Bad Guy ReptMart - Diseased Dragon

[mymoa]

I bought a Bearded Dragon baby from Reptmart which was delivered on 4/27/14.
Jamie was very nice on the phone. She answered my questions and was very polite.

I asked for a pic of my dragon before it shipped and noted it wasn't as bright red as I asked for. I then asked if it had any toe or tail nips and the first one they showed me did. Jamie noted also that was not the one she meant to send me. So I would have gotten an injured dragon without full disclosure. I know most breeders also take money off the price for that.

I also asked Jamie if they test for Atadenovirus and she checked and said they dont test each animal they do enclosure swabs, but she couldn't tell me if he had been in a group checked.

I got the Dragon on a Tuesday and took him to the vet the next Saturday. He hadn't eaten since I got him but wasn't losing weight. He was very dehydrated though. I was told after the fecal float that he had a very serious case of Coccidia. In fact in a rating the vets give from 1 to 4+ in levels he was over a 4+. She said she hadn't seen one with that high a level.

Earlier tonight I received an email response from Jamie asking me to send information about him from the medical records about the Coccidia for her to run by her animal manager. This was all before the positive ADV result. I have spent around $400 for his medical bills and supplements, that's not counting the steam cleaner I bout to kill the Coccidia.

I will await to see what they do. I only used them because of the good guy ratings I read. I'm very disappointing and devastated that I have bought a wonderful dragon who is hanging on by a thread. He hasn't eaten since he's been here so I have had to start him on a liquid diet and worse yet the antibiotic he's on can take away his appetite and dehydrate him.

Like I said I reserve final judgement until I see how this is resolved. I'm not sure what would make this right. I just don't want others getting sick dragons.

Jacquelyn Warr-Williams
New Jersey

 

[mymoa]

ReptMart's unacceptable solution

So I get an email reply from Jaime and all they will do is refund me the price of the dragon after I ship him back. they say they don't pay for medical costs. She said if I thought something was wrong I should have returned him! How could I have know that anything was wrong until I had him checked out. Not eating for a few days (which I notified her of immediately) is not a reason for return. An I just found out about the Atadenovirus last night as I had the fecal done the day I took him to the vet but the results just came back yesterday.
I cant believe this is the best they can do. She is sending me a box, which I should get next week to send him back to them for the refund.

I spoke to my herp vet and she said with how small he is and how sick he is she said if he was hers she would send him back. I am devastated about this and angry that I am not only out the price of him, and the vet bills, but also the $400 for the set up. I can't use that for another dragon I don't care how much I bleach and steam clean it. I would never take that risk.

My vet told me to check the state laws about sick animals to see what recourse I may have. I have to check to see which would apply NJ where I am or where ReptMart is.

Any suggestions? I can barely stand the thought of shipping him back and my vet said they may just try to see him to someone else.

Jacquelyn Warr-Williams
New Jersey

 

[laterob]

Did she suggest you take him in when you notified her that he wasn't eating? Did you get a response at all?

 

[SoCalAce]

It seems people are staying away from your post because you're in an unfortunate situation, and people probably don't like to talk about the amount of baby beardeds that die each year in the attempt to supply the nation. Bearded Dragons are being produced by the hundreds of thousands. It is nearly impossible to be completely "disease free" as a retailer such as Reptmart because they have different animals coming through all the time, and the "quarantine" process just isn't practical. I can't speak to their overall husbandry, but I can tell you if their slogan is "1000's of animals for sale" it's far from perfect. Unfortunately the best you can ever expect in this situation is a refund or a free replacement animal.


As far as your set up is concerned, a normal amount of sterilization will be sufficient. If you clean it thoroughly and leave it empty for a few weeks, it will be fine.

 

[mymoa]

Did she suggest you take him in when you notified her that he wasn't eating? Did you get a response at all?

No when I told her right away about the not eating issue we initially talked about stress and my setup (which was fine). I scheduled a Dr appt as soon as I knew I was getting him as I always have my animals checked out.

She never mentioned that I take him in. She just asked me for the specs of my setup which I had already sent them pics of when I ordered him. (I was excited and wanted them to know where he was going).

I resent pics and a description of what his living situation. I even asked what they had been feeding him so I could duplicate that. My boys eat mixed greens, hornworms, Phoenix worms, and dubias. She said he was eating crickets so I eve went out and bought some.

 

[mymoa]

The elephant in the room

It seems people are staying away from your post because you're in an unfortunate situation, and people probably don't like to talk about the amount of baby beardeds that die each year in the attempt to supply the nation. Bearded Dragons are being produced by the hundreds of thousands. It is nearly impossible to be completely "disease free" as a retailer such as Reptmart because they have different animals coming through all the time, and the "quarantine" process just isn't practical. I can't speak to their overall husbandry, but I can tell you if their slogan is "1000's of animals for sale" it's far from perfect. Unfortunately the best you can ever expect in this situation is a refund or a free replacement animal.


As far as your set up is concerned, a normal amount of sterilization will be sufficient. If you clean it thoroughly and leave it empty for a few weeks, it will be fine.

I know there is a lot of controversy about this issue. My deal is what should happen next. I not sure it acceptable to say pretty much, sucks to be you, the virus is common send him back and we'll refund you. This is not a piece of furniture. I got attached to him when I saw his first picture. I get that it's common. That's why I had him tested. That's why I paid $200 each to get my other boys tested at U of Florida to confirm their status. I already have a positive boy I had to stress and worry over as well as put out a lot of money in vet bills, so it's not like I don't know what it's like. I didn't find out about my other boy's status until I had had him for about a month and he came from Petsmart so the 14 day period we have here in NJ had passed..

I really wouldn't take a replacement animal from them as it would have to be tested on their end and when I got him.

My thing is simple if I'm being forced to play dragon roulette it has to work both ways, I buy him he's negative I win, I buy him he's positive you lose and pay the vet bills for the initial visit.

I'm not trying to start up the testing flame wars again I just want compensation when it's due.

Jacquelyn Warr-Williams

 

[laterob]

I think if you want a health guarantee, you'll have to go with smaller breeders. I offer 30-day health; people who sell 1000's of animals a year don't. SoCalAce nailed it (as usual).

It seems to me that you should keep the little guy. You've already got a lot invested in him, and I am certain that he stands a better chance in your care than he does if you send him back.

Look, some people take a $10 dog and get 1000's of dollars of work done on him. Some people have more expensive animals and neglect them. Most people lie somewhere in the middle. Clearly, you lie nearer the first case (and that's admirable). You can't really expect ReptMart or whatever to follow your practices; if they did, they wouldn't be able to sell $10 dragons (or whatever).

It DOES suck that they asked you to send the lab report...seems like they are trying to avoid paying for testing themselves. If that's true, that's just wrong.

Lots of breeders here care for animals the way you do; next time ask about a health guarantee before you purchase.

 

[EXCLUSIVELY EXOTICS]

Sorry this happened to you. I ordered from them and had a good experience but I did not order a beardie. Unfortunately this is true about animals offered for sale in mass quantities. Rob I see your point with small breeders, more attention, better quality but with that being said I doubt any breeder will give you more than what youve paid for the animal for medical bills. Its unfortunate but its the same way with dogs etc. Breeders will pay up to the value of the animal for medical expenses.
As far as him going back im sure people try everything to get something for free and ik sure its their policy.
I think he needs to stay with you. Maybe call them, possibly they will make an exception for the animal to stay with you, but with that beng said a post like this early on doesnt make ppl happy

 

[mymoa]

pet lemon laws

Here is what ReptMart Claims
http://reptmart.com/t-about.aspx

from their website:

"About ReptMart.com

ReptMart was born in 2009 from Reptile Industries, a world-class reptile breeding company founded and run by expert breeders who have been in the reptile business for over 30 years. At Reptile Industries, we have strived to produce the absolute highest quality animals through our exceptional care practices and our state-of-the-art breeding facility. We felt that it was time someone put that same effort into a one-stop reptile and supply store so we started ReptMart.

ReptMart was created for the purpose of providing a single source for all your reptile needs. We believe that you should be able to find high quality animals and supplies at great prices from a single location, and that is what we set out to accomplish. We provide a wide range of husbandry supplies including terrariums and enclosures, substrates and beddings, hides and houses, lighting and fixtures, heating and monitoring devices, vitamin and minerals, and much more. Our price-match guarantee helps ensure that our supplies are priced so that you can get the most for your pets. In addition, we provide a variety of the highest quality reptiles and amphibians available.

While most reptile and supply companies purchase their reptiles and amphibians from outside sources and then resell them, we don’t think you should have to sacrifice quality in order to have access to a wide range of animals and products. We have the benefit of producing most of our animals in house so that we can send them straight to you from one of the world’s premier breeding facilities. This allows us to provide the absolute highest quality animals without their health or price suffering as they change hands multiple times before coming to you.

Whether you’re looking to purchase your first reptile and its complete setup or just looking to buy new bulbs for a pet you already have, at ReptMart, you can be sure you’ll get the best quality and best price."

Highest Quality animals? Exceptional Care? State of the art breeding facility?

I looked up the pet lemon laws from the American Veterinary Medical Association:

https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/pet-lemon-laws.aspx

I live in Jersey the laws are serious here. You can see the info pulled from the site linked above:

New Jersey Law:

14 days if animal becomes sick or dies of a non-congenital condition

6 months for congenital or hereditary defects

If death occurs:

Refund of purchase price of animal

Replacement plus the cost of veterinary fees

If the animal does not die:

Replacement plus the cost of veterinary fees

Refund of purchase price plus the cost of veterinary fees

Reimbursement of veterinary fees incurred and future veterinary fees to be incurred in attempting to cure the animal



Florida Laws:

14 days for illness, contagious or infectious disease

1 year for congenital or hereditary defects

1 year for misrepresentation of breed, sex, or health of animal

1. Replacement plus reimbursement for veterinary expenses (directly related to examination and certification) up to the purchase price

2. Refund plus reimbursement for veterinary expenses (directly related to examination and certification) up to the purchase price

3. Reimbursement of veterinary expenses to treat the dog up to the purchase price of the dog

If Jersey laws apply it sort if sucks to be them. If Florida law applies I still get the refund and the bills paid up to the cost of the animal. (He cost around $100)


Step up and do what your mission statement says. I asked about ADV testing and was told they did random spot enclosure testing but like I said before, couldn't confirm that he's been in a group tested. For a "in house Breeder" they couldn't even give me a hatch date.

Jacquelyn Warr-Williams

 

[mymoa]

Sorry this happened to you. I ordered from them and had a good experience but I did not order a beardie. Unfortunately this is true about animals offered for sale in mass quantities. Rob I see your point with small breeders, more attention, better quality but with that being said I doubt any breeder will give you more than what youve paid for the animal for medical bills. Its unfortunate but its the same way with dogs etc. Breeders will pay up to the value of the animal for medical expenses.
As far as him going back im sure people try everything to get something for free and ik sure its their policy.
I think he needs to stay with you. Maybe call them, possibly they will make an exception for the animal to stay with you, but with that beng said a post like this early on doesnt make ppl happy

I gave the benefit of the doubt but they made it clear by email that the only deal they would do was a refund of the animal. I waited until they had all 6 pages of the medical chart info and test results before getting this ugly.

I feel like I did my research and got screwed. I even looked them up on the BBB website to see if there were complaints. i found nothing but glowing reports. That's why I've gone this route. I see a lot of reviews for snakes so maybe they do better with them, but stand to the standards you set.

Jacquelyn Warr-Williams

 

[mymoa]

I think if you want a health guarantee, you'll have to go with smaller breeders. I offer 30-day health; people who sell 1000's of animals a year don't. SoCalAce nailed it (as usual).

It seems to me that you should keep the little guy. You've already got a lot invested in him, and I am certain that he stands a better chance in your care than he does if you send him back.

Look, some people take a $10 dog and get 1000's of dollars of work done on him. Some people have more expensive animals and neglect them. Most people lie somewhere in the middle. Clearly, you lie nearer the first case (and that's admirable). You can't really expect ReptMart or whatever to follow your practices; if they did, they wouldn't be able to sell $10 dragons (or whatever).


It DOES suck that they asked you to send the lab report...seems like they are trying to avoid paying for testing themselves. If that's true, that's just wrong.

Lots of breeders here care for animals the way you do; next time ask about a health guarantee before you purchase.

The dragon (Kacey) was around $150 with shipping. I asked about the testing up front and they told me they did random enclosure testing. You can see the rest of my rant below! it's not just a handshake and a nod when you have state law dictating sick animal purchases. I just want them to do the right thing and warn beardie buyers beware. Like I said they may do snakes well but my baby not so much. I look at him and try to imagine if I could send him back. I don't mind the work of raising a baby, but its a whole other thing with the dangerously high levels of Coccidia, the toll the antibiotics take especially on suppressing the appetite of an already not eating dragon.

Jacquelyn Warr-Williams

Here he is if the attachment works

 

[laterob]

Well, you've argued for and against sending him back. You've said you didn't know what would 'make this right', you've said you wanted them to pay for testing, and you've said you want them to warn potential customers.

Are you really seeking input or are you seeking arguments?

 

[laterob]

After a 2-minute search, I am under the impression that the New Jersey Pet Protection Act (or whatever) applies to cats and dogs. Further, I don't know if/how it applies to out-of-state vendors.

I wish you luck, don't get me wrong, but legal pursuit, in my opinion, won't work. Hopefully others will chime in regarding that avenue.

 

[mymoa]

What do I want?

Well, you've argued for and against sending him back. You've said you didn't know what would 'make this right', you've said you wanted them to pay for testing, and you've said you want them to warn potential customers.

Are you really seeking input or are you seeking arguments?

No I'm not trying to start an argument. I sound back and forth about sending him back because I am conflicted. He's cute and helpless but its not even the ADV as much as it is the Coccidia. If the levels weren't through the roof I would just suck it up and keep him. In a scale of 1-4+ she said he's over a 4+ in the Coccidia infection.

I cant have my other boys get sick as I have one clean one and one with ADV. Ive been able to keep from spreading the ADV.

I think that even though he may have a chance with me I cant risk the Coccidia with my others and know that I cant keep the extremely sterile conditions needed to abate that. I will send him back but I did expect some of the medical to be covered. Not necessarily all but an offer of some would be nice.

I also did want to put it out there because like I said I have not heard of them having a bad review but I would like to warn Beardie buyers. Just stand up to the mission statement you make.

There that is my decision but like I said a bit of the medical cost would have been nice. even if it was like Florida law says up to the price of the Animal.

I don't like that my first real posting is negative especially with a place that has such a good track record. I don't want to be seen as that vindictive B****.

I really need to go and write the review of RioReptiles as I have been meaning to do because the baby I got from them was negative and is thriving.

Ok end of ranting it's a done deal not like I would wish but it is what it is.

Jacquelyn Warr-Williams.

 

[mymoa]

And I would NEVER expect them to let people know or give a warning. I just wanted to put it out there what I went through.

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

After a 2-minute search, I am under the impression that the New Jersey Pet Protection Act (or whatever) applies to cats and dogs.

As does the Florida one.

 

[misthold]

No one wants this, but If they DID in a document state they do test.. so should not be positive, then they are responsible at least for that.. HOEWEVER within their terms of service, if they don't refund testing only the cost of the animal and require return? is what you agreed on..

They are sending a package so you don't even have to incur the cost of shipping as part of the refund?? is that correct? wow.. a lot of places state not responsible for shipping.. to or back..


Animals are NOT a appliance, they can hide, be sick have some issue hidden for some time.. that is the point.. why it is SO important to read understand and know what is a companies TOS.. what hey do to ensure free of X and what they do if for what ever reason X hits the fan..

unless I am mistaken.. Reptile industry standard is replacement or refund but only when proof of dead, or only upon return is pretty common??

As for lemon laws, or pet protection acts.. they where written to give a buyer at least the protection to keep said animal and get refunded up to the cost of the animal, many places got away with the no liability with the no return no refund.. however they also protect the seller to not be responsible for medical expenses beyond the price of the animal.. may not be written for reptiles but could be a example..
buy a dog/cat needs $5000 in medical care, now you can at least get your purchased price back without having to send the animal back.. but you cannot get the entire cost.. just up to the cost of the animal.. (shipping is NOT included) if you go to court..


So what would you feel is a good resolution? for this situation?

 

[MissFirefly]

No one wants this, but If they DID in a document state they do test.. so should not be positive, then they are responsible at least for that.. HOEWEVER within their terms of service, if they don't refund testing only the cost of the animal and require return? is what you agreed on..

They are sending a package so you don't even have to incur the cost of shipping as part of the refund?? is that correct? wow.. a lot of places state not responsible for shipping.. to or back..


Animals are NOT a appliance, they can hide, be sick have some issue hidden for some time.. that is the point.. why it is SO important to read understand and know what is a companies TOS.. what hey do to ensure free of X and what they do if for what ever reason X hits the fan..

unless I am mistaken.. Reptile industry standard is replacement or refund but only when proof of dead, or only upon return is pretty common??

As for lemon laws, or pet protection acts.. they where written to give a buyer at least the protection to keep said animal and get refunded up to the cost of the animal, many places got away with the no liability with the no return no refund.. however they also protect the seller to not be responsible for medical expenses beyond the price of the animal.. may not be written for reptiles but could be a example..
buy a dog/cat needs $5000 in medical care, now you can at least get your purchased price back without having to send the animal back.. but you cannot get the entire cost.. just up to the cost of the animal.. (shipping is NOT included) if you go to court..


So what would you feel is a good resolution? for this situation?

As mentioned here, reptiles are very apt at hiding illness (it serves to protect them in the wild where predators would be more likely to strike knowing they are weakened) so there is a chance that ReptMart really didn't know this animal was sick and from what I can gather never made claims that this beardie was tested for what you found.

Now, I am not saying that this situation isn't a pleasant one and I would also be upset if I could a dragon loaded with coccidia but ReptMart isn't obligated to do anything further aside from offering you a refund which they have done.

If you want an animal that has been individually tested for adeno then you may have to pay for that testing yourself prior to purchase as I can't think of any breeder who tests every one of their animals as it would be cost inefficient especially for a mass breeder such as ReptMart.

This type of situation is why I often tell people to go with small time breeders over mass/large scale breeders. Sorry that you had to learn the hard way.

 

[EdwardK]

Detecting coccidians in a fecal can be very hit or miss in any case. An coccidia infection maybe undetected through one or more fecal checks only to show up after a major stressor reduces the immunocompetence of the animal.

It does suck that you got an animal with a coccidia infection but it is entirely possible that the animal was asymptomatic when it was shipped to you, and the stress of the shipping and acclimating to a new enclosure allowed the infection to get out of hand. Coccidia infections are often common in bearded dragons (see the link below)

I'm not sure what your vet suggested to use to treat the animal but paramomycin is a good drug for treatment (See http://www.jherpmedsurg.com/doi/abs/10.5818/1529-9651-21.1.10)

Some comments

Ed

 

[JColt]

Can you post the Vet bill? $400.00 is extremely high. I just took my BRB in for mouth infection due to teeth. Pulled 4 teeth, cleaned mouth, antibiotics and a check up 2 weeks later cost me under $120.00