public to run around with loose, uncontained animals, unchecked seems a tad INSANE to me. But this is my opinion. If the public and vendors at that show want that, then who am I to say otherwise, other than to suggest that things could be made better by instilling some changes. The I.R.B.A. Shows out here are not run the way THAt particuklar show that Kisha attended is. I thank God for that, because if they were I wouldnt attend them. I am happy with the way the IRBA shows are run, and am sure there are other shows run just as efeciently on the East Coast. kishas show just wasnt one of them. Thanks for the kind words.

Fred Albvury
AZTEC REPTILES

 

[Mike Beard II]

kisha clearly indicated how the *SHOW*(Singular) she attended was run, the practices of allowing the buying public to run around with loose, uncontained animals, unchecked seems a tad INSANE to me.

She dramatically over stated the truth and you all have been band wagoning it. I go to the show almsot monthly an meet several friends at it too. I have seen the staff make outside carry-ins be contained when someone is over doing it. It is not a common pratice as she would have you think. Her comments are based on one (1) show. Hardly enough to condemn the entire thing because she feels she wasn't listened to after the fact.

Get the facts into perspective. This show is a very good show from the few dfferent ones that I have seen. It's not the caliber of Daytona, but few are. I am glad they allow carry-ins. I got my last boa that way at that very show. Worked out well for me. Thanks Greg.

 

[Glenn Bartley]

I said earlier on that I had probably posted my last comments on this thread, however since Fred may such a point of addressing me in particular, I feel I should reply to him. This is a very long post, if it takes up to much bandwidth, then I ask that the webmaster remove it if he needs to. Sorry it is so long, but I really thing that Fred, in my opinion, really confused this issue as far as my replies to Kisha went - so I would like to explain my comments and opinions in light of his post:

Fred,

Your post is rather difficult for me to understand. Yes I comprehend what you are saying, but I find your interpretation of what I believe rather off the mark to say the least in my opinion. Yes I stated my opinion in reply to the post of Kisha that invited other's opinions. I did that just as I am doing with you. I do not make my opinion a statement of fact, but one of what I believe. I am entitled to my opinions and such is not libelous wherein I do not state such as fact or maliciously attack someone else. Please explain sir how giving my opinion is libelous, even if my opinion is that she is practicing liberalism or that she is wrong on this issue. These are my feelings, my opinions and are stated as such throughout my posts. I am not stating it as fact, nor do I intend to imply such. If you make such implication by reading my post, that is your error and not mine. I do not mince words and when I say it is my belief, or my opinion, or I think, or as I see it, that is just what I mean – it is my viewpoint, and not yet a proven fact.

Now for you to go on and call my opinion a "crock" (and I am sort of guessing that you mean you think my opinion is a lie) and then say that I know my own opinion is a crock, is in my belief nonsensical. I wonder if you say this because of some type of personal anger control problem, and wonder if you are angry at me for stating my opinion just because it is in opposition to yours and Kisha’s. Let me assure you that: I would not waste my time posting as many well thought out responses, as I did, if in fact I believed it to be a "crock". Just because you believe such does not mean even for a moment that I do! If you truly think that I would waste my valuable time writing what I believed were untruths, or a what amounts to a “crock” as you call it, on this particular subject - well, then all I can say is that you are mistaken This last particular statement, about you being mistaken if that is what you believe, is not my opinion but a fact!

As to your arguments about not allowing the policy of other than vendors coming into a show with animals, let me look at that point by point. Here is a quote from your post:

"If a vendow(Me for instance) plunks down hard earned money to rent a table at a show with the expressed purpose of trying to showcase or sell his/her wres, then WHY should somebody be admitted to said show and allowed to market their WARES or items for sale for virtually NOTHING?"

Well I would answer as I did before, it is the prerogative of the promoter to run his/her show as seen fit by the promoter. They started this show as a small time breeder/dealer/trader show to encourage small time breeders/dealers/traders, if I understand it correctly. They then expanded to allow commercial vendors. If that is what they as the promoters want, I again ask, why do you see a need to ruin it or change it. This one show is not in anyway going to cause you to go bankrupt if you do not attend, is it? If you do not like it, do not vend at that show, that is your prerogative Of course you can complain, and try to upset the apple cart, so to speak. Maybe some of the complaints will fall on hearing ears and others on deaf ears. Maybe something will be changed, but why, and I ask this really not understanding, why do you see fit to try to change this one show with such, at least in my opinion, apparent vehemence?

As for vending at such a show, you would, in my opinion, be foolish to vend at a show that you believed had all the hazards you go on to speak about; that is of course if you actually believed everything that you wrote. (Do you get my drift, your crock stuff could work both ways, although I will not say {or think} even for a moment that I believe that you knowingly wrote what you believed was a crock. This does not mean I agree with your statements, but simply that I will remain a bit more respectful of your opinion, than I think, you did of mine, and give you the benefit of the doubt).

Let me quote you again:

"If the show itself doesnt openly discourage this practice, either due to arcane thinking practices or because they want to make it more of a "swapmeet" of reptiles,, then that needs to be stated UP FRONT in writing to EVERY vendor BEFORE they put out money and sign on the dotted line."

As for this being a reptile show as you and the promoters call it, I beg to differ. A show, I believe, by classic definition, is when the animals are on display in competition to win prizes or for the sake of showing them off. Some shows allow small time sales and trades. This is the classic definition of a show - but maybe you think that arcane. This so called show was either a reptile/amphibian swap meet or sale in your view if I understand you correctly, don’t you agree. I think what you feel is that it was a sale and not a swap meet. Maybe you should inquire before attending any Herp Show to make sure it is either a: show, a sale, or a swap meet since the terms are often used interchangeably and or incorrectly. Actually I think that would be rather responsible on the part of the vendor, and would be rather responsible on the part of the promoter to explain it also. If a promoter tries to fool you though, that may be criminal. Take such a promoter to court, not me. I am voicing my opinion. The promoter is the one who is renting the table space. I am pretty sure though, that if it is not stated in writing one way or the other, that the promoter would win this one so long as he/she did not try to mislead you otherwise. However, I do agree, that to be on the up and up, such should be made known to dealers right up front. I also think it stinks big time if a promoter does not let you know of this practice ahead of time; and it stinks double time if the vendor is so irresponsible as to assume the show will be one way and not make a detailed inquiry before the show about show rules. Didn’t I, in essence, mention that in one of my posts, let’s see, and I quote my post:

“Granted if the promoter tried to hide these facts from you, then that may be fraud on his part and that stinks. It also stinks if they were just too inconsiderate to let you know all of the rules, but that is only another reason that you should have checked on them.”


As for the vendor, I think that as a responsible vendor you would have an obligation to check on the terms of signing on that dotted line before you do so. You seem to think that when you sign up for a table, the promoter is responsible for everything, I disagree. I think you need to show some responsibility as a vendor, and asking such questions, instead of assuming how a show will be run would fall in this arena. How did Kisha approach the situation before the show? Did she check it out thoroughly or make an assumption? You can reread her posts and decide, she seemed somewhat ambiguous on this issue in my opinion. So, I am not sure, but she gives a hint early on in her posts, allow me to quote her: “I expected the same when I moved to the other side of the country.” This is making reference to no outside animals rules.


Fred, you go on to say that a vendor has only two options regarding such a situation, and I will address each, one at a time. I again quote you:

“a) Choose NOT to exhibit their animals at that show, afraid of cross contamination, theft(If people arewalking around with animals not enclosed HOW do you KNOW that they havent come off of another vendors table, stolen?) or just dismayed that the BUYING PUBLIC is being allowed to purchase reptiles from people that dont even have enough VESTED INTEREST in this whole thing to even rent a table at a pultry $50 for the weekend(Pleazzee....anyone that cant put up $50 to rent a table is either to cheap or focused on ONLY profit)”

This one covers a few things, so bear with me please. If you are afraid of cross contamination, then do not bring any of your animals to a show (used generically from now on to cover shows, sales, swap meets). The majority of obviously sick herps I have seen at shows have been on dealer’s tables, and this goes for shows I have attended across the country. Potential buyers handle the animals all the time, then move onto another table and handle others at that table. This is the number one way to spread disease at a show, not through some air borne disease. In fact I have never seen mites pole vault from one table to another but have seen them make it across the whole room at a herp show. They were all over a potential customers hands at one show, because he handled another dealer’s snakes that were infested with them. The guy was really worried and asked what they were and where they had come from. If you are truly worried about cross contamination then do not let anyone handle your snakes (then you will worry about why your snakes do not sell). If you are not quite that worried but still concerned, then make certain that anyone who handles your snakes washes with a good alcohol swab or alcohol gel prior to handling your snakes – have the swabs or gel available at your table. This will cut the risk greatly of cross contamination by bacteria and viruses as I understand it.

As to how you know if an animal was stolen from another vendor, you do not know. How would you know if the snake in the deli cup was not stolen from another vendor. I know tags and stickers can be put on deli cups and receipt have to be shown at the door. This is baby stuff for a pro. A pro would buy a snake, get the sticker on the deli cup and now have a receipt. Then he would dump that snake in his car and re-enter the show with the deli cup and receipt. Guess what, the next snake he steals goes right into that deli cup and he has a sticker and receipt. He could keep this up all day. As for the not so smart guy, if the guy stole the snake, don’t you think that in the great majority of cases even a dope would have enough sense to hide it until he/she makes a getaway?

As to people being too cheap or focused only on profit, excuse me but that seems to be the bottom line for you in my opinion. You seemed incensed, to me, that someone with a snake could come into the show and sell it. Why would a guy selling a snake or three want to put down $50 for a table when the snakes will only sell for $20 as in normal corns. It was be ridiculous for him to do so, in my mind; that is not being cheap, that is basic economics for a really small time herp enthusiast .

I move on to the other choice you said a vendor would have, and I quote you:

“b) complain to the promoter that this show, allthough good, could be SOO m”uch better if people were not allowed to just bring their animals in and walk around with them nor properly enclosed.”

I agree that all reptiles and amphibians should be properly enclosed; however not necessarily in cages or glass aquaria. I think that plastic shoeboxes, deli cups, plastic terraria, snake bags, and other such enclosures are also appropriate for a show as this.


I move onto your point about whether or not someone can state their opinion. I quote you again (I am quoting so there can be no misunderstanding):

“Sound to me GLENN, that Kisha was trying to improve the quality of the show she WANTED to exhibit in. And it also sounds GLENN, like she was voicing her *OPINION* something you did Quite freely in your earlier posts. Would you deny here this right, while maintsining the need for it yourself?”

Please bear in mind that it was Kisha who asked for opinions. I gave mine, and as soon as I did she tells me to stop giving it if I understand correctly. She told me, and I quote her post: “Whoa, Glenn, easy big fella”. Now I am not in anyway related to Mr. Ed, you remember him, don’t you. He was the talking horse (LOL). I do think “whoa” means I should stop in a way that someone is reigning in a horse. Don’t you agree that what she said to me is what you would say to reign in a horse? She also went on, as I understood it, to try and get me to use other language than I chose to in stating my opinion. I did not try to stop her from voicing her opinion, I just gave mine. I also replied to her again saying:

“You asked for opinions. I gave mine. If it is not in agreement with your own, well in the words of Sister Walter Phillip a nun I had in grammar school many years ago: TOUGH NOOGIES. I don't mean that to be nasty… I have a right to my opinion, just as you have a right to have your own opinion. I do not expect you to stop posting how you feel simply because our opinions disagree. I find it quite amusing though that: the first person whose opinion disagrees with your own and you tell that person "whoa.." and to " lay off...".

I think everyone should be able to voice their opinion. I do not think that people should say this is wrong I want to change it, when it really is no business of theirs, and that is my opinion. Kisha invited opinions. The show in question invited vendors but not opinions. Sure you can tell them your opinion, but do not expect them to change policy just because of your quite possibly, in my opinion, over presumptuous say so. And of course, you can try to make suggestions and seek opinions to improve a show, but I ask you is that what Kisha was doing? Now you may think that Kisha was just seeking opinions. I beg to differ. Of course she says, and I quote again:

“I am just looking for some oppinions (I'm sure I'll get some good ones”

Which in a later post, is seemingly contradicted by another of her own statements, and I quote: “I would like to change some of the questionable herp practices that I have noticed on this side of the country.”

That second quote, she apparently contradicts, in yet another subsequent post on the same thread: “The reason I posted was to find out if I even had a right to be annoyed. I'm not looking to change someones show outright.”

Then on the BOI she posts the following, and as I understand it, on basically the same issue involving the same show: "I now realize that the show started small, but mabey policies should change with the growing show."

So which is it. Was she “just” seeking opinions, was she trying to make things better (and for whom), was she annoyed, was she seeking to change questionable herp practices, which was it? I am confused as to which it was, and wonder how it is after you read all of her posts, that you can be so certain.

She possibly got upset that I used the word “crusade” to describe what I believed she was doing. My purpose was not to get her upset, but to describe, what in my opinion, seemed to be her style of approaching this issue. She went back and forth, in my opinion, as to exactly what she was doing as seen in the quotes above and in other statements she made. Then she says “campaign” would be a better word to describe what she was doing. She then in essence, if I understood correctly, compares by way of example both herself and her cause to that of Rosa Parks. She also made what I believe were quite racially inflammatory statements saying in essence that if ‘Ms. Parks had not stood up against the white folks…’. I did not know that all white folks were segregationists or racists at the time Rosa Parks stood up for her rights, or at any time. In fact I seem to remember that thousands, no tens of thousands of so called “white folks” died in the Civil War fighting for the Emancipation Proclamation and the freedom of the slaves. I think (my opinion again) such a statement about Rosa Parks was totally uncalled for. I wonder why a ‘European American versus African American’ issue was brought up in a discussion about how a herp show is run? I wonder why such a comparison was made; that of Rosa Parks issues to Kisha's issues about herp shows? It truly befuddles me. I also feel it belittles the memory of a great woman such as Rosa Parks to have such an example given in this context. Well, after reading the stuff about Rosa Parks, and before thinking about it all too seriously, as I have since done; I then said something to the effect that 'I now think that crusade was too mild a word' and that “movement” fits it much better. What with the memory of Ms. Parks and the civil rights movement being brought up and compared to her own cause I thoought I would have a bit of fun with my new word. I did this sort of tongue in cheek, no offense was meant. Nonetheless I am now quite serious when I say, that comparison really troubles me. It seems really inappropriate in my opinion. Fred, maybe you can tell me how it was appropriate, and then explain how my use of the word ‘crusade’ was inappropriate. I just do not get it, and I am not being one bit sarcastic, I mean it.

In my opinion, I think it was pretty obvious from her own statements that Kisha was indeed seeking change, liberal if not radical change for this show. I further believe, from what I can make out, that she may have sought this change because the practices allowed by the promoter were not in accordance with shows she was used to wherein the shows was geared toward vendor only sales. I also believe she may possibly have gotten mad at the promoter who basically told her ‘so what, not a problem’, because that vendor did not change things in her favor (that is just my opinion based on what I understood from her posts).

My bottom line is this: In my opinion, you can have one, you can have the other, you can attend one or the other or even both; but you do not need to squash the whole ideal behind the way a show is run simply because you do not like how it is done. That ideal as explained was to promote small time sales and trades. If that ideal is yet part of this show, it is not unethical, it is not wrong. Borrowing from a somewhat famous and comical American: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it – so, in my opinion, why try to fix it? Sure you can complain, but when the promoter basically in essence says: ‘it has never been a problem’, and ‘so what’ – well, in the words of Sister Walter Phillip: Tough Noogies!

As for the rest of your post Fred, you seemed it necessary to write my name in caps a few times, why I don’t know. I know my own name, and I think others could easily figure out to whom you were referring. You also tell Kisha to ignore hecklers. Who was heckling? She asked for opinions. She got them. She can disagree with them, as I can disagree with hers, as can you voice your own opinion. That is the purpose of a forum at least in part. From what I have seen, even though we disagree on the initial question, Kisha seems to understand this better than you. If you do not like my opinions, then feel free to post your own; but Fred, if you have a problem with me posting my opinions - well, just see the last two words of the preceding paragraph.
Best regards,
Glenn Bartley

 

[Fred Albury]

You MUST be a CHARGER fan..........

Glenn,

I will agree with you that for her to use the image of Rosa parks is demeaning, especially to myself as an African American.


Glenn, your post is long and ardous, but I noticed that you say you have a "right" to your opinion. Fine, then that means I have a "right" to mine, and if you donk like it(in your words...TOUGH NOODLES)


LMSABAO,

Fred Albury
AZTEC REPTILES

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Fred,

Did I misunderstand you and write most of that for nothing, oh boy! I thought you had a problem with me giving my opinion, and thought that you believed I felt the same about Kisha. I am really all for people stating their opinions. I don't care who diagrees with my opinion, that is what makes the forums fun and interesting. If we all agreed it would be boring, don't you think? I may disagree with you, but so what, we disagree with one another now, and agree at other times. Talk to you later.

Best regards,
Glenn

and yes it was rather arduous to write too

 

[Kisha]

I didn't mean to offend anyone whith the Rosa Parks example in my previous post. I in no way meant to compare my situation directly with that situation, I used it as an obvious over statement of a person questioning a practice that they thought was wrong. Examples of ideas are sometimes more effective the more overstated they are. I thought it would be a powerfull and meaningful image, I was not trying to belittle the cause or offend anyone. Sorry.

I agree with you Glen that it may not be my place to try to change this show. However, I would persue this matter if I had gotten opinions from vendors that go to this show that agreed with mine. Since I didn't, it seems that others are ok with the status quo and I will just go on avoiding this show and take my business elsewhere.

Thank you all for your thoughts, for or against. I still disagree with the show's pollicies, but I guess I'll leave it at that.

Kisha

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

However, I would persue this matter if I had gotten opinions from vendors that go to this show that agreed with mine.

Just to play the devils advocate here, have you given any thought to the patrons of that show? Not just the 10 or 15 that actually have something to carry in and that have you all upset, but the 1000's that go monthly. Maybe that's one of the few reason many of them attend. Or is it simply just for the vendors conveniences? How can a trade take place with out the ability to carry in an animal? After all it's clearly stated on the site "* Live Reptiles & Equipment * Buy - Sell - Trade. *"

The promoter can run the show any way they see fit. Because they allow individuals with animals in the show does not make them unethical or wrong. It simply means you don't agree with it.

 

[evansnakes]

1) If you think that at the shows that state "no outside animals" they stick to that policy you are crazy. I have been a vendor at nearly every one of the largest shows and I will tell you what, if you are a vendor people show up with animals, you walk over and tell the show staff that they are with you or have brought the animals for you and they are in. It is a joke. At my show we have a best in class/best in show contest and vendors are bringing in animals that they would not take to a show or remove from their house normally. Because of that I make it a point to 100% not allow animals in, period.

2) The whole Rosa Parks thing is so funny. If anyone has ever heard her speak, (I have as she has been here in Detroit a million times), she will tell you that she was protesting nothing and not trying to do or start anything. She was just tired and her feet hurt. She thinks it is strange that her being tired and just not wanting to move has been made into a huge deal with her starting a movement and being a hero. So I guess if you compare yourself or others to her, you are saying that person is a sad and ironic unintentional hero who was just being tired and lazy and turned out to inspire others who did not understand what was happening.

Evan Stahl

 

[Glenn Bartley]

I too have heard her speak, she was apparently pretty humble like that; but I once her her speak too with a great deal of pride in her voice about what followed her actions. She was just a person doing what she should have been allowed to do in the first place, man I know how good a seat can be when the old hoofers are sore.

 

[evansnakes]

A great concept that unfortunately died long before it's time used to work at the Indianapolis Reptile show run by Brian Hahn. After being a monthly vendor at the show for years, I began to get really upset because people would come in and walk around with a quantity of animals and try to sell them to the public without having a table. I spoke at length to Brian about it. The solution that he came up with was to put all entering animals into a small coat check like room at the door as people came in. They could then go around and try to sell or trade the animals to vendors but not the public as the only way the animal could go into the show would be if a vendor bought or traded for it. If not the owner could take it back out. This went on for several years and worked great. Brian stopped doing it a while back. I'm not sure why. It is a solid idea on how to handle the problem. Evan Stahl