Rian at Underground Reptiles BAD GUY

[g23armani]

Wanted to share a horrible experience I had purchasing an Egyptian Uromastyx from Underground Reptiles. I ended up paying about $600 for her and she had to be put to sleep. My name is Peter Ingoldsby. Here's the info:

WHAT HAPPENED:

I purchased an egyptian Uromastyx from Underground Reptiles the end of November, 2003. I was told she was in absolutely perfect health and I paid $310 for her to be shipped from Florida to my home in California. When she arrived she seemed to be in decent health but was not "perfect" as they said. She had an abrasion on her mouth and scarring on her back. Within an hour it was apparant that something was wrong with her front left arm as she could not walk on it. I contacted Underground Reptiles about the problem and they informed me she was walking perfectly fine when she left and something must have happened in transit. I was told that "they were animal lovers" and they would work with me to get her in health by splitting veterinary costs. I took her to the veterinarian ($60) and she was given an analgesic. I wrote Underground Reptiles and told them that if it was only a minor injury to not worry about the bill because I probably would have taken her to the vet anyway and the check-up itself was the bulk of the cost. I mentioned that if she did need further treatment I would like compensation. I let her try and acclimate and heal over the thanksgiving holiday but her arm was not getting better, in fact it was becoming increasingly swollen. I wrote Underground Reptiles informing them that I was going to take her in to get x-rays and would like to split veterinary costs as we had discussed over the phone. They did not respond. I took her in to her appointment and took an x-ray ($113) and she was given an oral anti-inflammatory. I again wrote Underground Reptiles to tell them the costs and informed them I could have the receipt faxed to them and or have my veterinarian speak with them if they needed proof of the total cost before refunding me half the amount. No reply. I then called Underground Reptiles and spoke with the owner. He proceeded to yell and get very defensive stating that I had the animal for too long, that he would not split veterinary costs and that I could send her back if I was not satisfied. At this point I was very upset with my purchase but did not feel right sending her back for a few reasons: (1) I had already spent almost $180 in veterinary bills plus would end up paying for $70 in non-refundable shipping and (2) I knew that Pebbles (the egyptian Uromastyx's name) would not receive the veterinary care she needed in their hands. Also, I rightfully felt goated into paying the large veterinary costs under the guise that they were willing to help before being told otherwise. The x-rays did not show any type of fracture but something was obviously wrong. I still had hope that she would come around. I consulted friends and other Uromastyx breeders for information regarding swollen limbs in reptiles and read anything I could on the internet that could be of some use in helping her. The possibilities at this point were most likely either a blood clot or septicemia. After another week of the swelling in her arm not subsiding (it had been 3 weeks at this point) I decided to take her into the veterinarian again in order to do a needle aspiration. The veterinarian found an unusual amount of white blood cells in the sample implying an infection. She was given oral antibiotics as well as pedialyte for hydration. The next morning I found her in horrible shape. She was unable to move her back limbs or tail; they were dried out and petrified. It was a shock that such a huge amount of damage could be done overnight.I rushed her to the vet one last time and was informed there was nothing I could do and had to have her euthanized. Probably cause of death was septicemia which had been worsened by the cold of shipping and ended up blocking the arteries that took blood to her lower half. I called Underground Reptiles to tell them what had happened, that I was very upset after spending nearly $600 on a lizard that was bound to die and wanted a refund at least for the cost of her. Again I was talked to very antagonistically, told that there was no way I was getting a refund and that he "couldn't believe I had killed a healthy lizard."

PICTURES OF PEBBLES:

http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~georgio/rippebbles.htm

FORUM POSTS ABOUT PEBBLES (in chronological order):

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=258339,258339

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=258339,258488

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=258339,258498

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=272608,272608

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=279713,279713

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=283452,283452

ACTUAL EMAILS:

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:44:28 -0500
From: <[email protected]>
[ Add to Address Book | Block Address | Report as Spam ]
To: <left blank on purpose>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)


First of all, how long has she been in captivity?
She is captive born, and 5 years old

Is she showing any signs of brumating for the winter?
No, she is still roaming around and eating normally.

How much does she weigh?
Approx 1.6 lbs

Is she currently housed with any other lizards and if so how does she get
along with them?
No, she has been solitary her whole life (as a pet)

How do you know she's a female?
We guarantee the accuracy of sexed uromastyx. There are no femoral pores,
and she probed female.


I would suggest to call us ASAP to order as this morning alone, I received
about 7 emails about her.

Thanks
Greg
Underground Reptiles
954.428.8005

_______________________

PHONE CONVERSATION INFORMING THEM I WOULD LIKE TO PURCHASE HER

_______________________

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:46:42 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
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To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)



Greg,

Just wanted to let you know that I got the female aegypticus this morning. Overall I'm very pleased with her. She has a great personality and seems to be settling well. I am a little concerned about an abrasion she has on her mouth however. How and when did this happen? Was she being given any topical antibiotics etc for it?

Thanks,

Peter Ingoldsby

______________________

PHONE CALL: After noticing she could not walk on her arm I called within the hour. I was informed she could walk fine before she was shipped and that she had no abrasion on her face (obviously a lie as the abrasion had already partially scarred over. I also asked about numerous scars on her back and was informed they were just from bites from a cagemate and that they had healed over just fine. (NOTE: This contradicts what they told me earlier that she was housed solitary her whole life, see previous email). I was also told if I was not satisfied with her to just send her back but they could not refund shipping. I decided not to send her back because it would be a loss of $70 for myself and I figured she would be walking on her leg in no time and the other injuries were minor.

______________________

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:39:29 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
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To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)



Rian,

Just wanted to let you know I took the female aegypticus in for a vet checkup. He said her mouth looks fine and should heal nicely so that is nothing to worry about. For her lame leg he said he could not feel a fracture but it was hard to tell because there was quite a bit of swelling. He gave her an anti-inflammatory injection and said to check back in a few days depending on how she responds. The vet visit was $60.00 altogether but I probably would have brought her in for a check-up myself anyway. So, the added cost of the injection was $12.50. If there is no serious damage and she ends up walking on her leg in the next couple of days don't worry about it. If, however, she does not get better she will need a $60 x-ray, which I would like compensation for. Hopefully it will just be a minor injury and she'll be walking on it in the next day or two.


Peter Ingoldsby


______________________

NOTE: They did not respond to the previous email...

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:40:33 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
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To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)



Rian or Greg,

Well, the swelling has not gone down on the arm of the female Egyptian Uromastyx you sent me, in fact, it has gotten worse. The arm is now completely swollen and hard to the touch. I scheduled an appointment today to get x-rays and would like to split the veterinary costs with you as we discussed over the phone. I can send you pictures of the arm as well as fax you the invoice for the veterinary visit or have my vet call you if need be. The x-ray will be approximately $60 plus whatever treatment she needs after seeing the x-rays. I hope she gets better soon for all of our sakes. If you have anything else you want me to do send me an email or give me a call (_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _).

Peter Ingoldsby

_____________________

I still got not response from the email above so I called Underground Reptiles on the phone. The owner got defensive, said they said they would split vet bills in the beginning but I had kept her too long at this point and that they would not split veterinary costs. Again, they said I could send her back if I was not satisfied. At this point however sending her back would mean I would lose $250 trying to help this poor animal and have nothing to show for it. I decided to keep her for her own health and because it did not make sense to me (at the time) to lose so much money for no reason.

____________________

Last phone conversation, after Pebbles death. Again the owner was very defensive. The conversation basically went like this:

Me: Rian? Hey it's Peter Ingoldsby, the guy you sold the Egyptian Uromastyx to about 3 weeks ago. Did Greg inform you what happened?

Rian: Just that she died.

Me: Yeah, probable cause of death was septicemia. Most likely she got bacteria in her blood when the other Uromastyx bit her on the back and it ended up swelling up her arm and killing her.

Rian: Look, your not getting any of your money back. I told you you could send her back if you weren't satisfied. She was in perfect health, captive bred. I can't believe you killed an animal like that.

Me (VERY UPSET AT THAT LAST COMMENT): Don't <font color=red>[bleep]</font>ing talk to me like that, I did everything I could to save...

Rian: Bye (hangs up on me)

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Peter,

I am sorry to hear your Uromastyx died but I would be a little upset with your Vet. When your Vet saw the leg the first time I can understand them not knowing what it was for sure but the second time they should have known there was an infection in the leg and should have treated with antibiotics and not waited as they did. That is what caused the septicemia. They let the infection get worse and over take the body. By just looking at the pictures I can see that it appears the infection started on one of the toes and traveled up the arm. A qualified Vet should have been able to see that as well specially being in person. They should have run some bloodwork to check the white count earlier on then they did.

Rian offered to refund your money if you returned the animal and that is just what you probably should have done. You can not sit there and say that she would not have received proper Veterinarian care at their facility after she arrived back there because you have no idea of what they would have done.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to justify his actions if he was in fact rude or unprofesional to you on the phone but rather what should have been done when the animal was seen by your Vet in my opinion.

 

[brucestephenson]

Is Rian's last name Gitman? What is Greg's last name also please?

 

[CheriS]

Peter,

I am sorry you lost her, she was lovely Uro. As far as the sell of her, I looked over their site and I can not see any terms of sales there, but... you did notify them right away and let them know she had injuries and you say they agreed to share vet cost with you to get her healthy. At minimum I think they are obligated for that.

The fact there is a discrepancy in what they told you on the phone (she was always alone) and what they told you later (cagemate bite) makes me think the arm problem with an infection was a bite. Lizards will often swell up several days after a bite from another one and only a long course of anitbiotics will clear it. If it gets into the blood stream, it can and will turn deadly and the animal will go down fast... sometimes within hours, but the injury happened long before.

You told them the same day the arm was injured, you also told them within 10 days it was infected. Returning an animal in that shape would probably have been fatal for her, but IMO, you informed them timely and they should be repsonsible for it.

I would like very much to hear what they have to say on this matter since I live in FLorida also. Have they been notified this thread is here?

 

[CheriS]

Also, I agree with Rob, a qualified Vet would have known right off to look for infection from a bite in a swollen arm on a lizard species, it is a very common thing, but that also does not alter the fact, if it was a bite, it occured prior to her arrival to you.

 

[g23armani]

Rob,

I believe the reason my vet did not suspect septicemia to begin with was because there was no (at least apparent) break in the skin. It is his (maybe wrongful...I don't know) belief that bacteria was introduced into her bloodstream when she was bitten on the back by other uromastyx (which I was informed about later...as is explained in the post) and the bacteria did not have the ability to really take off until she was subjected to the cold temperatures of shipping.

As far as me sending her back the problem was each step she seemed worse but I was more indebted to her. In the beginning I would have lost $70 in shipping sending her back right away, which I definitely would have done if I had known but I figured it was not that bad of an injury. Then, after scheduling a second veterinary appointment BECAUSE I thought we were going to split veterinary costs and they were so kind as to work with me to get her into shape they informed me later that they were not going to and I could ship her back. At this point I would lose $250 in bills and shipping and get nothing in return. I really wish I they had replied about the vet trip before bringing her (you'd think if it was going to be a problem they would...at that point I probably would not have taken her in and sent her back) but when they didn't I just figured they would stick true to their word. (Also, isn't it strange how someone will write you back within half an hour when you are trying to buy something from them but ignore you when you need their help?)

The point is I never should have been put in this situation to begin with. Neither of us should have. I'm not asking them to give me all $600 of the money I spent on her, I just feel they should refund me the cost of her because I was not sent what I bought and even if I had sent her back there was very little chance she would have made it, especially with the added stress of another shipment. In the case proposed they would break out even for her (if they really were going to take her to the vet that's better than where they would have been if she did not end up with me) and I would end up paying $280 for vet bills which I would gladly do (and the reason why I did) to try and save an animals life.

Peter

 

[Hard2FindHerps]

Rian Gittman @Underground Reptiles BAD GUY

I am very sorry to hear about your transaction with Underground but I must tell you that it does not surprise me. A little over a year ago I purchased my first snake from Underground Reptiles. I went to that store under the reccomendation of a friend who was already into reptiles. I went into the store with the idea that I wanted one snake which I had seen in pictures, a jungle carpet python with vibrant yellows and deep blacks.
I didnt know anything about snakes at the time as far as typical temperments of certain species, feeding habits, housing etc. When I got to the store I was assisted by a guy who seemed very nice and friendly, he could tell that I was going to buy something, who I later found out was Rian.
I told him that I had seen a picture of a JCP with bright vibrant yellows and that was the snake that I wanted. HE showed me a baby and he allowed me to hold the snake which HE removed from the deli cup and placed in my hands. I held the snake for a bit, asked a few questions regarding coloration as an adult and he explained they would either be white or yellow, maybe something in between.
As I was holding it he kept repeating the phrase"its puppy dog tame". I finally said ok I would take it and I asked how much it would be and he went on with the whole salesman bit. Needless to say after I spent $55 on a 20g tank and close to $220 dollars in accesories which including a UV fixture for a snake I took my first snake home. As I was leaving he gave me his card and said if for any reason I had problems to call him with my concerns and if for some reason I didnt like the animal I had 14 days to return it.
I took him home and I set him up according to the care sheet that Rian gave me and everything seemed fine. Later that evening I attempted to take him out of the cage to hold him and he began to strike at me. I left him alone thinking that he needed to acclimate. The next day I tried again, still struck. I realize that this was a baby but this was my first snake and so I was very afraid.
The next day I called Rian and asked him about the snake and told him very nicely that this snake was very aggressive and that I wasnt prepared to deal with such a snake. I asked him nicely to take it back and he told me, in the same tone Im sure he spoke to you, in that he would not because I held it in his store and that it was "puppy dog tame", I picked the snake. I said that it was his policy on his sheet to take the snake back and again in a nasty tone he said no I wont take it back.
After this happened I knew that I would never do business with this man again and I continued to tell people about it. Since then I have learned so much more about the reptile industry as a business and the hobby as a whole. At the time I knew nothing of this site or of any of the other reptile classifieds/forums. I found out that I got ripped off on the snake and I knew on the accessories. To this day when I see one of his posts on any site I laugh becuase I know that majority of his animals come from a local wholesaler as he is a retail establishment and a select few come from private breeders. It is usually easy to discern which are which. In the future I would urge everyone to not buy from this man. His business practices are to say the least unethical and he usually somewhat misrepresents every animal he sells.
This is the only my experience and so I just wanted to share it with the public.

Michael Tragash

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Peter,

At the time you took the animal to the vet the infection was isolated in the leg. Because the infection was not treated with proper antibiotics early on it more than likely turned to septicemia and caused the demise of the animal. Also the infection in the leg does not have to come from a visible laceration. Sometimes pulled nails can get infected on the inside which is not visible on the outside until it starts showing the swelling. When this happens and is treated immediately with antibiotics the infection goes away in a matter of a few days. By looking at the pictures it looks to me that the infection started from the outer toe on the foot. It very well could have been from a bite, a pulled nail, a twisted toe, etc.

Also Michael,

I can understand that you would have been scared of the animal had you had no experience with snakes prior to that but you had to realize that you just took the animal home, The animal was still settling in and all animals get stressed in those situations and the snake was probably feeling very vulnerable and more scared than you were and should have calmed down. In all honesty you did handle the snake in the store and agree to purchase it after that. They were not responsible for the snake becoming stressed or scared in your care but I personally would have taken the animal back to keep the customer happy.

 

[CheriS]

Peter,

I have emailed this company, both Rian and Gregg and asked them to come here and give their side of the story. It always is better for both sides to be able to tell their side and points of view. I would also like to hear about them responding or not and way.

This is sad that not only was the Uro lost, but had the communications been better with the seller, they most likely could have spotted this was a bite reaction much earlier than the vet treated, a few days of antibiotics to solve the problem.

I do not think it was the old bites on the back, you can see the fresh broken scales on the wrist (sorry Rob, I do not see what you are saying about a finger). Blood poisoning does not always travel up from the location and with how swollen it is later on you can see the point of initial injury

In doing rescues we have seen this so many times, and the broken scales like that are a sure indicator what happened. Antibiotics usually take care of it in a few days, if it is treated within a reasonable time. I also like Rob fault the Vet there.

I can not fault the buyer here, he made two trips to the Vet within the first 9 days and this was over Thanksgiving weekend and he made two phone calls and three emails during that time to the seller... of which none of the emails was returned it appears......... really BAD customer service in my book, had they returned EVEN one of those emails and looked at the pictures, they would have been able to direct this "customer" in adequate care to be able to help this Uro and it would have probably survived.

Follow up from the sale is everything....... EVERYTHING, and unless they show evidence they responded and tried to help, they fell down BAD on that, to this buyer and to an animal they had a responsibility too.

They abandon both when they could have made a BIG difference in the outcome.

From what is presented here so far, this breaks down
Seller
1. Sold an animal with bites= Poor Business
2. Offered to share Vet cost then reneged = Poor Business
3. Did not return 3 emails from a new buyer with a serious problem in 9 days = VERY poor business
4. Accused the buyer of killing the animal they sent with bite marks = inexcusable!

Buyer
1. Reported in email and phone call the first day a problem = Responsible buyer
2. Took to Vet immediately = Responsible Buyer
3. Kept the seller informed of condition and actions - Responsible buyer
4. Returned to Vet = Responsible Buyer

Vet
1. Treated the symptom, slight inflammation but said to return if not better. Normal considering what all the other test could cost to rule out infection/breaks = responsible Vet
2. Second Visit=IMO, he should have realized this was an infection at that point = contributed to the death

I don't think the buyer here had anything he failed to due, but trust his vet and the seller to help, which they both let him and the animal down, the one by their choice and poor business, the other probably by inexperience.

Peter states they told him he could return the animal, but I can certainly see him thinking it may have been a slight injury from shipping since they mislead him about the animal being alone and that's where both him and the Vet missed a bite. I would have done the same thing in his position as I think most people would. He bought the animal because he wanted it and I also do not have the heart to ship a sick animal back..... and think it poor of the seller to advise a cross country shipping of an ill animals

 

[g23armani]

Rob,

I think the complaint that Michael and I mostly have about Rian is something that is hard to convey with typed words. It's the feeling you get when you talk to him. As if he does not care how you feel, does not care about the animal, just wants to be as short and abrupt as possible, to stop all conversation because he already has what he wants: your money. If he questioned the way I was taking care of Pebbles and really wanted to take her to the vet and get her in better shape personally why not ask me to ship her back so he could get her back on her feet and give me a refund in a manner that suggested he was doing it for the good of the animal? I personally know Doug Dix did this exact thing with a sick uromastyx another amatuer hobbyest bought not too long ago. If he had come to me with honest concern about both the uromastyx and my satisfaction as a customer I would have happily listened to his requests and paid the shipping to send her back. Instead, he took everything I said as a threat. When I called and said Pebbles had died he never asked what happened, he never expressed any sympathy for the tragic loss of an animal, never even took the time to listen. I started to explain what my vet and I thought had happened and he immediately cut me off, told me I was not getting any money, said his actions and the animals health were perfect and that he was disgusted that I had killed a perfectly healthy animal...end of story. That pain and disgust that I felt when I listened to him say those words--after doing everything I could, devoting my time, spending all my money, crying for her in the vets office, holding her in my arms as she took her last breaths--is something I would not want anyone else to experience and the reason why I condemn them as a company.

Peter

 

[dvf1973]

when and how

was the transaction done? rian does ALOT of buisiness online, if you feel thet this is bad enough depending on your transaction write kingsnake about the incident, write paypal if you used them, the ifcc website as you did not recieve the product you paid for[fraud], it will wake him up i am sure,
i have bought a bunch of stuff from him, he was difficult, i lost two arus in the first week got a necropsy from the vet - he shipped me two new ones, do you still have the uro? put it on dry ice send it to him ask for a full refund, or get a necropsy and send him pics and a solid vet report, this wll let him know you are serious, when in doubt get aggressive,
its a shame for you, the animal[most of all], and all of us as this trend is common to say the least, inform him you are intending to do a few things with in your legal rights to stop his bad practices like the bbb, he doesnt have to be a member nor do you, if you write them he will be black listed until you or their agents find a resolution, paypal him a request for a refund, or have you cedit card reverse the charges, there are a lot of venues to use at your disposal
i hope this helps i may drop him a line and ask him what the deal with this is as his rep lately is kind of on the line, good luck

 

[KNOBTAIL]

I doubt had the Uro been in the shape

that it should have been when it was offered for sale, this probably would never have happened. If their are not set terms on Undergrounds site, then the buyer has alot running on his side legally.

In many instances, these stores will tell a customer to "take it to the vet" or " it may have happened through transit", or " it was perfect when we shipped it" as an excuse for putting time between the sale and receipt of the animal. But in this particular case, Underground was notified immediately, and if they were unaware of the problem before they shipped, they certainly were aware of it after. As cruel as it may seem, the better course of action would have been for the buyer to send the animal back, and not absorb any additional charges nor put an additional time frame on the animal. This is an excuse that occurs all the time. " you had the animal to long" In fact it really has nothing to do with the injury or illness of the animal other than the seller attempting to put the blame on the buyer. I would persue this, and take whatever steps are necessary to recover your monies.

 

[dvf1973]

i forwarded them

all of the pertinant info on the charges and the links to these threads, so he will have every opportunity to reply, we shall see,

 

[Underground]

Official Response About Pebbles

For a response regarding this matter, please go to:

www.undergroundreptiles.com/pebbles.htm

Thank You
Underground Reptiles Staff

 

[CheriS]

Thank you for your response and your side of the story, but I have to differ on somethings, you state you have received emails

e-mails we have received with calling us names, telling us how horrendous we are

and then talk about no phone calls..yet asking people to

ASK, THINK, and then respond.

Here is a copy of my email to you;
*************************************
From: "Cheri" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Subject: Uro you sold and BOI report
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 02:48:44 -0500

Rian or Greg

Would you or an owner/manager of this business please read this thread and give your input and side of the story?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30757&perpage=5&pagenumber=1

This is on www.faunaclassifieds.com on the Board of Inquiry

CheriS
*********************
That said, I think you posting that on a response on your site a bit of a streatch of the truth and I know others that emailed you directing you to this thread and asking your side, not insulting you.

What I do consider an insult directed at someone, who just lost an animal, was this:

Peter was more concerned about the money than the animal.

How you can possibly state that when HE was the one that paid for the animal as he cared for the animals, he took it to the vet three times and paid the bill..... as he cared for the animal, Emailed you updates all along as he cared for the animal he was the one to decide to end it's suffering and stayed with it throughout because he cared for the animal.

That tasteless statement alone on your site, told me the true story and who was being more factual and who cared about the animal foremost, you statement is an excuse for your action.

Do the right thing by a customer who tried to care properly for an animals from you, with no response from you when he emailed. Apologize, make restituion with him with either refund, the vet bils or credit(as you state you have offered) and learn better customer service from it.

This is a shame!

 

[CheriS]

Also please note, there are no email respones to the buyers email offered as proof they responded, either on this thread or their website response..... that certainly indicates to me, there was no response and who really cared about money and who cared about the Uro.

Asking him to send it back, across country in the winter with an arm that swollen was a death sentence and poor choice, offering to cover vet expenses (even if your was cheaper as stated by you.....hrmmmm, an indicator of who was more concerned about money or the animals) would have been the correct avenue.

I also think adding the fish and the cross to the response is rather contradictory... anyone else notice it is often the people that claim christian values that are the ones that least practice them but then seem to hide behind them?

Please, re-evaluate your position and think about those christian values... We all make mistakes, get caught up in life's busy times, let things slip, have emotions to something and are not perfect. You can not bring back the animal at this point and it obviously was another animal bite, whether it happened with you or the prior owner and you had no knowledge of it.

 

[Hard2FindHerps]

Rob,
I understand what you are saying. I detailed my transaction with Rian in order to illustrate his love for the almighty dollar and not the animals he sells. While Rian may like reptiles, I honestly feel that he loves money. This was his motivation for not explaining that JCPs may not be good first snakes and also not explaining about acclimation and adjustment time as well as the tendency for new borns to be weary of the outside. Like I said this was my first snake and since then I have learned much more. I have kept WC bloods that would strike out at whatever moved, amazon tree boas, etc. I know about typical temperments and such so I know now what im getting into but at the time I had no idea, only that I liked the way that snake looked. When a customer enters the pet shop environment it is the salesman who should explain what is entailed if the customer doesnt know much like a car salesman explains a cars features. Rian loves money and will do just about anything to get it and so with customers he puts on an act and as soon as he gets paid its over. Customer service is not part of Undergrounds vocabulary. Like you said, to keep the customer happy you would have taken it back and so would have I if it were my animal. I dont need to lose customers over stuff like that. I did hold the animal but Rian removed it from the cup. The only time I had problems at home was when I was reaching in the cage so I would have never seen that in the store. At any rate I am rambling. The point is that customer service is not present at that shop and this situation unfortunately doesnt surprise me.

Michael Tragash

 

[dvf1973]

peter are you still here?

first of all, anyone on this thread calling anyone names and threatening them through emails before they [underground] even knew about this thread in my opinion does no good, it creates often a bias judge and jury , that gets cases thrown from court doesnt it? my point is i hear eveyones opinion but alot of us have had good experiences with them, i feel from my side i needed to here both sides, so as a big spender with them i wrote them to let them know, they replied thanking me and came on here immediatley to defend themselves, it seems to happen alot that way, if i leave my computer drama for ten minutes to let the dogs out the whole situation changes,

peter how do you feel about their response? does this help or hurt you? i know when dealing with sick, hurt , and or dying animals my emotions are always at their peak, i say things, do things that maybe i dont need to, thats part of life, it sucks, did you feverishly curse them[they are very religious as we can see] ? none of us really know the facts as it theoretically is hearsay, your point, there point, etc, youve had some time to think things through i am sure but again i know how temps can change dealing with these situations,
by no means dont take this the wrong way as i wasnt there, and couldnt possibly know the FACTS, i just dont want to cast any stones before the jury is out

in my dealings with rian he was short with me, oh well, not the best in customer service, as far as being money oriented , well yea thats the way the world turns, he has a store that feeds him, his family, his employees , his animals, so selling and profiting is very important, obviously never sacrificing the animals health to make a buck?

now that all parties are involved email him politely , professionally [as its just as important to be a professional customer], see if he will agree to split the difference on the vet bill and the animall, and maybe justice will be done, i can assure you if you called me ranting and raving[not that this is the case] i would hang up as well, nut as my experience told me, be honest, straight forward, he will take care of you

again i am sorry to see the loss of that beautiful animal, i hope everything works out for you guys,

 

[g23armani]

There are a few things that are untrue in Rian's statement:

"It was in perfect health and had not even a scratch on it"

She had an abrasion on her mouth as well as a lot of scarring on her back. I was told this scarring was caused by minor bites by other uromastyx, that they had healed over (it appeared they had) and not to worry about it. She could not walk right from the beginning which is why I contacted Rian the day I received her.

"We told him to send it back; we would pay the shipping and refund his money."

Partially true. They did tell me to send her back but said they did not refund shipping, meaning it would cost me $70 ($35 here and $35 back) to send her back, which is why I decided to keep her even though I thought she had minor injuries.

"We didn't here from Peter again for over a week."

I sent an email Tuesday, November 25th, THE DAY I received her. Here is a copy: (note that I also took her to the vet THE DAY I received her because I wanted to make sure she was okay, I will get digital pictures of my vet bill receipts up soon)

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:39:29 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
[ Add to Address Book | Block Address | Report as Spam ]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)


Rian,
Just wanted to let you know I took the female aegypticus in for a vet checkup. He said her mouth looks fine and should heal nicely so that is nothing to worry about. For her lame leg he said he could not feel a fracture but it was hard to tell because there was quite a bit of swelling. He gave her an anti-inflammatory injection and said to check back in a few days depending on how she responds. The vet visit was $60.00 altogether but I probably would have brought her in for a check-up myself anyway. So, the added cost of the injection was $12.50. If there is no serious damage and she ends up walking on her leg in the next couple of days don't worry about it. If, however, she does not get better she will need a $60 x-ray, which I would like compensation for. Hopefully it will just be a minor injury and she'll be walking on it in the next day or two.

Peter Ingoldsby

The issue was never resolved.

"Upon our next contact, Peter told us the animal looked great and was doing well, and never gave us a vet bill."

A complete, flat out lie. I never said the animal looked great besides when I sent an email minutes after I took her out of the box, and even in that email I expressed concern over the abrasion on her face. Never after finding out about the arm did I say she looked great and was doing well, her health got worse and worse as days went on. I never even received a response to the emails I sent.

I wrote another email December 4th, stating that I was going to take her to the vet to get x-rays because her arm had not gotten any better:

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:40:33 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
[ Add to Address Book | Block Address | Report as Spam ]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Message about: Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)


Rian or Greg,
Well, the swelling has not gone down on the arm of the female Egyptian Uromastyx you sent me, in fact, it has gotten worse. The arm is now completely swollen and hard to the touch. I scheduled an appointment today to get x-rays and would like to split the veterinary costs with you as we discussed over the phone. I can send you pictures of the arm as well as fax you the invoice for the veterinary visit or have my vet call you if need be. The x-ray will be approximately $60 plus whatever treatment she needs after seeing the x-rays. I hope she gets better soon for all of our sakes. If you have anything else you want me to do send me an email or give me a call (_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _).

Peter Ingoldsby

"Our vet would care for the animal at a fraction of the cost and we would refund his money. He still refused to do so."

Never in any conversation was there mention of a vet. Every single time I got on the phone with Rian the conversation was about how he could easily sell her because he had received so many calls and emails about her (most likely an attempt to make me, the buyer, feel that I had no clout in the conversation). There was never one mention of sympathy for the animals pain or a desire to get the animal back to health besides the initial response when he said he would pay half the vet bills.

"Peter then called us a week after that telling us that the animal had perished. We offered him a credit toward something else because we felt bad for the animal and for Peter, who works as hard as we do for our money. He insisted on cursing at us and threatening us"

They did say, "if you want we can give you a deal on something else, but there's no way your getting your money back" but the last thing I wanted at that point was a continued business relationship with Underground Reptiles. The conversation had no sense of sympathy for me or Pebbles, they never even asked what happened. The entirety of the conversation was about 30 seconds long. I cursed after I was accused of killing her because that was the farthest thing from the truth and I was very upset which prompted Rian to hang up on me.

"that Peter was more concerned about the money than the animal."

How does 4 vet bills in 3 weeks totaling over $300 (I forgot to add the cost of the euthanasia in my $280 estimate above) show that I care more about money than the animal? Also, see my forum posts about the whole situation:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=258339,258488

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=258339,258498

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=272608,272608

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=279713,279713

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=283452,283452

"After receiving so many e-mails about what a nice guy Peter is...After all of the e-mails we have received with calling us names, telling us how horrendous we are."

Thank you everyone for your support.

Peter

 

[g23armani]

Re: peter are you still here?

Damien,

you said:

i can assure you if you called me ranting and raving[not that this is the case] i would hang up as well

I did not call to rant and rave, my intentions can be summed in this forum post, which I posted the day of Pebbles death:

"I called the place I bought her from this morning and talked with someone there, although it was not the owner who I had dealt with previously. He sounded much nicer and said the owner would be in tomorrow and would give me a call. I'm going to give them a chance to try and rectify the situation and see what they say...I'll worry about the next step later if need be."

Greg was much nicer on the phone than Rian and actually had a tinge of sympathy in his voice, but he basically just said I needed to talk to Rian. When Rian got on the phone "look man, your not getting any money back" was his first complete sentance of the conversation...definitely not a response that was condusive to rationally working out the problem. I cursed once after he accused me of killing her because it was very, very hard for me to hear. I said: "Don't f'ing talk to me like that, I tried everything I could to save her..." and then he hung up on me.

As far as my feelings about their official response, see my previous post.

Peter