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Bad Guy Russ P. Sold Me a Sick Snake!!! $275.00 gone

The seller, Russ P., should have disclosed ANY and ALL questionable health info to the buyer before the buyer purchased the snake. Funny after he sold the snake, the information was provided by Russ in the sense of.." oh..by the way.."

What I find disturbing is that Russ stated in his email to the buyer:

" Many times when I fed her large rats(what I consider medium rats-adult rats) she would regurge them. "

Now, note this: Russ stated that this happened MANY times. Why was the snake being fed large rats MANY times, if she was regurging them more than once? What kind of sensible owner of any animal would keep doing the same thing over and over, if the animal was proving to the keeper himself that she was regurging these oversized meals, over and over? Remember, this is Russ's own words.

Pituophis, that is bulls, pines, and gophers, can and will, perish and succumb to regurge syndrome. They are not like kings, where if they puke, they can bounce back pretty easily. Many times, if a pit pukes once, it is all over. Not every single circumstance, but it is well known with knowledgable keepers that they do not do well at all with regurges. Due to this fact about pits, this poor black pine snake was maybe even going downhill at the time of sale.

With this scenario with the seller's details about how he kept feeding the black pine and it would puke, makes me question his knowledge and husbandry to begin with. If I were the buyer, I would not even want a replacement snake. If the buyer goes ahead with it, he should receive that snake free of all charges, shipping included, and quarantine that thing.

Snakeholic, there are many pit keepers out there that do have black pines that would never have kept feeding a poor snake over and over, while the regurges were going on. You may want to just get your money back, and shop around.
 
Chance said:
Honestly $80 isn't that much for shipping. <Snip> The price is just getting ridiculous.QUOTE]

True, prices are getting quite ridiculous and $80 is not out of the realm of possibilities. Heck, I am shipping out a 16x16x8 box, this evening, and the shipping price is $120 via SyR.:ack2:

On topic ... It is good to hear that a resolution seems to have been made. Yes, please do update this thread if/when the agreed upon resolution takes place.
Click to expand...
 
DISCERN said:
The seller, Russ P., should have disclosed ANY and ALL questionable health info to the buyer before the buyer purchased the snake. Funny after he sold the snake, the information was provided by Russ in the sense of.." oh..by the way.."QUOTE]

I do agree. It should have been disclosed ~prior~ to purchase.
Click to expand...
 
DISCERN said:
The seller, Russ P., should have disclosed ANY and ALL questionable health info to the buyer before the buyer purchased the snake. Funny after he sold the snake, the information was provided by Russ in the sense of.." oh..by the way.."

What I find disturbing is that Russ stated in his email to the buyer:

" Many times when I fed her large rats(what I consider medium rats-adult rats) she would regurge them. "

Now, note this: Russ stated that this happened MANY times. Why was the snake being fed large rats MANY times, if she was regurging them more than once? What kind of sensible owner of any animal would keep doing the same thing over and over, if the animal was proving to the keeper himself that she was regurging these oversized meals, over and over? Remember, this is Russ's own words.

Pituophis, that is bulls, pines, and gophers, can and will, perish and succumb to regurge syndrome. They are not like kings, where if they puke, they can bounce back pretty easily. Many times, if a pit pukes once, it is all over. Not every single circumstance, but it is well known with knowledgable keepers that they do not do well at all with regurges. Due to this fact about pits, this poor black pine snake was maybe even going downhill at the time of sale.

With this scenario with the seller's details about how he kept feeding the black pine and it would puke, makes me question his knowledge and husbandry to begin with. If I were the buyer, I would not even want a replacement snake. If the buyer goes ahead with it, he should receive that snake free of all charges, shipping included, and quarantine that thing.

Snakeholic, there are many pit keepers out there that do have black pines that would never have kept feeding a poor snake over and over, while the regurges were going on. You may want to just get your money back, and shop around.
Click to expand...

I agree. :iagree: No argument from me.

However...I do think that once the information WAS transmitted the buyer had the responsiblity to send the animal back IMMEDIATELY...and I stress, he should have sent the animal back.

His concern (AFTER THE ANIMAL WAS DEAD) was on the shipping fees that he would have lost...what about the vet fees incurred? :shrug01:

My perception was that sometimes we bring our troubles on ourselves and then after the animal dies, we complain.:shrug01:
 
man that really sucks. that man just ruined his name in this snake market and nothing is more important than your name in this world. i hope karma works itself out in this situation. russ p may god help you. best of luck chris
 
DISCERN said:
The seller, Russ P., should have disclosed ANY and ALL questionable health info to the buyer before the buyer purchased the snake. Funny after he sold the snake, the information was provided by Russ in the sense of.." oh..by the way.."

What I find disturbing is that Russ stated in his email to the buyer:

" Many times when I fed her large rats(what I consider medium rats-adult rats) she would regurge them. "

Now, note this: Russ stated that this happened MANY times. Why was the snake being fed large rats MANY times, if she was regurging them more than once? What kind of sensible owner of any animal would keep doing the same thing over and over, if the animal was proving to the keeper himself that she was regurging these oversized meals, over and over? Remember, this is Russ's own words.

Pituophis, that is bulls, pines, and gophers, can and will, perish and succumb to regurge syndrome. They are not like kings, where if they puke, they can bounce back pretty easily. Many times, if a pit pukes once, it is all over. Not every single circumstance, but it is well known with knowledgable keepers that they do not do well at all with regurges. Due to this fact about pits, this poor black pine snake was maybe even going downhill at the time of sale.

With this scenario with the seller's details about how he kept feeding the black pine and it would puke, makes me question his knowledge and husbandry to begin with. If I were the buyer, I would not even want a replacement snake. If the buyer goes ahead with it, he should receive that snake free of all charges, shipping included, and quarantine that thing.

Snakeholic, there are many pit keepers out there that do have black pines that would never have kept feeding a poor snake over and over, while the regurges were going on. You may want to just get your money back, and shop around.
Click to expand...

:iagree: Well said! The feeding issue should have been disclosed before the sale, but I am glad to hear he is working with the OP. Hopefully he learns from his mistake and doesn't do this again.

To the OP - please update us when the resolution is met!

Pasodama said:
True, prices are getting quite ridiculous and $80 is not out of the realm of possibilities. Heck, I am shipping out a 16x16x8 box, this evening, and the shipping price is $120 via SyR.:ack2:

On topic ... It is good to hear that a resolution seems to have been made. Yes, please do update this thread if/when the agreed upon resolution takes place.
Click to expand...

Not to get off topic, but I highly recommend ReptilesExpress.com over SYR these days. Much cheaper for the same service and Debbie (customer service rep) is awesome. Just me 0.02 :)
 
Snake

Just read about me being a bad guy. I didn’t know any such thing was written until I was told about it on June 26, 2011. I got very upset and hotheadedly fired off this email to Ken(the snake owner):

Ken,
I just read what Chris wrote and it was crap. First of all that snake was not "about as thick as wrist" unless he is talking about a newborn babies wrist. A five foot blood python might be "about as thick as wrist" but not a five foot pine snake.
I did tell him on the phone before he(or you) bought the snake that it regurged large food items. We talked for awhile and he didn't seem to listen. I can't help it if he didn't tell you or remember what I said. And I wouldn't say he said everything is fixed. All he said was:
"Russ P. had just got hold of me and will work something out to make me happy"
This makes it sound like I waited until I read the bad guy crap before I called. I was not home for a few days and responded as soon as I saw his email. I let you know that I did not believe it was sick when I sold it to you, but that I would replace it with another female(a hatchling) because I've never had any problem with a customer and wanted to keep you happy.
This makes me not want to take any responsibility for this snake being sick. Truthfully, it has been healthy and eating small items with no problem for years. If it was sick it never would have produced 10 good eggs a year for the past three years. I have had other snakes of that size that I must feed only small items to, and none ever died.
I believe your husbandry was inferior and it made the snake sick. If a healthy snake is exposed to other sick snakes or kept in unclean conditions it can end up with exactly what that one did.
I must now rethink whether or not to replace this snake, as I do not feel responsible for its decline in health.
Also, Ken, since you are the person who actually had the snake, and the person who I offered to make this right with, why is this Chris guy writing bad stuff about me?

Russ
June26,2011


Since then Ken and I have talked. I am shipping a healthy 2010 female to Ken to pair up with his 2010 male. Ken sounds like a decent guy and responded to my email with this:

Russ,

I only have one other snake that is still healthy, so being exposed to other sick snakes is not possible. I am not a big time breeder with many snakes. I have time to change water and spot clean evrey day. I saw the text you sent chris after we recieved the snake, not before.

> Russ

I fed the snake only small prey items and she still regurged. I sent the vet report to you with the blood results. Do you think liver failure happened that quickly or do you think this happened before it was sent to me? Also why would you keep feeding a snake large prey items when she kept regurging? That could also be considered questionable husbandary. Pituophis are snakes that do not handle regurges well. So multiple regurges could have also been the problem. I was not asking for and adult female replacement and I also am willing to pay shipping. If I do recieve a female from you I will still be out $375.00 for a hatcling female pine (invluding vet visit and future shipping cost). How would you feel in this situation.

Chris posted hastely because he saw an ad posted by you earlier in the day on kingsnake for a pair of 2010 black pines. I told him not to post on fauna until you had more time to contact us. I am sorry he did this.

Ken


Here are earlier emails between Ken and I:Here are some earlier emails between Ken and I:

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Black Pine Female
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 05:39:45 -0400

Ken,
Glad you like her. I would wait at least five days between feedings and she might be able to handle two (large mouse size) rats at once.
Russ

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Black Pine Female
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:32:45 -0700

Hello,

My friend chris actually ordered the black pine female for me since I work Monday through Friday. I just wanted to tell you how happy I am with her. I fed her a small rat on Friday and she did not regurgitate. Her disposition is very nice and her coloring is amazing. It almost seems like she has a shine.

I just had a couple question for you. How many days were you waiting in between feeds and was she ok with eating more then one small rat at a time?\

Thanks,
Ken




In response to “DISCERN”:

"she was regurging these oversized meals, over and over? Remember, this is Russ's own words.".....
Discern, These were NOT my own words, please do not attribute them to me.
My words were: "Many times when I fed her large rats(what I consider medium rats-adult rats) she would regurge them." I never said anything about this snake regurgitating "over and over".
This was a reminder/caution to the buyer(Chris) whom I spoke with about it on the phone before the sale.
I purchased this female as a young adult and she ate larger items(medium rats - adult rats; not breeder size, she was too small for those), with no problem for two years. When she first regurgitated I waited two weeks and fed a smaller rat and she was fine for months when she regurgitated again. Thinking it was an anomaly, I waited two weeks and fed a small rat. No problems for a few feedings; then she regurgitated again. That time I waited two weeks then switched to only mice( and occasional two day old chicks) and never had another problem. She was fine for another two years until I received word from Ken that she died.

I have never claimed to be the most knowledgeable Pituophis keeper and I admit I have never heard of “regurge syndrome” being more serious in pits. According to one online source:
Regurgitation syndrome occurs when a snake has fed & regurged several times in a row makes it to where the snake can no longer hold down food ultimately causing death.
This never happened with this snake. She never regurgitated several times in a row.
I’ve read one book on pituophis and much more on snakes in general and have read the pituophis forum posts on KS as much as possible and have never seen it mentioned as particularly harmful to Pituophis. It may be in the literature, but I missed it. I am a hobbyist and I am always open to learning more about husbandry and becoming more knowledgeable in all aspects of snake keeping and breeding. As anyone who keeps and breeds reptiles knows there is always more to learn.

Russ P. Pascatore
 
The seller darn well knew she regurged some food and didn't bother telling the buyer until he had her. I don't blame the buyer for not shipping her back, why would he trust the guy that put him in this bad situation in the first place?!!!
 
Update:
Russ P. had sent a replacement female pine snake today 7-1-11 that is of top notch quality to my friend Ken.
Ken is very satisfied how the situation turn out.
Russ P. is trully an asset to the snake community for making sure his customers are happy, although not every situation of animal purchases turn out to be in perfect order, this proves that seller Russ P. will stand behind his animals.
 
This is Ken, the one who received the snake from Russ. My friend Chris used his paypal account and had the snake shipped to his house since I could not be home to receive for shipping. Russ has sent me a perfect female black pine free of shipping. I am completely happy with the way things turned out and would not hesitate to do business with Russ again in the future.

Kenneth Chittick
 
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