Respiratory virus in ball pythons...

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Would this type be transferrable to humans thru a bite similiar to other forms of these rabies viruses?

I don't have info on that yet, that is one of the things we will have to test for once we get the definite answer. We still haven't gotten an absolute determination that that is what this is -- right now, this is what they think it is. The bodies are there getting samples taken and tested to see if it matches or not.

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

It is definitely a scary thing. Lily is still hanging in there somehow...every day that she makes it through, should give her a better chance at surviving. Each injection she can get is going to help her fight off the secondary infection and make her stronger to fight the virus. If she survives this, she is going to be my miracle snake.

Jen, I'm so sorry to hear of this! My sis & I are praying for Lily's recovery... sorry for your loss of your other snakes & I hope that the Vet finds some useful info out of it all.

 

[KelliH]

Please re-read what I said. The virologist at the lab in Florida is the one that said they have documented cases of it existing in collections in Texas, NOT my vet. He was reiterating what she informed him on the phone. She will not give us names or locations -- it goes against their privacy policies. The only thing she can do (or he, I don't know which) is match samples from my snakes to samples from the snakes they tested in Texas to determine if it is a match for the same strain of virus.

OK, excuse me, your virologist. Your statement made it sound as if it is so prevalent in Texas (gee, that's where the het clown came from) that I felt I needed to clear it up for everyone that this virus is everywhere, and I doubt more prevalent in Texas. There would be no need to show names but locations wouldn't identify anyone, would they?

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

The virologist is not MY virologist -- he/she is one at an independent lab that Dr. Gordon chose to have analyze the samples. They simply said that they have documented it in various collections in Texas. It may very well be all over the U.S., but that is not what they have found -- they found it in Texas.

As for releasing locations, I don't have a clue. That is the lab's policy, and what he/she specifically stated they would not release. I don't have any say on that. I specifically asked Dr. Gordon to ask if we could have at least locations, but they said no, they cannot release any identifying information. Considering that snake breeding is a pretty small world, I'm guessing that it would be "identifying" if they said a collection in like...Copperas Cove, Texas had it. That's a small, dinky town -- so any known breeder in it would be the first suspect. Thus the reason they don't release locations.

Why did I say "gee, that's where the het clown came from"? Because when they said they documented it in Texas, I found it interesting that the carrier snake in question came from Texas, and I was the only one who knew that -- I had never said anything to my vet, the clinics, the labs, etc. about who I bought the snake from or where it came from. So they weren't biased or anything.

I don't get why you're being so derogatory when you're the one who initially sparked the possibility of it being viral in the first place -- then when I asked my vet after reading your post, he said "yep" because that is the conclusion that was on the path reports. So it isn't like I leaned him that way or something -- he had already figured it out on his own. You also aren't the only one that told me about various breeders having it. I have been getting a lot of messages saying this. That is scary as hell if you ask me. Makes me want to deal with one person, and one person only.

 

[shrap]

I dont know, I think locations can be very good identifiers. Or at the very least could set off the rumor mill and unjustly harm someone's good name.

 

[varnyard]

OK, I have a problem here as well, Jen you claim or your vet claims it is a virus that has airborne transmission is like or related to Rabies. How can this be compared to Rabies? Rabies is not transmitted through the air, but rather through infected secretions (saliva) and (usually through the bite of a rabid animal). It is caused from the bite of an animal with the rabies virus, and is present in the saliva of infected animals, and is transmitted not by the air, the virus spreads to the central nervous system and causes inflammation in the brain (acute encephalitis). The virus that you are claiming your animals have is transfered through airborne transmission, it also has much different symptoms.

So why did you compare this virus to Rabies? And why is the claim being made that this virus is related to Rabies?

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Yet another case of people not comprehending the things they are reading, then I have to go repeat it yet again...

The first necropsy and pathology a few weeks ago determined this was likely viral, and my vet felt that it was likely airborne at that time. Then, just this week, the virologist at the lab told him that it sounded like a rhabdovirus based on everything he described, which is related to rabies...not IS rabies, but related to. He must have thrown the airborne idea out the window when talking to the virologist, I don't know -- I wasn't there. Thus, he suggested this information to me, that is what he currently believes we may be looking at. We will be finding out what exactly the pathogen is within the coming weeks.

These were two separate opinions made at two separate times and are not related. One came before the other. This is how a diagnosis is made -- thoughts and determinations evolve as new things are explored.

 

[KelliH]

I don't get why you're being so derogatory when you're the one who initially sparked the possibility of it being viral in the first place

Jen, I apologize if I seem like I am being derogatory. I really am sorry, I don't mean to come across that way, I just tend to be blunt sometimes. I just don't want folks to get the idea that this is most prevalent in Texas. It's all over the country and I do agree that people should be talking about it and what we as a community can do to eradicate it. The sad fact of the matter is that in cases such as this one, people would rather keep quiet about it and stick animals in the freezer rather than be more proactive. Ain't the reptile business great?

 

[Cat_72]

Bobby, rabies is but one of a host of viruses that are grouped into the family Rhabdoviridae. These can cause a broad range of symptoms and affect a wide variety of hosts (including mammals, humans, plants, insects, and fish), as well as having somewhat different methods of transmission. Granted, I do not believe any are "airborne" (but as Jen said, that was an early initial thought), some are known to be transmitted through things such as fecal matter, urine, saliva, sexual fluids, and by insect vectors. Some can even survive for a period of time in water that has been tainted by any of these contaminated fluids.

Overly simplified.....a corn snake is in the colubrid family, as are hognose snakes. If you can say that all rhabdoviruses are just like rabies, that would be the same as saying that a corn snake must have all of the same characteristics as a hognose, since they are in the same family. See what I'm saying?

 

[snake5007]

Then, just this week, the virologist at the lab told him that it sounded like a rhabdovirus based on everything he described, which is related to rabies...not IS rabies, but related to.

Bobby asked why you're vet thinks this virus is related to rabies, Jen. He also asked why it's being compared to rabies and considering none of your snakes were bitten by something with rabies, i can see his point.

 

[Cat_72]

Bobby asked why you're vet thinks this virus is related to rabies, Jen. He also asked why it's being compared to rabies and considering none of your snakes were bitten by something with rabies, i can see his point.

Read the post I just made, above yours...........

 

[snake5007]

Here's a link to a similar thread:http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58793


I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but it's similar.

 

[snake5007]

Read the post I just made, above yours...........

I think we were typing at the same time. I also read into it the same way that Bobby did.

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

Well, I understand what the Vet is doing... going into uncharted territory here. I'm sure certain ideas will evolve as more information is discovered. It's more of a relief that the virus not be airbourne... I seriously hope that proves to be the case. That would mean separate room/building quarantine, maintaining your closed collection before caring for the Quarantine animals & a thorough wash/disinfect for the keeper may work.

Once we know how it is passed, we'll have a better understanding on how to contain it. Jen thanks for sharing about this.

As for attempting to determine "safe zones" I hope folks don't seriously think that this can be done. The fact that this has been around for awhile & that not all folks are at full disclosure when it's their collection... the community as a whole needs to take precaution. Be though with quarantine & sanitation...

All the Best- Deb

 

[janeothejungle]

Alright

I generally try and mind my own business, but I feel there is an awful lot of BS floating around the various forums at the moment. So I will attempt to clarify for the few rational humans that are floating around the place.

The reality is that Rhabdoviruses (all 200+ of them, why is rabies an acceptable comparison?) have been around for a fairly long time. And yes, for those who are offended that Texas keeps getting brought up, that is where they were found originally in the US in a study that showed snake populations had a relationship to the virus. (see citation1 below). This is important, because knowing where a virus came from allows you to look at the conditions that fostered the original form. However, I'll also point out that we have also seen reptiles imported from various parts of the world that have also had forms of the virus (as far back as 20 years ago). I'll post that abstract below, as well.

Why does everyone keep expecting Jen to know something about the virus, when even the pathologists are still struggling to understand rhabdo. As a farther note, there has been a case of an airborne rhabdo, but it was written off as an anomaly since it was in a cave in texas where bats were and had flourished for a very long time. Otherwise airborne transmission is very unlikely.


Abstract 1 (for you science geeks like me) From Arch. Virol. 1979

Viruses isolated from reptiles: identification of three new members of the family Rhabdoviridae.
Monath TP, Cropp CB, Frazier CL, Murphy FA, Whitfield SG.

The growth of four viruses isolated from lizards in Brazil (Marco, Chaco, and Timbo viruses) and Australia (Almpiwar virus) was studied in a variety of continuous cell lines of mammalian, reptilian, amphibian, and piscine origin. Although replication was found in certain cell lines derived from the coldblooded species, cytopathic effect (CPE) was absent or minimal and growth was less than or equal to that in mammalian cells. Those observations appear to limit the value of poikilothermic cells for primary isolation of viruses from field-collected, cold-blooded vertebrates or arthropods that feed upon them. The four reptilian viruses were found to be naturally occurring temperature sensitive agents, with optima for growth of approximately 30 degrees C. Electron microscope studies showed three of the viruses (Marco, Chaco, and Timbo) to be new members of the family Rhabdoviridae. Marco virus particles were conically shaped and resembled bovine ephemeral fever virus, and two lyssaviruses (Kotonkan and Obodhiang). Chaco and Timbo viruses were cylindrical viruses resembling other rhabdoviruses with particle lengths longer than the prototype VSV. No serologic relationships were found in cross complement fixation tests between these viruses, Marco virus, and 34 other rhabdoviruses.

PMID: 90494 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Citation 1

the PDF is too big to attach, so here's another abstract....

J Gen. Virol. 1986

Identification and characterization of Bahia Grande, Reed Ranch and Muir Springs viruses, related members of the family Rhabdoviridae with widespread distribution in the United States.
Kerschner JH, Calisher CH, Vorndam AV, Francy DB.

Sixteen virus isolates with similar biological characteristics were obtained from salt-marsh mosquitoes collected in south Texas in 1974. When compared antigenically, these and 13 other isolates from mosquitoes collected between 1972 and 1979 in west Texas, New Mexico, Louisiana, Colorado and North Dakota were shown to be related but not identical. Three distinct serotypes were determined: Bahia Grande (prototype strain TB4-1054), Reed Ranch (TB4-222) and Muir Springs (76V-23524). When examined by electron microscopy, these three viruses were shown to be rhabdoviruses. Structural analysis of the prototype strain of Bahia Grande virus from Texas revealed five proteins. Comparative oligonucleotide fingerprint maps showed 51 to 86% sharing of the large oligonucleotides between Bahia Grande virus (strain TB4-1054) and 11 other antigenically related isolates but not with Muir Springs virus (strain 76V-23524), an antigenically distinct isolate from mosquitoes collected in Colorado. A serological survey for antibody to Bahia Grande virus showed that humans, cattle, sheep, reptiles and wild mammals from south Texas had neutralizing antibodies to this virus.

PMID: 2872270 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And please, I beg you, resist the urge to pick out random phrases and shout A-HA if you have no idea what an oligonucleotide is, or you majored in liberal arts in school.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Kat, THANK YOU for posting some information. I'm printing all of that off for my vet -- odds are he'll know it or be able to find it, but just in case...it would be good to have it.

The post on that cornsnake forum about the ball python is EXACTLY what my snakes hit at the end stages. Bleeding from the lung, body swelling as their lung and kidneys became inflammed and hemorrhaged. I took a couple pictures of Amazon right before I tried to save her, and that is what she looked like, both her chest cavity and her kidneys:

Bobby, first off, I have to sincerely apologize for the first sentence in my reply to you. I have been extremely stressed out by this whole thing and it has left me very short-tempered and blunt towards people that do not deserve it. So I am sorry for being that rude to you.

As I mentioned in my post, the airborne theory was from the beginning. The rhabdovirus theory is most recent. My vet is not comparing this disease to rabies whatsoever -- what he said to me is that it sounds to be a rhabdovirus, which is related to rabies (meaning it is the family that rabies is part of). There are many different diseases within that category.

Kelli, I absolutely don't doubt that it is all over the U.S. -- especially with how many people aside from you have contacted me to tell me about so-and-so and another so-and-so who had this and kept it quiet. That just can't be done anymore. That isn't fair -- big breeder or small hobbyist, everyone deserves to have information about something that has the potential to wipe out their collection and the thousands of dollars they put into it.

The het G-stripe female passed away yesterday afternoon (12/14). I gave her her second injection the night before and she seemed to still be hanging in there...but I found her dead at about 1:30pm that afternoon. She is now frozen and waiting to be dropped off. That is the end of all the sick snakes -- so far, no others are showing symptoms and I hope it remains that way. Still no word on any test results, but I get the feeling these are not simple and may take a couple weeks.

 

[Cat_72]

I'm very sorry to hear that you've lost another animal, Jen. I was really hoping she'd pull through for you.

A couple of interesting articles I've found while doing some research....while both of these are types of rhabdovirus found in fish, I found them particularly interesting.

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/infectious_hematopoietic_necrosis.pdf

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/viral_hemorrhagic_septicemia.pdf

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

After reading all of those pages on Paramyxovirus, I am going to ask my vet to start doing the titers on the rest of my animals and perhaps try to get ahold of that Colombovac -- every case of someone using it proved successful, even though it is meant for birds. I want to try that if anyone else shows symptoms -- or if anyone comes back positive for the antibody levels suggesting infection.

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

Virology is at best a field unto itself. Those abstracts are a good read, but even an atmospheric physics major (with a minor in bio) like myself knows what an oligonucleotide is... even so I would be the last to say "A-ha". Too much still to be found out here.

Still, I am curious to know how this particular strain of rhabdovirus replicates along with other particulars. Sorry Jen to hear you lost another girl, was hoping she'd pull through for you.

 

[gardenmum]

Jen,
I have been reading your thread for the past few days and want to tell you how sorry I am for what you are going through. It is any herp owners nightmare. I think you are very couragious and responsible to put this on the open forum, as you well know, there are too may that would rather hide what is happening as opposed to letting it be known so others can benefit from what you will learn from this tragedy.

I am very sorry that your het G-stripe also succumed to whatever this is. I wish you the best. Keep your chin up, I know that has to be hard right now.

Best,
Dianne