Info Richard Kensinger - Ballistic Morphs - Bad experience

[hhmoore]

As far as the bad experience is concerned, I consider opening a box to find a snake with some blood on the nose looking at me a bad experience.

I stated earlier that I understood being upset about the condition of the snake...but you have said more than once that this thread is not about that - it is only about the shipping. I made that post, accepting that you meant your previous statements...apparently you didn't, since you are now dragging the other issues back into focus.

the answers he gave me when I asked about shipping led me to believe he was just trying to save money on shipping costs which could have been very bad for the animal! If someone wants to cut corners that could keep the snake safe during the journey to another state in order to save a few bucks on shipping, then I personally will just do my best to avoid that kind of business in the future.

I "cut corners" in order to save on shipping - lots of them. I use plain brown boxes, I ship Standard Overnight approx 99% of the time, and I don't add the signature requirement. Oh, and I don't ship door to door except in certain circumstances. All of those things save money for my customers. That's right, it doesn't save me money; because if I was routinely paying for box kits, Priority Shipping, Signature Fees, Residential Delivery Fees, etc....you can bet that I would be adding that $18-20 per box to what I charge the customer. And, before you think that all of the above contributes to less safe situations for the snakes - I use insulation board instead of styro (it's cuts and insulates better...and, unless I screw up, it fits better, too); I ship to the nearest hub - yes, mildly inconvenient for the customer, but it eliminates the inconsistencies of the final stage of delivery while keeping the snake safe on a shelf (in a temp controlled area) until it is picked up. Shipping Standard (vs Priority) is then not a problem because both packages arrive at the hub together - the difference is in how they are loaded and scheduled for delivery...in most cases, a box held at the hub can be collected as soon as the hub opens for business in the morning (shipping delays, obviously, excepted). It also eliminates me having to require a signature because that is an automatic requirement of FedEx when picking up packages...and, better still, they require identification. This also eliminates the common issue of Signature On File notations, which mean that even though I requested, and paid, for the signature they didn't bother getting it.

I hope I'm not coming off as being argumentative, but I'm curious as to who else ships live animals without labeling them as such? Is that a common practice? I ask only because the packages I received in the past required a signature and they were all marked "live harmless reptile". Is it okay to NOT indicate somewhere on the box that there is indeed a living animal inside the box? I definitely plan to use some form of indication in the future, but I hope it's not something that is optional!

The labeling you're talking about is reasonably common from hobbyists and small- medium breeders/dealers, but most of the big names don't do it (at least, not in my experiences with them). As I said before, there is some disagreement about what is required or appropriate...but I think a lot of people simply don't want to bring attention to their boxes.
That noted, no, it is not okay, IMO, to ship without proper labeling. There have been numerous discussions on that topic, and it is a violation of Federal law to not properly label a box containing a live animal.

 

[Skiploder]

While I understand the "concern" over the labeling issue, the brown box is really a non-issue. There are a number of "Good Guys" in the business who ship in brown boxes. Have I missed some sort of rule change in which brown boxes have become some sort of taboo? Is the si

I've even received a couple of shipments from "Good Guys" that were not properly labeled - again, I don't condone it, but as long as the animal is packaged correctly it doesn't give me pause.

If you are unhappy with the animal and what appears to be a re-aggravation of an old injury, I get that. If there was some other problem with the packaging, I get that. Concern over a lack of required labeling - OK, but BOI worthy?

Concern over a brown box? Not seeing it....................and definately not BOI worthy.......

As far as signatures go, unless there has been a rule change, Fedex does not allow residence to residence deliveries. I ship all my reptiles and make my customers recieve their animals at the local hub - period. My shipping agreememt requires that the customer be available to pick up the animal at their local hub before 10 AM (most open at 9:00 AM).

No issues with the snake being on a truck all day, no excuses about not being home, and no issues with signatures. You have to sign for the package when you pick it up.

Regardless, you paid for shipping - right? could you not have requested (and paid extra for) priority? Just asking.............


H00blah, I know you have repeatedly stated that this is not about the condition of the snake, but really, if there was no nose issue, would you have started these threads about a plain brown box, a lack of a required signature and the labeling?

You have reason to be upset with that nose condition, considering from prior photos, that it looks like this was an existing issue that was reaggravated. If this blemish was not disclosed to you and you are unhappy with the animal at this price point, take the seller up on his offer and send it back.

 

[H00blah]

I didn't know I had to come to an agreement about how the animal is shipped. I just assumed everyone did it a similar way. I do not excuse the lack of label, but I understand that it isn't BOI worthy. However, for future readers, PLEASE LABEL YOUR ANIMALS! Especially with all the legislation spawning trying to get rid of these animals, the last thing we need is another shipping accident where someone opens an unmarked box and finds a big scary BALL PYTHON...

Skip, you're right. If it hadn't been for the nose rub, I would have been happy she came healthy, but I would have been confused about the lack of a label.. I would have e-mailed him when I got to work instead of calling him right then and there. In the unboxing video I posted, I show that there's no label on any side BEFORE I opened it, so it's not like it never crossed my mind what could have happened. I would have posted on my home forum to see if it was normal or a big no-no. The brown box was not an issue.. I don't care if it was a white or black box. It can be a triangle package for that matter, but it was just a box that had no label..

The blemish wasn't disclosed to me.. So it was a surprise to see a red nose out of the bag. A bad surprise.

Apparantly, the lack of label is not a bad enough issue for some of you to consider this a bad experience, allow this thread to die. I will definitely remember to clarify that I want the package to be properly labeled so my deliver guy will walk up to the door carrying it in 2 hands, and not under his arm.. This IS an information thread that I personally learned from, not to tell everyone "hey, do NOT buy from this guy", but rather to just include information about my transaction that I consider "improper". Some will agree and it seems that many will not.

 

[hhmoore]

I want the package to be properly labeled so my deliver guy will walk up to the door carrying it in 2 hands, and not under his arm.

Unfortunately, this isn't a condition where one can apply "If a, then b".
While some drivers may give a labeled box gentler treatment, some will happily toss it in the air, tuck it under their arms, and drop it to the ground in front of your door. Reality sucks, sometimes. Don't get me wrong - I agree, in theory...and in action, that boxes should be properly labeled...I'm just surprised that either your priorities are in the wrong place, or you want us to believe that they are. It's great that you notice, and care about the box being labeled properly; but the condition of the animal is of far bigger concern, IMO.

 

[Keys & Kritterz]

I "cut corners" in order to save on shipping - lots of them. I use plain brown boxes, I ship Standard Overnight approx 99% of the time, and I don't add the signature requirement. Oh, and I don't ship door to door except in certain circumstances. All of those things save money for my customers. That's right, it doesn't save me money; because if I was routinely paying for box kits, Priority Shipping, Signature Fees, Residential Delivery Fees, etc....you can bet that I would be adding that $18-20 per box to what I charge the customer. And, before you think that all of the above contributes to less safe situations for the snakes - I use insulation board instead of styro (it's cuts and insulates better...and, unless I screw up, it fits better, too); I ship to the nearest hub - yes, mildly inconvenient for the customer, but it eliminates the inconsistencies of the final stage of delivery while keeping the snake safe on a shelf (in a temp controlled area) until it is picked up. Shipping Standard (vs Priority) is then not a problem because both packages arrive at the hub together - the difference is in how they are loaded and scheduled for delivery...in most cases, a box held at the hub can be collected as soon as the hub opens for business in the morning (shipping delays, obviously, excepted). It also eliminates me having to require a signature because that is an automatic requirement of FedEx when picking up packages...and, better still, they require identification. This also eliminates the common issue of Signature On File notations, which mean that even though I requested, and paid, for the signature they didn't bother getting it.

I personally don't give my customers the option to pick it up or cut corners from what is standard, and safe shipping. I only use the white boxes so in the case a package is missed or lost it could be a lil easier to hunt down a box stating "Live harmless animal inside" instead of looking for a plain brown box. Also from my understanding you are suppost to label every box that contains a reptile, and label it with whats inside. If you require a signature and the driver doesn't get it, thats fedexs' fault. What if your customer waits till later to pick up the snake because for whatever reason didn't have a ride, etc. when it could of just come to the front door. As far as being able to pick up when they open, its an hour difference between being able to pick up when hub opens or the 10am delivery time. Cutting corners to save $15-$20? He bought a $1500 snake, what the hells another $20 bucks?

 

[Willow]

Travis I would have been upset as well. Normal practice for big breeders or not, not properly labeling the packaging is putting your customer in a legal situation. That isn't fair to someone not expecting it, no matter how common.

This thread is labeled a "Bad experience" not a "bad guy"

Travis I feel you have labeled this thread info and "bad experience" just fine. You have explained yourself, and tho not everyone may see all the reasons your upset, some people WILL appreciate this information. You have a right to be upset, and you still kept a COOL enough head to simply label this a "bad experience" info thread instead of a bad guy thread. People can read the info and decide for themselves if they would be EQUALLY upset. But don't make anyone feel like you didn't have a RIGHT to post this.

The lack of labeling SHOULD not just be swept under the rug. I mean come on, there is the Lacey Act for a reason isn't there?? There are labeling rules for a reason. It shouldn't matter if someone ageisnt the rules is common practice. If someone is unhappy about it, and it was done WRONG, they have every right to be unhappy.

I'm purely talking about the labeling of the box of course.

Now the nose rub I would be more angry about myself, but I'm sure it will heal just fine.
You did right by taking the animal to the vet ASAP!

 

[hhmoore]

I personally don't give my customers the option to pick it up or cut corners from what is standard, and safe shipping. I only use the white boxes so in the case a package is missed or lost it could be a lil easier to hunt down a box stating "Live harmless animal inside" instead of looking for a plain brown box. Also from my understanding you are suppost to label every box that contains a reptile, and label it with whats inside. If you require a signature and the driver doesn't get it, thats fedexs' fault. What if your customer waits till later to pick up the snake because for whatever reason didn't have a ride, etc. when it could of just come to the front door. As far as being able to pick up when they open, its an hour difference between being able to pick up when hub opens or the 10am delivery time. Cutting corners to save $15-$20? He bought a $1500 snake, what the hells another $20 bucks?

I guess you missed the sarcasm in my cutting corners comments That reference was started by somebody else, I just ran with it because my way is not necessarily "standard" & does in fact save money. It does not, however, increase risk to the animals; in fact, I believe that overall, having reptiles held for pickup reduces risk when compared to door to door shipping. If I was really cutting corners, I wouldn't bother using insulation board over styro. I'm not trying to sway anybody to have packages held at FedEx...but, picking up later is not an issue since the package is in a safe, temperature controlled environment waiting; all I ask is that if they aren't going pick up until late in the day, they let me know in advance (in case I need to change packaging to accomodate).

 

[hhmoore]

To be clear:
I have no problem with the OP making this thread...I just think it's messed up that he's more upset about the lack of labeling than the $1500 snake with the raw nose.
Maybe if it was more unusual to see packages lacking the indicators he wanted, I could see his point...but I've received a lot of shipments over the years, and only a small percentage of them were labeled Live Harmless Reptile(s). It's great that his experience has led him to expect that, but it is far from being SOP for most sellers.

 

[H00blah]

To be clear:
I have no problem with the OP making this thread...I just think it's messed up that he's more upset about the lack of labeling than the $1500 snake with the raw nose.
Maybe if it was more unusual to see packages lacking the indicators he wanted, I could see his point...but I've received a lot of shipments over the years, and only a small percentage of them were labeled Live Harmless Reptile(s). It's great that his experience has led him to expect that, but it is far from being SOP for most sellers.

I am NOT more upset about the label than the raw nose. Unfortunately I can NOT prove that the raw nose was like that before it left. I can't prove that it happened BECAUSE of the shipping! In skiploder's post, he called out the fact that if there had been no nose rub, I probably wouldn't have posted about this in the BOI (even though it IS an information thread). I admitted to this being the case! The nose rub is what pissed me off to begin with! Again, in my response to skiploder, I would have simply e-mailed him questioning the shipping method, and not starting a thread. What I believe PERSONALLY is really irrelevant in this situation, as it won't help to prove any points I've been trying to make.. This is an information thread on the shipping methods. On my home forum, I clearly stated how I felt about the whole situation. I'm trying to keep level-headed in this section because I take it seriously.

 

[H00blah]

To be clear:
I have no problem with the OP making this thread...I just think it's messed up that he's more upset about the lack of labeling than the $1500 snake with the raw nose.
Maybe if it was more unusual to see packages lacking the indicators he wanted, I could see his point...but I've received a lot of shipments over the years, and only a small percentage of them were labeled Live Harmless Reptile(s). It's great that his experience has led him to expect that, but it is far from being SOP for most sellers.

Also, just to reiterate, I called Rich IMMEDIATELY after ending the recording of the unboxing video, and I told him right then and there that I would like to take her to the vet. Immediately after that phone call, I put her in her tub, then called the vet to take the earlier appointment which was only an hour after she had arrived. My concern is only the snake's health and wellbeing! This could have been a worse thread if anything had happened BECAUSE the box was improperly labeled! I consider myself lucky (after reading all your replies) that a nose rub was the LEAST of my worries! After boosting her humidity to around 55 to 60%, her left eye is no longer dented. Her right eye still has a line on it, but I'm hopeful that it will smoothen out quickly.

 

[shelliebear]

Travis said he is upset about the nose but he took it to the vet and the vet did say it would heal....I think now that he knows it will heal, the main concern is to help enlighten others about the shipping, not deter people from buying from the guy but just enlighten them of his actions.
That's all. He's said numerous times he's disturbed about the nose rub but after a vet visit and lots of advice from another forum I frequent, I don't think it's the main issue at the moment...Helping others is.
Thanks for the info Travis/hooblah, I appreciate it a lot. I too have learned much from this thread and not just about the seller but lots of sellers in general! wow! Thanks again.

 

[H00blah]

Travis said he is upset about the nose but he took it to the vet and the vet did say it would heal....I think now that he knows it will heal, the main concern is to help enlighten others about the shipping, not deter people from buying from the guy but just enlighten them of his actions.
That's all. He's said numerous times he's disturbed about the nose rub but after a vet visit and lots of advice from another forum I frequent, I don't think it's the main issue at the moment...Helping others is.
Thanks for the info Travis/hooblah, I appreciate it a lot. I too have learned much from this thread and not just about the seller but lots of sellers in general! wow! Thanks again.

Greatly appreciated !

 

[meowmeowkazoo]

So if all the big name breeders jumped off a cliff, who else would go too?

Just because somebody is a successful reptile breeder doesn't mean they are exempt from the law. The attitude that "everyone else does it" is only going to cause further harm to our hobby, especially in the current atmosphere where organizations like HSUS are breathing down our necks waiting for us to make a mistake.

It only takes a little extra time, effort, and money to ensure that packages are shipped correctly (adhering to the lacey act and the fedex shipping guidelines). I've only ever received one or two packages that were not labeled appropriately, and if either of them had contained a damaged snake, I would be pretty upset.

I'm not sure if you mentioned it in this thread, but you did say that Richard refused to cover the vet bill for the nose rub. That combined with the improper labeling are enough that I'd want to know about it if I were choosing between him and another seller. So I thank you for this thread.

 

[H00blah]

So if all the big name breeders jumped off a cliff, who else would go too?

Just because somebody is a successful reptile breeder doesn't mean they are exempt from the law. The attitude that "everyone else does it" is only going to cause further harm to our hobby, especially in the current atmosphere where organizations like HSUS are breathing down our necks waiting for us to make a mistake.

It only takes a little extra time, effort, and money to ensure that packages are shipped correctly (adhering to the lacey act and the fedex shipping guidelines). I've only ever received one or two packages that were not labeled appropriately, and if either of them had contained a damaged snake, I would be pretty upset.

I'm not sure if you mentioned it in this thread, but you did say that Richard refused to cover the vet bill for the nose rub. That combined with the improper labeling are enough that I'd want to know about it if I were choosing between him and another seller. So I thank you for this thread.

Correct. He refused to pay the vet bill. I'm not really that upset about that because he said he doesn't really feel comfortable having me take the snake to a vet that he doesn't trust. I wouldn't be too thrilled if I sold a spider ball python to someone, and they took it to the vet because it was wobbling! If the customer takes the spider to the vet, and the vet doesn't really know too much about ball pythons and morphs, they might diagnose IBD without doing proper tests! The vet bill was just a checkup, so it was like 50 bucks which I is nothing compared to the peace of mind I got from hearing a vet I trust tell me that it should be fine in a few weeks, and probably gone after a shed or 2.

 

[Skiploder]

So if all the big name breeders jumped off a cliff, who else would go too?

Just because somebody is a successful reptile breeder doesn't mean they are exempt from the law. The attitude that "everyone else does it" is only going to cause further harm to our hobby, especially in the current atmosphere where organizations like HSUS are breathing down our necks waiting for us to make a mistake.

It only takes a little extra time, effort, and money to ensure that packages are shipped correctly (adhering to the lacey act and the fedex shipping guidelines). I've only ever received one or two packages that were not labeled appropriately, and if either of them had contained a damaged snake, I would be pretty upset.

I'm not sure if you mentioned it in this thread, but you did say that Richard refused to cover the vet bill for the nose rub. That combined with the improper labeling are enough that I'd want to know about it if I were choosing between him and another seller. So I thank you for this thread.

If we're going by Fedex guidelines (Live Animal Stickers/Markings AND business to business shipping only), then just about everyone is guilty.

As for the Lacey Act labeling (50 CFR 14), that is a separate issue. I can count on one hand the number of times in the the last 10 years that I have seen a live reptile shipment labelled in accordance with the Lacey Act.

Bottom line is that if this is about a brown box, improper Lacey act labelling and a missing Live Animal sticker, then the majority of people shipping reptiles are inflicting bad experiences on their customers.

If it's about an expensive animal with an undisclosed nose rub, then I get it.

 

[shelliebear]

I still think shipping is important. Better to do it the right way than to give our industry yet another bad name and reputation. We have enough of those. Shipping should be done right. I appreciate this thread.

 

[Slim]

If all it takes to make a bad experience is somebody not conforming to your idea of proper labeling, I'll pass

How about conforming to this little thing I learned about in school called THE FREAKING LAW... Where does that pop up on your radar scope?

I've seen sellers dragged by their testicles through 10 miles of broken glass for less on this forum.

I'm starting to understand some of the whispers around dark corners of the internet about the BOI becoming "who ya' know" club.

The attitude that "everyone else does it" is only going to cause further harm to our hobby, especially in the current atmosphere where organizations like HSUS are breathing down our necks waiting for us to make a mistake.

It only takes a little extra time, effort, and money to ensure that packages are shipped correctly (adhering to the lacey act and the fedex shipping guidelines).

I 100% agree with meowmeowkazoo. Unfortunately some people have no issues giving Rich a pass on his crap poor shipping practices.

Fine, I've already seen everything I need to see about how he does his business...seen the same thing about a few others as well.

Duces!

 

[shelliebear]

How about conforming to this little thing I learned about in school called THE FREAKING LAW... Where does that pop up on your radar scope?

I've seen sellers dragged by their testicles through 10 miles of broken glass for less on this forum.

I'm starting to understand some of the whispers around dark corners of the internet about the BOI becoming "who ya' know" club.



I 100% agree with meowmeowkazoo. Unfortunately some people have no issues giving Rich a pass on his crap poor shipping practices.

Fine, I've already seen everything I need to see about how he does his business...seen the same thing about a few others as well.

Duces!

Thank you Slim. I agree with you!

 

[Susan S.]

Certified Fedex shipper....

means you have agreed (and actually I had to sign for and provide a notarized statement) to ship according to Fedex rules. I shipped live snakes for many years through Fedex before getting certified. Once I learned about the certification process and then sent my box to Memphis for the "box test" and then passing the test, I took seriously my commitment to not only sell quality captive-bred ball python morphs, but to provide excellent customer service........which in my opinion, includes quality shipping. Fedex says I must label the box with "live harmless reptiles" and so does my Florida Fish & Wildlife Commission! I also require a signature. I tell my recipients that they MUST be home to receive the shipment and I require the signature for this purpose. I don't want the animal that I have nurtured and grown to fry on someone's doorstep. NO WAY is the seller of the clown a certified Fedex shipper!

I would not be happy receiving the snake with the nose rub that you received either. I think you handled it well, especially taking it immediately to the vet. You made the seller aware, he refused to pay any of the vet bill. In my opinion this forum is exactly the place you should be telling others of your experience with this seller. I personally will never buy from him!

 

[hhmoore]

The law? Considering that I label every one of my boxes according to the law; including the common name, scientific name, and quantity, I would say that the law is pretty high on my radar...

There is nothing in FedEx, IATA, or Lacey that suggests a brown box is unacceptable.
I don't know about Reptiles Express, but it is my understanding that using SYR enables person to person shipping...at least that was Robyn's claim when they started shipping using FedEx. On the other hand, I don't use SYR...but I ship hub to hub, so I'm well within the scope of my waiver - I just don't generally list that as a reason for WHY I ship the way I do.

I don't know Rich, and, quite frankly, I disagree with him quite a bit - so this is hardly "who ya know" issue. For what it's worth (nothing, really), I think that home cut styrofoam is generally messy and unprofessional looking. I think a 9x9x4 box was too small for that snake, and probably contributed to the condition in which it arrived. I think people SHOULD label in accordance with the law (which I have said from the start of this, even while acknowledging that it isn't done widely enough).
I don't know what the OP's "home forum" is, or what he initially discussed there - all I know is what he posted here, and that was stressing that the big deal was the lack of proper labeling. If he wants us to know that he said other things, he should post those things here for us to read. Rich refused to pay for the vet bill? I don't really have a problem with that - he offered a full refund, if the OP wasn't happy with the snake; and, IMO, if the buyer was unhappy, he should have taken him up on the offer.. Would I have paid for the vet visit? Irrelevant, but probably not...but I would have at least offered a bit of compensation for the condition of the snake, if the customer decided to keep it.

To the OP: I'm sure that seeing your new snake arrive in that condition was both disappointing and upsetting. Hopefully, it will quickly heal, and look as good as in the pictures that prompted your purchase. I may not fully agree with the emphasis you are putting on lack of the labeling, but I am actually impressed that this is the first shipment you've received that didn't have it. Maybe people are finally figuring it out.
Best of luck. (This should be my last post, unless something in this thread prompts my involvement as a moderator)