Roy ([email protected])---- Bad buyer (Beware)

[CDAreptiles]

I dont like to come onto the BOI and leave negative messages about anyone however this time I feel that is necessary.

A few weeks ago I placed a few lizards up for adoption on a local website. These were lizards I had rescued both recently and a while back. I am a snake breeder and know very little about lizards therefore I did not feel like the most appropriate person to keep these animals. Give me a snake and I know everything. Give me a lizard and I know nothing. I am not at all afraid to admit that. Anyways back to the story:

Here is the exact ad I placed:

"I have an Adult carrot tail leopard gecko, a tarantula, and an adult frilled dragon. I am giving them for FREE to a good home. The frilled dragon has a $30 adoption fee all others are completely FREE (to a good caring home only) I can sell their enclosures for a small fee also. Please call or email if interested. I am located in Gainesville, Florida. Animals must be picked up. No shipping."

The frilled dragon had a small adoption fee because as far as I know he is an animal that requires a little more care than all others and I wanted to ensure that he went to a good home.

I received many inquiries and in no time both the gecko and tarantula were gone. I received a few inquiries about the frillies, but it was all people who didnt know what the animal was so I decided it would be best to wait and find someone who knew how to care for it. So yesterday (sunday, Oct. 7) Roy contacts me about the frilled. The conversation was very short. It went something like this:

Roy: Hi I'm calling about the frilled dragon. Is it still available?
Me: Yes it is
Roy: I was wondering how old it was. Male or female?
Me: The animal is for sure an adult, but in terms of sex I really dont know. I am a snake breeder and know very little about lizards.
Roy: Is the lizard healthy?
Me: As far as I know yes. He eats well. Climbs. Run. And even scares away the cat.
Roy: Where are you located? I would like to come by and see it.

After this he simply took my adress and informed me that he would be at my house in two hours. I waited for him and when he called again asking for direction I very patiently directed him in the right direction.

Ealier that day I had moved the frilled from his normal 40 gallon custom built cage (complete with a UVB lamp) to a smaller 20 gallon tank since someone was coming to pick up the lizard. When Roy arrived I was already holding the animal. Saying my last goodbyes. Roy walked in the house and (in a bad, rude mood might I add) proceeded to hold and inspect the animal. He didnt say much and asked me basic questions which I wasn't really able to answer due to my lack of knowledge. (I persisted that I knew nothing about animals. I simply followed what I read on frilled dragon care sheets online). After inspecting the animal Roy gave me the adoption fee. States he was very satisfied and walked away.

Today Roy sent me a message claiming that the animal has many physical problems and demands that I give him a complete refund, pay for his gas, and recompensate him for the waste of time for the drive he had to endure. I very politely emailed him back restating that I knew very little about lizards and that when he came to see the animal he should have said something and not purchased the animal. I felt threatened and extremely disrespected by his accusations, but offered a complete refund if the animal be returned as he got it. He emailed me back a few minutes ago claiming that he expects a full ratification and that if I dont give him what he wants he is taking matter into his own hands.

I am not here to be the judge of who is right and wrong, but I feel in this situation I did what I could and I am simply trying to advise other sellers. If anyone reads this until this point give me some feedback on whether I dealt with this situation correctly or if I did something that should not have been done.

Below is the complete email exchange:

I never claimed the animal was healthy. You simply
asked me if he looked healthy and to me he does. He
runs around, climbs, eats, frills, etc. I am not a
store. I am a hobby breeder. I dont do this for a
profit. Simply fun. You bought a $200 dollar animal
for $30. I specifically said this monitor was a rescue
and that I dont deal with lizards or know anything
about them. I made that clear when you purchased the
animal. You could have chosen not to purchase the
animal when you saw it however you purchased it
anyways. I am giving you the ratification I feel is
fair, if you choose not to accept it than I wash my
hands clean and ask you to stop contacting me about
this matter.

--- Lena Whittaker <[email protected]> wrote:
So it is my fault the seller/breeder "you" told me the animal was in good health before I even started driving up there yet you claim to know nothing about the animal, but now you are claiming to know enough to use a UVB blub on him and with the animals state of health and his advanced MBD it is contradicting everything if you had a UVB bulb on him the least it would have done in 2 years would have been to firm up his bone structure and yet his jaw is still plyable. When I choose to make a drive to get an animal why would I make that far of a drive for a sickly animal unless the breeder (YOU) stated "he is in good health" but yet you could not inform me of the large hump on his spine and yet you feel you have not done anything wrong? As far as your ideal of ratification I can spend anoth 45$ in gas to come get a refund on a 30$ animal or i could spend roughly 40$ for fedex overnight shipment how is this ratification in the end I would be out 90+ $ just for gas/fedex just get a 30$ refund. I am highly displeased but if this is how you chose to run you store then so be it. I will resolve this matter in other ways if that is what you would rather me do.
Roy
----- Original Message ----
From: Caina Avila <[email protected]>
To: Lena Whittaker <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 8, 2007 4:29:47 PM
Subject: Re: The frilled dragon you sold me...

Like I informed you I dont deal with lizards. I dont
know anything about them. I am a snake breeder and
importer. I did not keep the animal in a 15-20 gallon
tank. He was there for 1 day because someone was
coming to get him. He was kept in a custom built 40
gallon cage which I pointed out when you asked. He had
a reptisun UVB bulb which cost me $50. You made the
200 mile drive because you chose to do so. No one made
you buy this animal. You as a buyer should have known
what you were buying before doing so especially when
the seller clearly stated he knew absolutely nothing
about lizards. In terms of ratification I dont feel it
is my duty to do anything since I never once lied to
you. I clearly stated many times that I knew nothing
about lizards even less about frilled dragons. You
asked me what the bump was and I said I have no idea
it is your choice to buy it or not.

What I am willing to do is give you a refund for the
animal if you bring or ship him to my home in the same
condition he was sold to you. Otherwise I am sorry you
should have known what you were buying before buying
it!

Thanks,
CDAreptiles

--- Lena Whittaker <[email protected]> wrote:

> Yes hello this is Roy the person who came by your
> place to buy the frilled dragon on 10-7-07. When
> I called you before makeing the drive up I asked you
> if the frilled dragon was healthy and if it was
> showing any signs of MBD (Metabolic Bone Disease)
> you informed me that he was in good health. I asked
> you this question so I would not make a 200 mile
> roude trip useing 50$ in gas and another 30$ for the
> animal for a unhealthy animal. Well after getting
> home I took the frilled dragon to a specialist he
> has informed me that the frilled dragon has the
> worst case of advanced MBD he has come across,
> malnourished, and a possible severe case of
> bacterial infection (further testing required) and
> give the animal 6-12 months to live at best. I feel
> I have been defrauded by you being a reptile
> breeder/importer by allowing me to make the drive
> all the way up there and buy the amimal under a
> false claim of being perfectly healthy and eating.
> There is little hope for
> the animal and knowing you kept him for 2+ years in
> a 15-20gal tank with just a spot/heat light (no uvb
> light)... I dont like feeling like I have been
> defrauded and waisting my money and time. I would
> like to know how you plan to rectify the situation.
>
> Roy.
>

 

[CDAreptiles]

There are a lot of typos. Wrote this in a little bit of a rush (I apologize), but this is a major typo I want to fix:

(I persisted that I knew nothing about animals. I simply followed what I read on frilled dragon care sheets online). After inspecting the animal Roy gave me the adoption fee. States he was very satisfied and walked away.

What I meant to write is:

(I persisted that I knew nothing about lizards. I simply followed what I read on frilled dragon care sheets online). After inspecting the animal Roy gave me the adoption fee. Stated he was very satisfied and drove away with his two kids whom he had left locked in the car while he talked with me.

 

[Wilomn]

Caina, the guy is an idiot.

Ignore him and hopefully he'll go away.

He made the decision to take the lizard.

It's his and his responsibility.

You did the best you could.

 

[Nagini]

One thing you have to watch, is if he does give it back to you, make sure it is the same animal. I did a trade with a store owner, probed female and I've seen her breed. he sold her off to a breeder, breeder claimed it was male and sent it back. When it got back, it was mysteriously suddenly a male.

This is one of the reasons I right up adoption contracts when I adopt anything out, so these sticky matters dont come up.

As for the person, I dont know them, sorry, just thought I'd speak a bit from my own experience though

good luck

 

[critical bill]

"These were lizards I had rescued both recently and a while back. I am a snake breeder and know very little about lizards therefore I did not feel like the most appropriate person to keep these animals."

If you don't know anything about lizards then you really shouldn't be rescuing them for placement in permanent homes. I really question the legitimacy of your acting as a rescue shelter. You did not verify that this guy actually knew anything about the care of the animal he was adopting and nor did you verify if even had the right setup for the long term care of the animal.

This is the sort of trouble you are going to run into when you act as a rescue shelter for the sole purpose to acquire some free snakes.

I mean....how do feel you rescued an animal to send it off with a person with whom you don't even know can meet the basic criteria to care for it?

 

[bryanbarrs]

Adoption

I hardly ever post on here but look every day. The first thing I want to comment on is about the rescue itself. I appreciate that you probably had good intentions when you took it in, but to keep it for two years and claim you know nothing about them is not fair to the animal. I am mainly a snake person myself. If I take an animal in and become responsible for it you can bet I would be getting some books about it or going online and talking to experienced keepers about it and probably a trip to the vet too. I don't believe you should adopt an animal out or sell one unless you are 100% sure it is healthy. Not trying to sound harsh, just my opinion of how it should have been.
As far as the adoption by Roy, at this point all you have are his emails and no hard proof that anything is even wrong with the animal. If he can provide proof that the MBD is as bad as he says, I would send him his thirty dollars. He looked it over so the rest is on him provided he was informed in advance that you didn't know enough about the animal to tell whether it was healthy or not. If he can prove that this animal is sick and beyond help, I would have him bring it to a vet and have it put down, and reimburse him for time and gas for that trip. The vet bill for putting it down should go to you, because after keeping it for two years its condition would probably be from your husbandry. The first visit was his choice, so he pays. Sometimes good intentions get expensive. So do good deals. I have based my opinion on what you have posted so far being the truth. I don't know you so don't have any reason to disbelieve what's been posted so far.
Don't beat me up too bad guys.

Bryan Barrs

 

[bryanbarrs]

Everybody types faster than me!

Bryan Barrs

 

[CDAreptiles]

Just clearing up some details....

I appreciate all the replies so far....

Just to clear up one detail:

I am not a rescue shelter in any way shape or form. Many people localy know I own reptiles and I get a constant number of calls asking me to take in unwanted animals. I DONT ACCEPT ANY ANIMALS. I am not looking for free animals in any way shape or form. I have paid for every animal I have (spent $7000 on snakes this year alone). I came across and "rescued" these lizards only because they belonged to a very close friend who was going through a very difficult time and begged me to take the animals in. I admit I made a mistake in taking in animals when I knew little about them, but for the two years the animals were in my posession I followed exact specifications which I read online. I fed the right way, provided the right temperatures for every animal and necessary lighting. All animals were feeding, shedding, and acting as care sheets described they would do so in my ignorance I thought the animals were in perfect condition. The reason I decided to adopt them out now instead of two years ago is that I needed the space which they were taking up and decided that it would be best to find them a new home rather than move them to smaller enclosures. No I never felt I was the most appropriate person to have these animals, but as I previously stated they seemed fine therefore I felt I was doing the right thing after all.

 

[critical bill]

But you do in fact become a rescue shelter when you rescue animals of any sort and give them shelter. You use the term "adoption fee" which most rescue shelters use in terms of accepting payment and placement of rescued animals. Hence my labeling you a rescue shelter.

You claim to be a hobby breeder and do this simply for fun and not for profit. However since June 07 you've been searching high and low here and everywhere for an exporter of reptiles. You also state clearly to Roy in your email reply that you are a breeder/importer.

Which is it? Are you a hobbyist breeder who does this for fun or are you a breeder/importer who does this for profit? Are you importing animals to resell for profit or are you just importing quantities of animals cheaply to build up your own collection?

 

[JudyC]

Why not just offer to send him the $30 he paid for the lizard and let him keep the animal? Then maybe you can both wipe your hands of the matter and walk away less-than-happy-but-not-totally-unhappy.

 

[JudyC]

Just to clarify my thoughts a little more....I, personally, would not feel responsible to pay for his gas or time or vet bills. HE made the choice to take the risk on a "too good to be true" deal and drive out to your place to buy the lizard. He took your word on its health before making the drive...but he also examined the animal himself and decided at that time that it was worth buying. If the animals problems could not be detected by someone who supposedly knows more about them than you do...then how could he expect you to have recognized them before the sale?

$30 is not such a large sum of money that it is worth risking your repuation or your personal security over. Offer the man back the money he paid for the animal and hope that he decides that a "free" frilled lizard was worth the drive and vet bills. Usually when someone is willing to meet someone partway in a dispute like this, it is enough.

 

[Jbreddawg]

What a total moron !! You know, theres one "or a few !! " in every crowd . I do not feel your responsible to give him back anything . Regardless of how you kept the animal , regardless of your knowledge of lizards ,regardless of anything. He himself , nobody else , came and looked at the lizard. He made the choice at that moment to take on the responsibility . You gave no warranty , and implied none. I feel you were also upfront with him .
I've sold some things on ebay that I considered a flat out STEAL !! And every once in awhile someone will still complain ! Some people are just miserable sob's ! And nothing you do can make them happy .I would make a last effort and offer a half refund and let him keep the lizard. Only option period , if he doesn't like it ? Tough ! You don't owe him nothing ..

 

[critical bill]

Jerry,

She rescued an animal that she kept for two years and placed it up for adoption. In the two years she's had this animal she didn't even know enough about the animal to question the new owner what he knew about it. It was passed off for a quick $30 bucks and to make space for things she was more interested in.

If he can produce a vet report that supports his claim of MBD then he deserves a refund of $30. And if it so happens that he can produce a vet report then he essentially rescued a rescue animal from a rescuer and is completely deserving of the $30.

If you cant see that you're blind.

And...."regardless of she kept the animal" "regardless of anything" ??? Are you a shmuck? You rescue an animal and its your obligation to house the animal appropriately. Its why your charging an adoption fee in the first place.

 

[bryanbarrs]

You took care of it under the guidance of care sheets for a couple of years and it had "the worst case of MBD the "specialist" had ever seen"? I would make him prove it. He might be trying to scam you. You shouldn't worry about anything at this point but the health of the animal.

Bryan

 

[CDAreptiles]

I am an importer/breeder, but that has been to build up my collection. So far all I have bred are a few snakes, but this past year I searched high and low for new animals to import because they have been nearly impossible to find in the states. I ended up settling on some specimens from Africa, Brazil, and Asia. Never once did I say I was importing to sell. Sometimes I get something I decide I dont want and end up selling it, but I have never made enough to call it any form of business. Yes I am hoping to start breedig more heavily and turn this hobby into a business, but up until now it is far from that.

In terms of the words I used like "adoption fee" and "rescue" I do not feel this labels me as an animal shelter in any way shape or form!

To everyone who said I should just send him the money back and let him keep the animal, I took that into account today and offered exactly that, but he has not responded. I will update if he does or not.

I would just like to reiterate that I was completely upfront with this guy every time we spoke. I never once lied or left anything unanswered. I was always honest and straight up and made it clear MANY times that I knew very little about lizards and that I bred and kept only snakes.

The point of this post was to get information on what the reptile community felt should be done in a situation like this and to warn others in case Roy ever contacts anyone wanting to purchase an animal. I have kept snakes for years, but only recently started dealing with other breeders. I am learning what I can to hopefully make this into a succesful business. I appreciate each and every response and hope that what is left on this thread will help many as much as it is helping me.

Thanks

 

[CDAreptiles]

P.S. Roy cannot produce a vet report.

 

[CDAreptiles]

I questioned Roy to the extent I knew about the animal. Like I said on the initial post: "I turned down many people before Roy because they didnt even know what a frilled dragon was" I asked Roy the little I knew about Frillies and since he answered all the questions and claimed to have had Frillies before I felt he was fitting to keep the animal. The animal was not passed for a quick $30. To be honest when I can spend $7000 on snakes I think $30 is the least of my worries!

 

[critical bill]

P.S. Roy cannot produce a vet report.

Did you email Roy with a link to this thread you started so as to allow us to here his side of the story?

If he cant produce a report I'd like to hear that directly from him.

 

[CDAreptiles]

Like I said Roy has ceased all contact. Wont reply to emails or answer phone calls. If he has the link or not I dont know. He wont asnwer!

 

[critical bill]

I questioned Roy to the extent I knew about the animal. Like I said on the initial post: "I turned down many people before Roy because they didnt even know what a frilled dragon was" I asked Roy the little I knew about Frillies and since he answered all the questions and claimed to have had Frillies before I felt he was fitting to keep the animal. The animal was not passed for a quick $30. To be honest when I can spend $7000 on snakes I think $30 is the least of my worries!

If $30 was the least of your worries why did you argue with him about refunding anything?

You say you questioned Roy to the extent you knew about the animal. But you realize you also said this in your initial thread starter: "Give me a lizard and I know nothing. I am not at all afraid to admit that."

The guy took your word for it that the animal was healthy and you do freely admit you know nothing about lizards. Could he be the sort of guy who is simply shy and non confrontational and paid you the money just to get the animal out of your home and hands? Its possible. Just because you got here first and claim he cant produce a vet report doesn't mean its not true and you're right.

Since I moved down to Florida do you know how many "reptile & bird rescue" folks I've met. Its almost laughable. You can move down here with no collection and have enough to stock a store in a week.

Ahhh anyway I'm just being a pain in the ass so don't mind me. Good luck with your rescue work.