Rian at Underground Reptiles BAD GUY

[dvf1973]

dont get me wrong

i hear everything your saying, i hadnt seen a response from you - from their response, i am only playing devils advocate because it does affect me as a buyer and i need as many facts as i can get to form authentic opinions, not hearsay and third party info,
i do hear you, i think the cursing part " I cursed after I was accused of killing her because that was the farthest thing from the truth and I was very upset which prompted Rian to hang up on me." was understandable in this case if that was the case, dealing with people and using language seems often to build walls real quick, i use it loosely, dont really care, but some people thats the end all, and really take the meanings to heart,
oh well, point is at this point your options are varied, now that you have them here and we as witness, approach them again in a forward, and polite manner and see if you can get resolve, do it email, or certified snail mail so you have physical evidence, if your not getting your money back for the animal send them an invoice for half the vet bill they agreed to, and a request for a perfectly healthy uro in credit due, maybe you both can end this, but unless your willing to take legal action, ifcc, bb, fbi, credit cards, paypal, post office, or any others you can find"its alot of work" ive done it and won, but maybe you can comprimise and as it sucks, you can still end up not as bad as you stand right now , with nothing, good luck

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Apparently, the fact that the Uro

may have been injured, does not seem to play in the scheme of things when reading Rians reply. The fact that the buyer waited until the inevitable occurred did. Just out of curiosity, how did you pay for the Uro? Sometimes the right thing may not necessarily be the best thing to do. Your intentions as honorable as they may be has left you in a no win situation. You are out the vets bill, the money and the Uro. A lousy situation, and Rian should have replaced the animal, no questions asked.

 

[CheriS]

I am thinking that Rian is going on the assumption that the animal was healthy and he did not realize it was injured, bite marks take several days to state swelling and inflame joints.

I don't think anyone at this point can question this animal was injured and an injury that was infected, so not from transit to a new home and jarring.

Damien,

Its nice that you as a "big Spender with them" got a response to your email, but mine and some others were several hours earlier and we have never heard from them and the emails were not rude or insulting as you can see mine posted earlier... perhaps another indicator of concern only for where the money is and not the customer or animal.

I am glad you did join this thread, and perhaps you are seeing a different side to their business ethics, it also enables us to see that side also... thank you.

Does anyone know who the Owner is of this business? If not Greg or Rian, I think someone should contact them.

The prime fact is they did sell an injured animal, whether they knew it at the time or not, they certainly know it now... you can also see the old scarring on her back...... this was NOT a perfect animal, the fact they knew there was old bite marks, and don't overlook the partially healed mouth that you can see in the picture the day she arrived. These should have been a red flag to anyone and they had to realize that.

They as experienced keepers if they had bothered to respond to his emails and offer of pictures could have helped the animal and new owner....... they had already decided that they were not going to do anything at that point.... it makes me wonder what they really did know.

Peter,

You need to pursue this with the owner and if that gets you no where, other's on here have advised what legal steps and purchase wise steps you can take, as someone that has worked with the court system for years, I can assure you, you would prevail...... but, a shame you have to take man's courts to get justice over people that claim to be godly

This reinforces my opinion of people that advertise their godliness.... It seems to be advertised openly but not practised in reality when there is nothing in it financially for them

 

[dvf1973]

i never said i agree

with their ethics, i am only here because i need to have answers to my questions on theur ethics, phone call info means little to me because its hearsay, only written documentation answers questions, so far they have put up no evidence, only statement, they have done good in our transactions as of now, if the end comes and peter hasnt been taken care of they will indeed lose my buisiness, i just feel they need to be given every opportunity to defend themselves before they get toasted on the boi, so far they havent presented any documents only hearsay, we shall see, i dont know them, i dont do the religious thing whatsoever period so i really dont have any urges to know them, i just liked their "purdy snakes " bought them , and have them still, other than the two replacements, now in the other threads below they have many who have done well with them, so from that perspective its only reasonable for me, us , them to get a good response in defence, i believe fully that the buyer should get a new animal for free, and get half the money for the animals vet bill, even though they did want it back, they really have no tos, this is very much to the buyers advantage, i would do the email-letter thing and see what happens , so far yes they do look bad in regaurds to what the buyer said they said,

 

[WebSlave]

Please note my rules addendum concerning posting links within messages on this site:

Rules Addendum

This rule started out in reference to ads posted, but has been expanded to cover any information posted on an external website.

Several people have posted links in this thread to information they are intending to use as evidence in a dispute in this forum. This has been addressed in the past and the actual text needs to be provided within a message, either as cut and pasted text, or as a graphic image of a screen shot.

Please note that the intent of this rule is to keep the evidence captured as a snapshot, and not something that can be edited or deleted at a later date if the originator of that information finds it in their best interest to do so. That cannot happen once the information, in its entirety, has been posted here in the manner requested above.

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

 

[CheriS]

damien,

I agree with your advice of the email thing, I think Peter should email them outlining a proposal of what would resolve this to his satisfaction, from what I see in this thread, I think he would be more than fair. That leaves the ball in their court to see really what kind of, not only business, but people they are.

I also agree that this is past the phone communication point and should be handled in writing, so it is not a he said... he said factor and responsible or irresponsible actions based on "in the heat of the response to something someone says"

I do not agree with their comment and have seen no indicator in Peter's actions or this thread, that his only concern was money..... the opposite in fact and their comment to that I think was very poor and VERY unchristian.

CheriS, a southern minister's daughter who works in Fraud for the State of Florida... two things I know well.

 

[W.Wedeking]

Some added information

I would like to say that I have followed Peter's post on KS for well over a year now including his saga with Boulder, his first Egyptian Uro.

He obtained Boulder as a rescue who had been badly burned. He and his vet managed to rehabilitate the animal. This is not an easy task with uromastyx and I have every confidence in both Peter's and his vet's abilty.

Uromastyx are much more sensative to changes such as cold temperatures and moving to a new home. Extreeme care must be taken to acclimate them properly and often times the stress and trauma of changing environments can push an already weak uro to the point of no return.

I was one of the breeders with whom Peter was in contact during Pebbles ordeal. I believe that he did the right thing with her in not sending her back to them. The trauma of the cold, as well as changing environment/housing again, I believe would have certainly ment her end. She had a much better chance of survival staying with Peter.

It would be nice if all of us could be callus enough that we could just send a sick animal back to the originator for them to deal with, but some of us just care too deeply for that.

This isn't a case where a buyer saw an injured animal and took it in as a rescue instead of leaving it for the seller to deal with. This is a case where a customer ordered a "perfectly healthy" animal that arrived less than "perfectly healthy". The seller was notified within a reasonable amount of time of the situation and told the buyer they would help with vet costs. When the buyer decided to take them up on it, they changed their tune and what they offered was detrimental to the animal. This is simply bad business.

I believe they need to reimburse Peter for the portion of the vet bills they agreed to pay, plus a refund for Pebbles as she was clearly not what they had represented and Peter has the vet bills/statement to show this.

 

[g23armani]

Well, the balls in their court now

I sent them an email in order to try and settle this situation. Here is a copy:

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 01:12:27 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <>
[ Add to Address Book | Block Address | Report as Spam ]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Regarding our dispute over the egyptian Uromastyx



Rian:

This letter is an attempt to come to an agreement and finalize the transaction for the Egyptian uromastyx I was sold. This whole ordeal has become somewhat of a spectacle and I think you and I, as well as many reptile hobbyists from around the nation, would like to see it resolved. My proposal is that you give me a full refund for the $310 that was charged to my credit card by Underground Reptiles. I was sent a faulty product to say the least and am obviously dissatisfied. Under this proposal, I will take responsibility for the vet bills which total $280.35. Under these circumstances you would only lose whatever money it cost you to acquire her and I would lose the $280.35 I spent on veterinary bills. Considering you sold her to me for a price similar to my expense, your loss is almost definitely lower than mine. Obviously this is not a favorable situation for either of us but I feel it is more than fair given the circumstances and I am sure we will both prefer it to the more lengthy and costly alternative. If you would like physical proof of her death I will pay to have her body shipped to your facility. If you would rather not, I can fax you a copy of the signed authorization for euthanasia, take pictures of the body, have you talk to my vet or whatever other method you would prefer.

I will post this email on the Fauna Classifieds Board of Inquiry. If you want to make a formal statement or apology along with your agreement to my proposal, I will be sure to post your message pending my refund. However, if you want to be rude and/or offensive, I will post this response as well. If you want to ignore me, I will tell everyone that is the case. If this proposal is agreed upon, I will call the Better Business Bureau to explain that the problem has been settled, rescind my claim of fraudulence submitted to my credit card company, and inform any other institutions I have contacted that the matter has been resolved once I receive the refund. If you want to talk further I would prefer to do it over email, as we do not seem to be “compatible” with phone conversation and would like to keep a record of our exchange.

Sincerely,

Peter Ingoldsby

 

[CheriS]

Rich,

I agree with your Rules Addendum that all responses need to be on the BOI and not linked off to another site. Hopefully the owners will do this, but if they do not, I have screen captured their response and can send it to you.

I think now that Peter is aware, you will add the pictures of Pebbles also.

 

[herpetological]

I have to pipe in so to speak..... I've known Rian for many years. I was in the "business" even before he was. Rian is a good person. Yeah, I know but, before you get on me for sticking up for him this: He's made his mistakes, he's paid for it and.... I don't for a moment think he's a "wanna be Christian!" However, we don't know how this was actually handled. I would agree that seeing the facts that it seems Rian SHOULD take care of this problem. However, i've known Rian for many years and when it comes down to it... He's always done me right. Then again I'm one of the "old timers" now. I cannot fairly say that I can vouch for both sides of this story fairly! However, I honestly believe that if cooler heads prevail both sides can come up to a settlement. Just take a breath and have patience. I would be very surprised that you would not get a better response. If you didn't I would be disappointed. That may not mean much to most people but, between me and Rian that means something! He's not the entirely horrible person you think he is.... Good luck. Hope it works out for both sides. * I can't correct my spelling!!! Glitches!!

 

[arboreals]

The other thread was getting way to long so I decided to post here. I've been going to underground since 1997. I've bought most of the reptiles I've ever kept from them. I know the owner Ryan very well as well as Greg and all the employees. A small list of a few things I've purchased from them includes: aru and biak green tree pythons, Timor monitors, sugar gliders, blood pythons, and others... With all these animals I've had one problem which was defused with no hassle. They are honest people. Basically you can't go wrong in dealing with them. I visit their store often because I live about 20min away. The quality of their animals is high and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase an animal reptile or exotic mammal again. Underground Cares for their animals just as much as you and I. Some people aren't into the fact that he bring christanity into his work business practices. There are alot of business like this and personally I have no problems with it. From what I've read about the the uromastyx post and Peter, what should have been done is the animal should have been returned. Bringing that animal to an unqualifed vet is no excuse. Underground has a very good "reptile specialist" vet. The animal would have been giving the correct care it needed. The uromastyx obviously had an infection in it's arm and should never have been put down. The customer service myself and others have recieved is more then what we would have expected. This is my view of everything and my experiences. I to this day will walk into that store and purchase anything in sight and know that if anything were to happen the problem would be fixed without a hassle. If anyone would like more info on Underground I'd be happy to talk with you personally.

John
[email protected]

 

[g23armani]

Sorry this is a bit off topic but...

I did not realize I was breaking any rules as far as linking to outside information. How do I fix what has happened? Can I edit my previous post or should I post a "revised" first post or should I just not do it in the future? Should I upload pictures of Pebbles onto a server here on faunaclassifieds? I can't edit the posts on the competitions website which is why I figured they would be good information for people to see. Thanks,

Peter

 

[CheriS]

Peter

I think you should at least post the pictures here, with dates and the emails you sent ( I think you have done that already with the emails)

John,

I think you missed a huge part of this thread, initially based on what he was told, which ended up not being true (and even Rian has on his site) the animal was not in with another, no possible infection was known about from a bite.... it was thought by ALL parties to be an injury from shipping.... His Vet could only go on what they were told, and that ended up not being the true. Inflammation from a bang around shipping, usually heal with time. By the time it was known it was an infection, shipping would have killed the animal for sure! That would have been inhumane to send back at that time........ Again, in their defense, they may not have know then, but then did know later.

AND Rian agreed to the Vet and splitting the cost!

We told him if there was anything wrong with the animal, to let us know and we would pay for part of the vet bill.

He let them know each step, they elected not to respond!

The uromastyx obviously had an infection in it's arm and should never have been put down.

Are you serious?????? Did you read thread and look at the pictures? By the time it was realized it WAS an infection and treated, the following day it was not just an infection anymore it was septic and the animal whole side was poisoned and paralyzed, there was no way back from that! Not putting it down at that point would have been inhumane

They are honest people. Basically you can't go wrong in dealing with them

HUH? Did you read this thread and look at this situation at all?

This person did deal with them, he has a dead animal, that was SENT to him with a problem, he informed then the day it arrived...... he is out $310 and nothing to show for it and out $280 in vet charges they agreed to share....been accused of killing it and told tough luck and still he is willing to meet them more than most would have and assume the Vet expenses!!

Thats your idea of "you can't go wrong in dealing with them??? And honest???

Thank you for your input and knowledge about this business... which this thread and dealings show a much different view of, so it is nice to see this is not their SOP, but please read and be informed about this particular situation....

Do you also realize he could just reverse the charges on his credit card??? He is asking them to do the right thing and not have to take those steps.... thats not asking much that he could not take on his own.... but someone in this situation should NOT have too

 

[g23armani]

Proof of false statements in Underground Reptiles official reply

I mentioned the false statements released by underground reptiles in my response to their thread earlier but wanted to go into more detail. The crucial point in Underground Reptiles statement was this section, which I can easily prove is a lie:

Upon receiving the animal, Peter said the animal was "walking funny". We told him to send it back; we would pay the shipping and refund his money. He said that he would keep the animal anyway and take it to a vet. We told him if there was anything wrong with the animal, to let us know and we would pay for part of the vet bill. We didn't here from Peter again for over a week.

Upon our next contact, Peter told us the animal looked great and was doing well, and never gave us a vet bill. We considered the matter resolved and another satisfied customer was born.

I NEVER contacted them telling them the animal looked great and was doing well. I received the animal on Tuesday, November 25th and called them to inform them about the leg, scheduled a veterinary appointment and emailed them the results of the check-up all within the same day.

here is the receipt for this vet visit:

They say they did not hear from me for "over a week," I informed them of the problem and wrote them back about it THE SAME DAY! Maybe they somehow they blended all of Tuesday, November 25th's instances together and meant they did not hear from me for over a week after that, which in my mind implies a little over a week but under 2 weeks (seem logicial?). That would mean they are saying contacted them to say Pebbles was "doing great" approximately between december 3rd and 7th. They are right in one regards, I did contact them in that time period, on December 4th through email and again on December 5th by phone, but it was not to say the animal "looked great and was doing well" it was to say she had gotten worse and needed veterinary attention. Here is a screenshot of the email:

As well as a screenshot of the veterinary bill:

Another false statement:

It was in perfect health and had not even a scratch on it

She had large amounts of scarring along her back and an abrasion on her mouth. Regrettably I don't have the best picture of the abrasion but this will have to do:

The other false statements that underground reptiles made in it's official reply--that they would pay for the shipping, that they told me they could have their vet look at her, that their was no expression of sympathy or remorse by Rian--are basically impossible to prove as it is all hearsay. But, given the proof that they have blatantly lied in other parts of their statement, I think most will find it easy to accept that these unprovable falsifications simply follow suit.

Peter Ingoldsby

 

[KNOBTAIL]

I think you may want

to consider contacting your credit card provider. I seriously doubt Rian will do anything further than his reply. I know Underground, the store is clean, set up very nicely, and their staff is knowledgeable. but Rian can be set in his ways on certain matters, and this may be one of those times. You have already overextended yourself between emails, vet bills, etc. Do yourself a favour and charge back the sale, and be finished with this

 

[oreganus]

My experience/thoughts on this situation...

I do not know Rian very well. I know that he can be quite rude on the phone when you have a complaint. The only experience that I have had with him personally is the following:

My friend wanted a yellow eyelash viper. He called or emailed Rian( I don't remember which) and inquired about it. He was told(as I was later on) on the phone that the eyelash in question had been raised from a baby and was a yearling. We were both told that it was raised at their facility by Rian. When the snake was delivered, it was a newborn that was very cold and did not survive an hour after it was picked up from delta. The very curious part was that the yellow slip that states what the animal is and certifies it health said strictly reptiles on it! Which they were on their list for around $125 at the time and Rian charged my friend almost $300 for the snake! When questioned on it, Rian told me that it did not come from strictly, that he infact raised the animal and it was a yearling. He agreed to reimburse the money on the animal and said that he had some baby malayan pit viper babies that he would give towards the dead eyelash. He was contacted for awhile and said he was shippng over and over, but yet the animals never showed. After a long drawn out ordeal, the only things that were recieved for the almost three hundred dollar purchase were two baby american alligators.
This has been awhile ago and I really have no experience with him other than that. Maybe it was simply a fluke, I really don't know or care. I only spoke to Rian on the phone once and seemed a little short tempered, but he may have just been having a bad day, I really don't know. Neither of us(my friend or I) have dealt with him since, so I really don't know. I am not trying to say yeh or neh on dealing with them, they seem to have some nice animals posted for sale quite often, so maybe that deal was simply a bad experience for both of us and a rarity on the part of Rian. I have no hard feelings towards them, I just thought I would share my single experience. I am also not saying anything negative about strictly, my experiences with them have always been good and we have continued to buy from them often without problems. I am sure that if my friend would have simply dealt with them and paid the $175 less for the snake, there would have been no problem getting reimbursed, they are a great company and have great customer service.
Kevin Smith

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Ok, I just spent around an hour trying to read this whole thread, and I have one side of the story.

However I REFUSE to go to undergrounds site for their side of the story. This is BS if you as me. If my business was being questioned the way his is, I would surely come to the site the statments were being made on and defend myself. As a loyal boi reader I feel personally insulted by Undergrounds redirect of this situation. In my eyes it shows a complete lack of class.

Vet bills, returning animals, and people feelings for the health of an animal are very tricky things to deal with when a deal goes bad. Its very easy to fall into a trap and cause far more damage to ones reputation then the initial purchase price quite often. However is it worth 300$ to RUIN ones reputation, I think not.

I would NEVER do business with Underground reptiles based on their responce to this thread, and I reccomend any HONEST herp lover does the same.

Just my opinons, and again they are based on the one side of the story fully presented, so prove me wrong.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles


PS Peter I am very sorry for the loss of Pepples, and I do commend you on your efforts to save such a beautiful animal. The saddest part of this is that fewer and fewer egypticus are available every day, let alone larger females. That animal could have helped produce may beautufull captive bred animals in the future, truely sad.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

pebbles even....sorry about that.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[KNOBTAIL]

MICKEY, your post is quite accurate

Rian apparently feels he is above posting anything on the BOI. I know the store very well, and I know him. Certainly common sense would tell you to send another Uro. and be finished with it, however, as I indicated this does not fit into the scheme of things unless it favors him. In this case, responding the way he did leaves no room for anyone to contradict or examine his thread. Your also right about not going to his site. If he does not have the courtesy to provide some simple compensation after seeing what this person went through with a lizard, you can imagine how much less his courtesies would be for the BOI.

I have indicated that his store is a beautiful one, and his employees are very helpful, but their is an untrusting side to method of conducting business, I as well as others have experienced it, and I no longer patronize his establishment because of it.

 

[dvf1973]

well i said it i meant it

he's off my buy list, every purchase i have made with him has been a minimum of a grand, his lack of interest, his lack of resolve puts him in the red with me, i dont know how often he gets purchases like mine but i would assume his lossing a few more like me , hes in trouble, so any one out there caution, when buying theres easier people to deal with,