Bad Guy RodentPro- Zoonotic disease warning

[jumpsnake]

WebSlave,
I entirely agree with you-- in fact I mentioned to the health dept. people that anyone who has a career with animals is (or at least should be) well aware that many many zoonotic diseases exist. I remember an entire section of my wildlife biology class on it.

Anyone who works with animals should indeed use universal precautions and also be educated about the possibility. That is why I attempted to make clear that I really was not upset that the problem occurred in the first place. My problem is that I do not feel RP acted responsibly by not telling anyone about this. How do they know I don't have a pregnant woman caring for our rodent colony? (I don't, but they didn't call to check is my point.)

Also, I wanted to check in as the OP and tell you that I have not heard anything today about whether or not we received the diseased rodents. Our last shipment was right in the time zone where we certainly could have-- I did call the epidemiologist and leave a message. I will update here with whatever new info I get.

Regarding frozen rodents-- from what I understand it is a very reduced risk. My concerns were as follows:
1. Do you keep your frozen snake food in your human food freezer? I don't now, but I did in college. I think some particulate feces on the outside of the rodent bag coming in contact with your ice cream is not a great idea. I hope people are more careful than this anyway, but still.
2. Dropping a mouse or feces on the floor accidentally when thawing, and then a child puts their hand in that spot. Then said hand goes into the mouth. I am unclear on whether or not the virus could live in through this scenario, but since I do not know it can't happen it is safer to assume it could.

There are other possible scenarios I can think of where frozen may potentially be a problem-- this is why I felt that the community as a whole deserved to know. It is not my intention to blow it out of proportion- and I think being rational and thinking things through is always a good idea. However, people deserve the opportunity to decide what they feel comfortable with personally. I am attempting to give them that option.

 

[jumpsnake]

Sorry to double post-- I didn't see a way to edit.

Wraith-- I am not sure who all the CDC is trying to track down- I am not privy to that info. However, anyone who purchased rodents at shows does not have a paper trail tied to them. There is no way the CDC could track those folks down if they wanted to. See my comments above regarding frozen.

 

[rosebud945]

My concern is that it appears that some people here seem to not realize that EVERY animal is going to have pathogens associated with it

Yes, and as I said, so do human animals. I keep lots of lizards and a few birds, and they have never made me sick in spite of having immune system issues, but last year, my biggest lupus episode was caused because a care worker who helps me with my mother brought what was a mild to moderate airborne stomach virus to my house. I have never gotten sick from an animal that I know of because I am very careful and mindful of personal hygiene and very hyper aware of what might end up in my air space, but being around people seems like a bigger threat, to me.

However, RP should have informed their customers that they had a known zoonotic virus at their facility, should have included a fact sheet about the disease with that disclosure, and should have assured people that they were doing what they needed to do to eradicate the disease, IMO. That is how I would have handled the situation if that was my facility.

 

[Guy Castro]

Seriously, does anyone here think that working with ANY live animals"IN ANY WAY,SHAPE OR FORM"[/FONT]does NOT expose you to zoonotic organisms?

I have never ever been exposed to any zoonotic organisms by any of my imaginary LIVE animals!!!

 

[rtdunham]

So how does this affect everyone's thinking about government regulation? Some will thank the stars there's a CDC checking up on things like this. Others will say the government should keep its hands off private business and let the marketplace separate the good and bad. It's an interesting, thought provoking situation, no?

 

[Lucille]

So how does this affect everyone's thinking about government regulation? Some will thank the stars there's a CDC checking up on things like this. Others will say the government should keep its hands off private business and let the marketplace separate the good and bad. It's an interesting, thought provoking situation, no?

An excellent idea for one of the discussion forums. Perhaps you could start a thread there.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

Failure to prevent, Failure to inform, both issues that are telling in and of themselves.

Disease does not pop in out of thin air, it must have a vector. In this case it was more than likely a wild mouse infected with the virus that gained access to the mouse racks, and either urinated on the captive mice or left droppings that transmitted the disease.

The transmission of this virus to captive populations of mice was a preventable event, in my own home there are three doors between my mice and outside, four if you count the storm door at the main entryway.

I take every practical precaution available to me to prevent illness in my colony, I do so because it matters to me. I have a fairly good relationship with our vet and have my rodents checked twice a year for health, all toll this increases my cost slightly but not to the point where breeding my own is more expensive than Rodent Pro which does not take similar precautions (obviously).

It is their lack of foresight and lack of concern for customer safety and security that gives me reason to not trust the company as a whole.

While Rodent Pro does not sell live directly to the public with the intention of those animals becoming pets, they do sell to companies that resell to pet shops that do. Mice often end up in close proximity to childrens faces, and ultimately children do not always A) do as they are told B) wash their hands prior to jamming them in their mouths of the mouths of others.

A small unnecessary risk is and always will be UNNECESSARY. When that small risk comes to fruition and a child is lost, or a mother, or ... what then? Do we explain to that childs mother that her daughter was just part of what was considered a small risk?

If that is your stance, I feel you are wrong.

My stance is to deny them my business, deny them my recommendation as a good company, and as is my prerogative to inform those whom ask why I feel the way I do.

Maurice Pudlo

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

Here is a direct link to the Facebook conversation regarding Rodent Pro, I messed up the last one sorry.

http://m.facebook.com/groups/266689903396451?view=permalink&id=360800330652074&ref=bookmark&_rdr

Maurice Pudlo

 

[Kurohyo]

Recently I received an e-mail from the Illinois Falconers' Association, and I'll be sure to talk to him about where he got his info from. Here's the e-mail :

"It has been brought to our attention that the Board of Animal Health
identified a serious Lymphocytic Choriomeningitis outbreak in southern
Indiana at "RodentPro". As we are aware that some falconers purchase mice,
quail and chicks for their hawks from this facility, we are alerting you of
what we have learned.

Lymphocytic Choriomeningitis known as LCM or LCMV is a rodent-born viral
disease that affects nearly five percent of the mice population. Humans
exposed to the viral disease can become quite ill.

We encourage you to check out the following three links (below) to learn
more. At this time, the information found on these two links is the extent
of what we know. If you have purchased any animals from RodentPro, we
encourage you to read the information on the following links and use your
own judgement and discretion regarding how best to proceed.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334751

http://www.farmworldonline.com/news/NewsArticle.asp?newsid=14991

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/lcmv.htm"

 

[Morph2187]

It is impossible to insure that absolutely no mouse urine/feces etc make it into your facility. The bedding, feed, and other materials could bring in small amounts without anyone being able to notice. The humans that work in the facility could have been asymptomatic carriers that picked the disease up at home or in there day to day lives and brought it in unknowingly. To me the fact that this disease found its way into their colonies(or any colony of this magnitude) was more or less inevitable.

The big issue to me is that once they were alerted of its existence they did not halt sales, inform those who had recently purchased from them, and made available the information on their website for those who purchased from them at shows etc. If the problem had been handled in that regard or some similar fashion I would have no problems at this point what so ever.

 

[bmwilliamson0406]

I live in Dallas TX and there is a place I go to for my feeders. The name is Big Cheese Rodent Factory. Their customer service is awesome. The prices are good. I am not sure of the shipping as I pick up since I am an hour away. Just wanted to put that on here for some people as an alternative.

 

[Wraith]

Again.. .why are people bashing JUST rodent pro? why are you not also bashing the OTHER company that was caught up in the quarantine as was implied earlier in the thread? And what are the odds that any rodent breeder would be forthcoming that they too have this virus in their populations? There are so many pathogens that rodents (animals in general) carry there is NO WAY that you can honestly test for every damn one of them with any kind of accuracy and there is no way to have a pathogen free colony. The only thing that anyone can outright honestly take RP to task for is the lack of communication, but then again... if the CDC didn't think it was necessary to issue any public announcements/warnings then the "issue" was NOT that big of a deal as people are trying to make this out to be. This is not an illness that kills people with any kind of frequency. Gawd.. some of you sound as ridiculous as legislators trying to pass laws saying that only 100% certified salmonella free turtles may be sold in the pet trade... an impossible feat for a disease that is far more dangerous than LCMV. If you are that freaking concerned about LCMV that infects maybe 1% of the people that come into contact with the virus (but still no guarantee you will even exhibit symptoms even if infected) then get rid of all your animals and go live in a hermetically sealed bubble for the rest of your life.

 

[womsterr]

Wraith - I think it's abundantly clear why people here are questioning RodentPro.

1 - 99% of the information that has been uncovered so far has been regarding Rodent Pro. If you have more information about the other entity, please post a link.

2 - RodentPro probably has 1000 times the customer base with herpers here when compared to Mouse House - in fact I've never heard of them.

Further - it is not a question of blaming them for the outbreak. The problem, as has been clearly outlined, is that no clients were notified even after an infestation so bad as they were quarantined and forced to exterminate their entire stock. That IS a huge issue. There are plenty of folks who have suppressed immune systems. I had a person in my home for a few years in that position. Ultimately - over 17% of Rodent Pro's workforce was infected according to the story. If that is something you feel warrants no attention, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But most here will disagree with you.

 

[stevek123]

I couldn't read through all the post, it's alot, but I will say this about RP. I have been buying from them for 6 years. I buy rats in all sizes except large and up. My last order was I think in April. The last two or 3 orders I noticed that their Quality had gone down. Some Rats were yellow stained and several rats looked very thin, several also had major injurys that looked severe but were healed (most likely bite/attack marks for other rats). As luck would have it I went to order last week and Curtis told me they are flat out busy as several of their competitors had gone out of business. And since they were so busy he would not pass on to me any shipping or product discounts. In six years I always been givin a $10 shipping discount, long story short I told him I'd hold off for now. Then I hear ab out this.
I started looking around and found a great supplier out of texas, a bit more expensive, but WOW, I got the rats today and you can tell this guy really cares. All rats neatly tail tucked on trays and vacuum packed. Rock solid frozen. Impeckable shipping box in in quality rigid blue insulation, not cheap plastic covered fiberglass, and the box was well taped using quality packing tape, not the cheaper stuff too. There was such a huge difference in rat quality, that I couldn't believe I actually bought fom RP all these years. This guy breeds every on of his rats too. I heard recently that rodent pro does NOT necessarily breed all their rats but also buys overstock from other breeders as well. I doubt I will ever go back to BP.

 

[Megpie]

I was planning on placing an order with RodentPro whenever I decide to switch to frozen/thawed, but I'm glad I read this first... I think I'll just keep breeding my own.

 

[Winter]

I ordered from RP for years, but I also found issues with decreasing quality over time in the form of urine/feces/shavings in the bottom of the bags and stuck to the rats themselves, damaged rats, etc. I don't know if this is because they outsourced some or what. Some bags had severed limbs or tails stuck to the rats or at the bottom of the bag also.

Now I order from Loxahatchee Rodents and have been VERY happy with their service and product. I still have a couple of old bags from RP in the chest freezer and there is just no comparison between the two suppliers. The rats from LR have been immaculate/look healthy and are vacuum packed. When I thaw out a bag, they don't all stick to each other. Their coats are clean and sleek. Every tray is organized and labelled. I should take a pic and post it- it looks very professional and what I now expect in terms of quality. For the record, I am not affiliated with with LR in any way- I just like the way they do business.

Regarding RP and potentially contaminated stock, didn't Mice Direct issue a voluntary recall a few years back for possible Salmonella in their rodents because it MAY pose a possible risk? I agree that having animals of any kind predisposes the keepers to possible contamination from bacteria, viruses, etc., but the same thing is true when you eat out at a restaurant or do anything, really. I would expect the restaurant that I am eating at to take away my plate if they suspect they might have an issue with something on it, even if the risk is minimal and nothing ever comes of it. They should also let me know what is going on because it is the ethical thing to do (at least from my POV).

I am still having my morning coffee so hopefully this makes sense, but even if LCM may have an exceedingly low mortality, that isn't really the point anymore. Even if nothing ever comes of it, customers could've/should've been given a head's up, particularly before an epidemiologist starts making calls/visits. I think a lot of people here are upset not because their was a contamination, but rather how RP decided to handle it. I could be way off base, but that is the gist of what I am getting from this thread.

Lauren Hendricks

 

[rcarichter]

If they really have 9 workers who are testing positive for a potentially deadly illness, and have to cull $750k in inventory, I can see why they're not throwing statements around on a public forum. They're probably doing exactly what these 9 guys' lawyers are telling them to do. Not saying it's an excuse, but maybe a reason.


Noelle

 

[Lucille]

Regarding frozen rodents-- from what I understand it is a very reduced risk.

I'd really like to see some studies cited here. From the articles I've seen online viruses can survive freezing, I'd like to see specific scientific information that backs up the reduced risk claim. Lots of people have Rodent Pro rodents in their freezer right now, they should know what to expect.

 

[cguarino30]

I'd really like to see some studies cited here. From the articles I've seen online viruses can survive freezing, I'd like to see specific scientific information that backs up the reduced risk claim. Lots of people have Rodent Pro rodents in their freezer right now, they should know what to expect.

The reduced risk is more with respect to parasites and bacteria, which in most cases will not survive freezing, and are much more likely to infect humans. Viruses often do survive freezing, but it is very rare when viruses are able to jump from one species to another. This Zoonotic disease is one of those rare cases in which a virus can infect both rats and people, and that it why it is an issue.

Generally speaking, though, frozen rodents are less likely to carry live pathogens that can infect human beings, as the more commonly caught ones (parasites and bacteria) generally don't survive freezing, and the viruses that do survive are almost always not able to cross over to infect other animals (notably humans)

 

[Lucille]

and the viruses that do survive are almost always not able to cross over to infect other animals (notably humans)

Chris, can you please cite evidence for this claim? It is a central concern and so far I have not seen ANY scientific evidence.