Robert Raasch -- Watch Out

[hemingway155]

I am waiting with bated breath to see some incriminating 'other emails' I left out. Mr. raasch's characterization of my unwillingness to take any payment other than paypal is ludicrous. Never at any point did I make that statement -- all I did was ask for paypal back, because that is what I tendered. I never knew it was my responsibility to propose EVERY payment method out there, and let Mr. raasch decide which was most convenient for him. As long as we're holding buyers to that standard, I also never offered to fly to meet mr. raasch and take cash in person, nor accept forfeit of his first-born son as payment. If paypal is so difficult for Mr. raasch to use, why wouldn't HE suggest using a money order? I thought I was being constructive in seeking out other options.

Just my two cents

kris

 

[shadiguy1]

these guys are right with paypal u said u had money in your bank accoun then it wouldnt matter if you had money actually in paypal or not it would withdraw it from your bank account.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Not to defend or attack either party but mention was made in an earlier post that Mr. Rasch stated that his PayPal account was no tied to a credit card. My understanding is that if you are only verified on a checking account, it Does take 4 days or so to transfer money. PayPal refers to it as an E-Check. I have dealt with the occasional buyer that is set up in this manner and it takes about 4 days to clear. My guess is that this is what Mr. Rasch was trying to communicate.

That said, my take on this situation is that Robert showed extremely poor business tactics in not alerting Kris at the earliest possible moment that he was not going to ship on the agreed upon date. Waiting for the buyer to contact you with a "did you ship?" before telling him was unacceptable except in the event of a dire emergency. "My car was screwed up" doesn't quite qualify.

On the other hand, it sounds like Kris definitely jumped the gun a bit by Posting so quickly here when the refund had been agreed upon and was supposedly in the mail. I don't think Roberts poor judgement warranted a "bad guy" Post. This sounds like something that was pretty much settled prior to Kris posting at all. In the event the refund failed to arrive, well, then you have another situation.

 

[hemingway155]

In my own defense, John's point would be apt had I posted following the payment being in the mail, but that offer wasn't even on the table on Mr. raasch's part until well after the posting started. As my first post acknowledges, the shipping of a money order was my suggestion, not his offer, and had not been responded to at the time of my first post. In fact, had Mr. raasch taken responsibility and agreed to expeditiously ship out a money order, the posting would have ended with a post from me acknowledging receipt of a refund. However, Mr raasch chose instead to become adversarial, impuning my right to post the details of our transaction on a public forum. Regardless, I see no reason why any honest merchant would mind having a transaction discussed openly. If the transaction went flawlessly and I loved the snake, I would have posted that as well, as I have in the past.


Kris

 

[hemingway155]

Just to keep everybody posted -- I just received a UPS tracking number, and I'll post again as soon as I receive th emoney order.

Kris

 

[BAREPAPABEAR]

Your right Kris you never refused any other type of payment just demanded the money to be returned to your paypal account. This is Not saying anything about a money order until after this post on the BOI. Oh and heil this didn;t start the other day it started YEASTERDAY!!! Kris Check your e-mail for your tracking number.
Here is your e-mail asking for the return of your money.
Hi there. I think I would prefer to have you return my paypal payment
on the ball python, I'll take my money elsewhere and you can sell the
snake to somebody else. A few reasons for this decision:

1) The price of $150 is slightly above the current average rate for a
possible het male, and if I am going to pay that much, I would expect
both an excellent animal and good communication/service.

2) I wasn't thrilled about your reluctance to ship last thursday,
although I would absolutely accept that, given your feelings about the
implications for the safety of the animal. However, I would expect
shipping on monday, especially since I paid you five days ago.

3) I understand that things come up, like fuel injectors, but I would
expect an up-front effort to deal with the situation, including very
early email, initiated by you.

4) As it is, I arranged to be home to receive the BP tomorrow, not
wednesday. I heard nothing to the contrary until afiter I emailed you
at almost 9 in the evening, local time.

I am confident you'll be able to find another buyer for the snake, and I
will find one elsewhere. My paypal account is [email protected].

Thanks

Kris

And here is your next e-mail

You can also do an intstant transfer from a bank account, verified with
a credit card, the same way I paid you. There is absolutely no reason
it should take that long, and I am unwilling to wait until monday,
especially when I was so quick to send you money. As far as I am
concerned, this unwillingness to either meet the terms of our contract
or provide customer service in good faith are absolutely unacceptable.
Additionally, this plces you in violation of the kingsnake.com terms of
service. I feel like I am being completely reasonable in just wanting
my money back after all the difficulties I have had in dealing with you.
I hope you can resolve the situation quickly and to our mutual
satisfaction.

Kris

These are the two e-mails trying to work thi out before you brought this issue to the Boi. Please show me where in these you say a Money order will work???

 

[HerpVenue]

You can also do an intstant transfer from a bank account, verified with a credit card, the same way I paid you. There is absolutely no reason it should take that long, and I am unwilling to wait until monday,

not everyone has a paypal that is verified by a credit card.
There is a reason it should take that long....it is called an e-check.
That is when paypal is only tied to a bank account and not a credit card. Next time you EXPECT someone to have a credit card handy....PROVIDE HIM WITH ONE.

True Robert should have communicated better.
Bt I think someone jumped the gun. The money order thing did not come up until the post was already made. True you are entitled to your money....but give it some time to get to you.

 

[hemingway155]

I am completely unclear why anybody would expect **me** to propose shipping a money order as a solution, as I ultimately did. You're absolutely right, my initial expectation was that refund would happen with paypal, as I simply assumed that any merchant who requests instant payment via paypal would have the capacity to reply in kind when the situation arose. I challenge anybody to pinpoint a location in this survey of my emails where I excluded other solutions. If Mr. raasch is so dedicated to customer service, wouldn't the appropriate response be "I don't have the capability to do instant transfer via paypal. How does a money order sound?" Not "it's your fault, I know you instantly tranferred money to me last week, how about a e-check and then wait for the money to be re-deposited to your bank account." Anyway, it's hopefully moot now, as a money order is en route.

Some folks may think it's jumping the gun, but at the time I made my initial post, Mr. Raasch and I had alreayd exchanged a few emails, and his general position was "wait for next week." That position rapidly changed when the issue became public. I chalk this one up as a victory for the BOI.

 

[BAREPAPABEAR]

Here is the thing. Kris e-mailed

From: Kris Stroup
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 12:12:11
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Het Ball Python

Here's the thing -- I can't take delivery tomorrow, because I already
took off work to take it today, per our original agreement, and by the
time I heard anything to the contrary from you, it was entirely too late
to change that.

This is by no means "a excuse to ask for your money back" and I resent
that suggestion, as I do the statement that this would all be taken care
of if I had agreed to accept shipment tomorrow. From my perspective,
this would all be taken care of if you had 1)shipped on time,
2)maintained prompt communication about your car shopping situation so I
could make arrangements to receive on wednesday, or 3)made any
good-faith effort to rectify the situation. You are engaging in
reprehensible business practices, with little remorse. When you agreed
to ship on monday, you entered into a contract to do so, and your breach
of that contract gives me every right to demand a refund. I can equally
suggest that this sounds like a ploy on your part not to promptly refund
my money.

If paypal is not a good option for you, I will accept a postal money
order or bank check overnight mailed to me, at the address previously
discussed. The management of the kingsnake.com ads have been apprised of
the situation and I will continue to make them aware of new
developments. I am hopeful that the situation can still be resolved
amicably, and I hope to hear from you soon.

Kris


And I emalied back at 1:58 pm on the same day:
I may be able to get out and pick up the money order for you tomorrow. If I can do this and overnight it to you will this solve the problem? I just wish there was other options then to send the money out today or have you contact kingsnake

My whole issure is that this was resolved aprotimately 3 or 4 hours before the post to fauna. If you look at the times of the e-mails and then compare them to the time Kris made his post this was as resolved situtaion and a "MUTE" ISSUE!!!! This problem was solved BEFORE this BOI post placement and has no result of it!!!! I hope witht htis proof people get off my a** and say they did it all. I resolved this issue before any of you got involved!!! Kris you jumped the gun!! You can post anything you want here BUT this issue Was Resolved before your post here and you said it was not!!!!

 

[BAREPAPABEAR]

Kris, You have told EVERYONE here you would keep them updated!!! So do it!!!! UPS is telling me someone at your house signed for the money order almost an hour ago!!! Update this BOI!!! Let everyone know!!! I just find it funny that you are quick to jump on me and quick to respond so everyone can see but when you get paid that takes some extra time to post!!! What is going on with this????

 

[Linda Demadura]

OK, I think I got it figured out.
The snake was supposed to be sent on Monday. It didn't get sent, so the buyer wanted a refund. Emails were sent, so that means there was some kind of "communication" still going on.
Now you and the buyer had come to an agreement on how the refund was to be sent on "Tuesday the 10th of Dec".
The buyer proceeded to post a warning about the seller the "same day" the agreement about the refund was setteled.
The seller sent the refund on the 12th of Dec and sent tracking number to buyer.
Now I guess the seller could have sent the refund on the 11th of Dec, but he sent it on the 12th.
That means the refund will come one day later than it actually could have "if" it had been sent on the 11th.
I just don't understand why the buyer is unhappy. He's getting a refund. To me it seems a reasonable amount of time. I mean he would have gotten the snake on the 11th. Instead he's going to get a refund on the 13th "if" it arrives on time.
I don't see why this thread was started in the first place. I would have given the seller, at least, 2 weeks "before" I started to worry. Anyway that's my opinion.

 

[BAREPAPABEAR]

Ok here it is. The final result was that I agreed to send Kris his money order out yesterday and to have it arrive today. It did and was signed for by someone with the last name STROUP at 9:01 am this morning. Kris and I had agreed on this before he started his posts on Fauna. He has said he wants to be open and honest with this board but has hidden the times of e-mails to be dishonest. I have sent the E-mails and times to this Board and hope everyone realizes what has happened here!! I May have overreacted to his request for a refund and said or done some things wrong and I admit that. I had this issue resolved in a timely manner and I was accused of not doing this. I hope this is over now. I am upset that my name was drug through the mud but maybe with the e-mails and times people WILL understand that this was resolved before the BOI post and in a timely manner.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Given the time of the posted email and the time of the opening post on this thread, I repeat that Kris definitely jumped the gun. The seller showed some faulty judgementin his business practices but, in my opinion, this thread should never have been started. Robert has repaired the error and was in the process of doing so when Kris began posting. Beginning this thread after an acceptable resolution had been offerred borders on the vindictive.

If Kris was genuinely simply interested in the opinion of the BOI on this situation, he could have posted a hypothetical without names. That would have accomplished the same thing.

 

[hemingway155]

I find this turn of events interesting. Yes, my wife signed for the package this morning when it arrived, and left voice mail at my office to tell me that it had arrived (we have established that I work). This is the first opportunity that I have had to post. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black here -- I get flamed for posting w/in 24 hours of admittedly poor business practices, and also for taking an hour to post about receiving a package.

Here's the bottom line. I don't think there can be any such thing as jumping the gun. I made no criminal allegations at any point. All I did was make public the circumstances of my transaction with a seller, constantly updating the board as that situation changed. Nothing was misrepresented.

Contrary to the suggestion, posting as a hypthetical would have solved nothing, as I wasn't asking "is it wrong for sellers not to ship on time, not communicate, not send money back promptly, and be rude?" I knew I did not like any of those things. As all I did was represent facts as they happened -- Mr. raasch has nothing to fear if I did jump the gun and he wasn't in the wrong (which is why I find his aggressive, profane reaction to this thread amusing -- A dealer doing all he can to be communicative and accommodating shouldn't have anything to hide). all any reasonable person has to do is look at his actions and decide if that is what they would like in a seller. It isn't what I would like, which is why I posted, and I think the board provided important leverage in achieving satisfactory outcome of a bad situation.

Kris

Just think -- If I had gotten a single email sunday evening or monday morning saying "sorry, I'm having problems on this end, is there any way we can reschedule to ship on tuesday?" There wouldn't have been a problem. Just goes to show -- it never hurts to be honest and take care of yor customers.

 

[hemingway155]

Hopefully my last word on the issue, but one more thing just occurred to me and I want to get it out there. Why is it generally assumed that a posting on the BOI automatically carries some overarching normative connotation? Obviously in this instance, I have an opinion one way or the other about the way Mr. raasch does business, and some businesses would prefer their customers not post as transactions are happening, but in my opinion, circumstances should be otherwise. This is an excellent forum for people who purchase reptiles to discuss those experiences. I doubt Neil would mind if I was in the middle of a transaction with him and posted that he replied promptly to emails, I paid via paypal, and he got me a tracking number after shipping on time, with the post to be updated upon receipt of animals -- just a description of a transaction as it is happening, so others know what they might expect.

Bad situations are also in many ways opportunities for businesses to show thier true character. If I could have posted that Mr. Raasch failed to ship on time but made every effort to fix that situation, I would have. He made the choice to be hostile to my request, and contrary to his assertion (look at my email post) hadn't agreed to anything by the time of my first post and initially rejected sending a money order. In my mind, he compounded his situation by assailing me for posting to the BOI, which fueled my further posts. I have no reason not to believe this hostility would have continued if not for fear that I would post his emails here. So you can advance whatever argument you like about my timing, but on this end, it seems an awful lot like this was the only way to achieve a satisfactory outcome.

Further, I find Mr. raasch's response pretty ironic. He admits that he made some bad choices as far as conducting business goes. There it is -- that's the point of this thread. I never accused Mr. raasch of trying to steal my money, only of being Uncommunicative, rude, and unwilling to help settle the issue expeditiously. He pretty much admits to all those things. If I shouldn't post those kinds of experiences, then I don't know what the BOI is for.

Kris

Kris

 

[BAREPAPABEAR]

And my only point is that you should wait and see how things work out before you accuse someone of something!!! We where trying to work it out and in fact had it worked out before you posted here!! You post should have said you don't agree with the way you where traeted but NEVER that it was gouing to take sooooo long to get your money back. That had all been fixed. Post what you like but the main conplaint by you was it was going to take a week to get your money back and taht had been fixed so it was a mute issue.Kris and Neil are claiming this as a victory for the BOI BUT I have to disagree!! This was worked out before the post and had nothing to do with it. Loud mouth Bullies make it hard sometimes to do the right thing. I did the right thing and just want that to be recognised. I also want it to be recognised that I did it of my own free will and not do to the threats of this BOI....

 

[Seamus Haley]

Kris and Neil are claiming this as a victory for the BOI BUT I have to disagree!! This was worked out before the post and had nothing to do with it. Loud mouth Bullies make it hard sometimes to do the right thing. I did the right thing and just want that to be recognised. I also want it to be recognised that I did it of my own free will and not do to the threats of this BOI....

Right then... Just a couple of points.

First, everything is an act of free will, even if death is threatened for non-compliance, you have options in every situation. If threatened with a seemingly negative post on the BOI, you have many options on how to deal with it, all of which you are allowed to freely decide upon yourself, one option is to do as you did, satisfy the customer in every legal obligation with regards to the money or goods involved. Had you decided to give the customer a miss on a refund, sent them some telephone books via UPS and then kinapped their children out of retribution, that would have been an act of free will too, there really is no such thing as coersion, especially not on an internet message board.

Now...

The only thing that has damaged your credibility in any manner Mr. Raasch, was your own conduct and that was certainly not a signifigant blow by any means. Your choice of words at certain points was... questionable at best for giving the impression of quality customer service. That being said, I do feel that Kris has done some measure of damage to their own credibility as well because of the time frame involved.

Is it unreasonable for a snake to not be shipped on the expected date because the seller decided to go car shopping after the buyer had arranged the day off from work?

Yes.

Is it going to happen anyway from time to time for whatever reason?

Yes.

Is it unreasonable to post a "Bad Guy" post or a warning post over an accident of this nature the same day that the problem occurs?

Maybe... while it's certainly with Kris's right to do so and while the information presented doesn't really seem to deviate too much, I do think that the speed with which he responded by creating this post and the tone set by the title was unwarrented but that is my personal feeling on the matter, much as it was his personal feeling that it deserved posting and I wouldn't attempt to remove his ability to do so (not that I have the power to anyway, this is purely hypothetical).

I also feel that he's done a bit of damage to himself here as well though, much as buyers excersize caution over sellers with repeated or severe problems, sellers will often excersize caution when dealing with a buyer who has a reputation for being difficult to deal with.

It is unreasonable to give a seller a suitable period of time to make a situation right before responding with a post titled "watch out" and carrying a strong implication that the seller listed is perfoming actions that would make buisness with them impossible or likely to result in missing money or property?

Not at all, while everyone's personal threshhold for dealing with a matter of this nature is certainly different, a certain suitable period of time needs to be given for either party to react to and correct any difficulties that happen to arise. I've said it before and I will say it again... I'd rather do buisness with a person who has made some mistakes but proved that they will fix them to or above the other parties satisfaction.

Both individuals may have made some mistakes here and better communication certainly could have fixed it before it came to this point but... I really don't see what the problem is now other than the resentment both feel towards the other over the actions involved...

Sure, the snake wasn't sent out and that is a problem... but a refund was issued in what the majority of people would consider a reasonable time frame after it was requested from the buyer.

Sure, the title of this post and the speed at which it was put up might have been a bit of an overreaction to the events but the content of the thread certainly explains the situation clearly and nobody really ends up looking all that bad (i.e. any post about Jesse Undehill) after the situation is sorted out...

Both parties took a bit of a small knock but there was nothing done that will have any signifigant ramifications on anybody's ability to conduct buisness and there is no further contention about animals or money being where it doesn't belong...

So why turn it into a playground fistfight? I hate to be condescending here but... You guys need to shake hands and at least pretend to be able to tolerate one another, bandwidth ain't free (said as I use more of it myself) and there isn't a reasonable complaint involved to keep this going in the direction it's headed. Going back and forth at this point is just juvenile and useless, nothing will be accomplished except both parties going down in flames as people repeatedly see them acting like children, everyone can make mistakes and everyone can react badly for a period of time, that's just human nature but continuing after everything that needs to be said has been said after it becomes obvious that neither party is going to alter their position and suddenly admit to doing something wrong (nobody did anything wrong, there were just mistakes made) is just plain foolish.

 

[Adam Block]

I didn't read this whole post so I have no clue what's been said. I would only like to comment on my dealing with Robert as I'm a firm believer in not speaking if you haven't dealth with the person.

Robert and I worked out a deal to trade a little Palm Pilot type thing for three Bairds rats. He said he would ship the item right out and it was sent and got here LONG before I was expecting it. He must have shipped the same day we spoke. The item came packed very well and it great condition. I had some questions for him and he answered my emails quickly and extreemly well.

I've also spoken with him and the phone more then once and he's been a very enjoyable person to talk with. I know I didn't get any animals from him and Electronics and Reptiles aren't the same but I felt I had to comment as my dealing with him far exceeded my expectations!

Thanks for reading,
Adam Block

 

[Gary Walsch]

I think you guys are being a bit hard on Robert. From having several dealings with him in the past, twice he purchased from me with no problems and one time I purchased a Hogg Island female from him with no picture but just his assurance " You won't be dissappointed ! ". Well I was very pleased with the hogg and thought she was spectacular ! I think evryone jumped the gun a bit and I think Robert should have been given more time and options in order to solve this problem and this whole thing sounds like a simple misunderstanding that was turned into a nightmare. Just my humble opinion.

Gary