RYAN OLMAK ([email protected]) FROM MICHIGAN

[FLLDIVER]

Thieves
Posted by FightBack on 7/26/2003, 7:01 pm
68.119.32.193

For those who have been burned, keep this in mind: Advertising an animal for sale, and then not delivering as promised, is considered wire fraud. It is a crime. Don't just get mad, get even. It's really not that difficult to track people down electronically. If you put a few of these idiots in jail, maybe the problem will cease.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
***************************************************

this was posted on reptile classifieds .... do not know the author ..... just fyi

 

[FLLDIVER]

ryan, here is a copy of the email i have sent to you - since i do not know where you will read it first i have posted it here.
**************************************************
Subj: NEED YOUR DECISION
Date: 7/28/2003 6:17:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Flldiver
To: [email protected]

RYAN,

I HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BY THE STATE ATTY TO SEE IF I AM GOING TO PURSUE THIS CASE. THE FBI WORKS IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE STATE ATTY'S TO BRING LEGAL ACTION AGAINST THE OFFENDER.

I NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOUR DECISION IS GOING TO BE ON THIS - IF YOUR INTENTION IS TO CORRECT THIS MATTER, I HAVE TO KNOW BY TUESDAY.

IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO MAKE THIS SITUATION RIGHT, I WILL TELL THEM TO PROCEED.

THEY HAVE ASKED IF I HAVE GIVEN YOU AMPLE TIME TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM. SINCE TODAY IS 7/28 AND I HAVE ADVISED YOU ABOUT THIS SINCE THE DAY I RECVD THEM ON 7/17 - AMPLE TIME HAS BEEN GIVEN TO YOU.

SINCE IT APPEARS THAT THE PAYPAL ACCOUNT YOU ARE USING IS UNDER YOUR FATHERS NAME. HE MAY BE NAMED IN THIS CASE ALSO, SINCE HE IS ALLOWING YOU TO USE HIS ACCOUNT TO MAKE MONEY TRANSACTIONS.

RYAN, THIS IS A FEDERAL CRIME AND ONCE ON YOUR RECORD, IT WILL REMAIN WITH YOU FOR LIFE. I AM ASKING YOU ONE MORE TIME TO CORRECT THIS PROBLEM.

BETH

 

[FLLDIVER]

WELL OBVIOUSLY RYAN'S DAD COULD CARE LESS ALSO ... RYAN HAS NO INTENTION OF CORRECTING THIS MATTER.
-----------------
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Re: NEED YOUR DECISION
Date: 7/28/2003 8:51:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)



HI Beth Im sorry I made a mistake I was just looking at the forum and realized I typed april. It should have been may they were all born before my birthday witch puts them all over 2 months old you may of got 3" chameleons but I never promised 4" and you never asked for a pic of one to see its sizxe its your falt for not asking questions. I gave you what my add read a 3" two month old chameleon so get over it. my paypal account is in my name just my dads name for an email, this email isn't even his email address.

you’re the one that need to fix the stuff you have been saying about me that wasn't true on the forum I can't believe some one would lie like you have to get a messly $200 Thanks have a good day, I know I will Ryan

Subj: Fwd: NEED YOUR DECISION
Date: 7/28/2003 9:42:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Flldiver
To: [email protected]



Ryan,

Did you see the pics of what you sent me ? they were no where near 3" long. Obviously you do not care what you do to others. you lied to me to get $300 and did not send me what you promised.

I have given you plenty of time to make this right. I do know of several people that you have lost business with, buying and selling. Hopefully you will loose more business due to the postings.

I will let the state atty know that I am proceeding with the case - since you refuse to correct this.

Beth

 

[FLLDIVER]

ryan .... as promised i have in addition to filing the FBI INTERNET FRAUD COMPLAINT, i have also filed a complaint with the MICHIGAN DEPT OF ATTY GENERAL. This complaint is now public record. Any direction they may give me to pursue this i will follow.

 

[John Apple]

Geeee Ryan
How many other people have made a 'mistake' and made it right???? I'll answer that for you....The difference between you and the ones that have made a 'mistake' is that they are honest...and you..wellll...NOT!!!. The only way those chameleons could be that small and that old is that your husbandry methods suck!....lessee starvation and dehydration
Oh but then you can not even get the dates right on when they were born...April , May, cmon doofus quit the stories and make this mess right.
Like I said I have a big mouth and attend a few shows here in Michigan. Is your rep worth all this??

 

[bpc]

OK RYAN answer this one

Hi yes im sure there pure breed nose bes. they are 3" from the nose to the end of the tail

Ryan that is your email, from your posting, and therefor your words. Now go to page 4 of this post and LOOK at the chameleons sitting on the ruler. Even if you grabbed the tip of thier tail and thier upper lip and pulled for all you were worth those chameleons are NO WHERE CLOSE TO 3" 2 -2 1/4 AT BEST.

Because YOU PROMISED in your own words to send her 3" chameleons and did not deliver them you could be found guilty of fraud. It would be the same as me selling you a part for your 67 stang off ebay, and then actually sending you a part off of a 69. Yeah, it's still a part, and it's still a mustang part, but our agreement was for a 67 stang part. YOu wouldn't be happy, and I could be held liable.

Ryan, I'm a teacher and at our school we put all graduating seniors though a life lessons class. In it we talk about things like registering for selective service, credit cards, and CONTRACTS. You entered into a written contract, you have even posted emails to show us the contract. You agreed to send 3" chameleons, you sent 2" chameleons. In the reptile world that's the same as sending the wrong part. $200 is not worth the hassle the state attorney will put you through over this. Send her the $200, or send her a "3 inch (measured however you'd like) sexed pair of Nosy Be panther chameleons." As that is what your CONTRACT stipulates.

 

[FLLDIVER]

actually the written contract was $300 for a sexed pair of 2-3 month old panthers that were 3-4" long. when i didn't receive what i paid for i asked ryan to refund $200 to compensate for the 2 week olds - sex ?? that he did ship me. but of course we can all see he did not do that either.

i held up my end of this deal. i paid him $300 through paypal in good faith to receive what was posted in his ads.

i also promised him that if he did not correct this, i would file with the FBI and MI ATTY GENERAL. i completed that today !! this is also on file with the FL STATE ATTY ..... i have contact the local MICHIGAN shows, since ryan has stated that he usually only sells locally and advised them also of the BOI - they have his name and will watch out for him if he tries to sell at the shows.

ryan you can still correct this and i can advise the above agencies that you made good on this bad deal.

 

[bpc]

Beth, while I understand your frustration. You have no way of proving that they were or were not a specific age. You do have a right to demand the minimum size agreed upon 3". What you received was not 3" by any measure. Now it also sounds like you decided to keep the chameleons (for whatever reason). In doing so, you then came up with some idea of their worth. $35 is to low for panthers, they go for more than that wholesale. $35 is what Ryan thinks you offered for the chameleons you received, hence (35+35+30 shipping=$100). I guess you feel you are owed shipping because you didn't get what you ordered. Unfortunately, you kept what you received (and no, I don't think legally it matters that you did so because you feared for their lives), and because you did so, you have to pay shipping. Perhaps, you should call Ryan and ask what he thinks the 1-2" (depending on how one measures) chameleons he sent were worth. In my opinion, I would say about $50-60 each. Perhaps a $150 refund would be palatable for you both.

In the future, be sure that you have an "immediate return if not satisfied" option IN PLACE BEFORE MONEY EXCHANGES HANDS.

 

[Ryan67stang]

wheres the pic of the dead chameleons, and I will make it right but I sent you a male and a female that where 2 months old and atleast three inches. Im not sure if your ruler isn't to scale or if those are even the ones I sent you

once again you think you can get something for nothing by trying to intimidate someone to pay, and its not going to happen with out proof of them being dead or if there alive returned.

you could of made it right Beth

right when you got them I told you I would give you a refund minuse shipping and you said no you wanted a $200 refund and you get to keep the chameleons and that wasn't going to happen I don't think any breeder would giv in to this and if they did there wimps. so ship them back and you will get your refund.

 

[FLLDIVER]

brian,

i never said to ryan they were worth $35 each. i do not know where he came up with that. actually if you read back in the posts i request $200 back, because i paid him $300-$100 ($50/each)= $200 refund.

however, the pics very accurately show the condition they arrived to me in. aside from the obvious size, they were very thin and dark in color. the stress on them that tiny was great. he had fedex pu at 1130am in MI, they arrived to me at 1030 the next morning. the heat index alone would kill them. they were shipped with no cold pack, no type of moisture (wet paper towel). they were both together in a deli cup, with branches and 2 leaves from a pothos plant. being thrown around in a box with no protection, yep stressful.

ryan never offered to take them back and i even told him they would not survive the trip back in the condition they were in, so i said i would keep them under the agreement that he would refund $200. he obviously didn't do that. i recvd them on the 17th, they died hours apart from each other on the 24th. i have a pic of the 2nd one that died, but i'm waiting for toshiba to ship me the new cord for the camera to hook to the pc to post the pic.

i knew their chance of survival was slim, but my whole point here is that he DID NOT SHIP WHAT I PAID FOR.

he can ship me what i paid for and we can considered this case closed ..... but he still does not see that he screwed up.

 

[bpc]

right when you got them I told you I would give you a refund minuse shipping and you said no you wanted a $200 refund and you get to keep the chameleons

Beth, is this true? Ryan, do you have any proof of this (emails).

 

[bpc]

but my whole point here is that he DID NOT SHIP WHAT I PAID FOR.

Beth, I understand that, BUT (and it's a big but), you KEPT what he sent. You can't keep them and then make up your own price as to what they are worth.

so i said i would keep them under the agreement that he would refund $200.

When/where did he agree to that?

I think we all agree Ryan owes you something. But you made the cardinal mistake of keeping and subsequently killing animals you were not happy with. 8 days later seems VERY sketchy as to calling shipping the cause of death. 8 days might as well be 8 years with chameleons.

 

[FLLDIVER]

i have proof of what happened - read pg 5 of the BOI's. these were the emails i recvd from ryan. not one, no where did he offer for them to be returned or offer a refund.

the pics on pg 4 ryan plainly show what i recvd. WHERE DO YOU SEE THAT THESE ARE 3" LONG?

the pics you posted after are no where near what you shipped to me.

i am not threatening you ryan - i have filed with the 2 agencies. if you like i will post the file #'s so you can contact the respective agencies. i have tried to resolve this with you. maybe they can do what i and everyone else has and knows is the right thing to do.

 

[FLLDIVER]

In my opinion, I would say about $50-60 each.


brian, $50 was not a number i pulled out of my head. i actually contacted several breeders and asked the value after they saw the pics. in your own words, you put a value of $50-60/each. so me asking for a $200 refund is the difference from what i paid and what they are worth. i never asked for a refund on shipping and if i did ship these back and they were dead upon receipt - then what i would have killed them because i shipped them back? vs. what me keeping them and in your words killing them anyway ?? as i said i do rescue, preventing death and work daily to prevent the stupidity of people and the harm that animals suffer because of them. trust me, i did not kill them. the condition they arrived in was poor at best. they were very thin, tiny and dark in color, the stress that they were put through killed them.

but again, if he shipped what i paid for we would never be having these conversations. please tell me of any reputable breeders that ship panther chameleons the size of what i recvd on pg 4 ?

 

[bpc]

Beth, did you pay $300 shipped or $300 plus shipping?

$300 shipped means you payed $135 per animal, did not receive the right animal, BUT kept what you received. Thereby accepting the shipping costs. If you accept the shipping costs you don't get them refunded.

If you paid $300 plus shipping then $200 seems reasonable.

Also, I not saying you "KILLED" them. But after 8 days, they did die in your care. You decided to "rescue" these chameleons. Being in the business of rescue you know that rescues dont always work.

 

[FLLDIVER]

you are absolutely right, rescues do not always work. unfortunately it is usually related to the unproper and inhumane care that the original owners provide. by the time we can get involved to rescue - some are too far gone, even with the best efforts.

i paid ryan $300 shipped. that is what he asked originally - then 2 days later he posted $125 each + shipping. that would mean that i paid him $250 + $50 for shipping. when i have the fedex copy that cost him $24.50 - so i really do not think that asking $200 back is off track. although i have also asked that since he states he has 3 month old panthers, born somewhere btwn april and may since he can't remember, he can ship me a sexed pair of healthy 3 month olds. he doesn't know when they were born though first it was june, then april now it is may. but what he shipped me was not even 1 month old ... you can see that from the pics.

however, with the MI Atty General and the FBI cases the amount of what i paid him if the full amount they pursue.

 

[Asuncion7]

I keep and breed panthers...

and those are in no way shape or form old enought to be shipped or even sold. It is NOT ethical or even moral to sell them this young. They appear to be roughly a week old to me, NO WHERE NEAR old enough to go. It appears as though Ryan saw $$ and got sucked in. In one post he said something about it not mattering what age they are when they are shipped, and that is ridiculous. Chameleons are incredibly susceptible to stress, ESPECIALLY when so very young and frail. A breeder who knows what they are doing and cares for the animal itself instead of the $$ wouldn never ship that small or young knowing that any cham is susceptible to death in the first 3 months, MUCH more so than an older cham.

She deserves a full refund and he deserves to be noted as a terrible breeder in it only for the cash...makes me sick...

 

[bpc]

however, with the MI Atty General and the FBI cases the amount of what i paid him if the full amount they pursue.

Yes, that is true. But here is what his attorney will say. Beth received the chameleons on such and such date. Here is the paperwork proving that. Beth now says both chameleons died after 8 days in her care. Your honor I can place many, many reptiles experts on the stand who will say that 8 days is far to long for there to have been a problem with these chameleons when she received them. yada, yada, yada....

Point is, you DID NOT RECEIVE WHAT YOU PAID FOR (Ryan read that carefully, because that causes a problem for you). BUT YOU KEPT THEM ANYWAY (Beth read that carefully because that causes a problem for you).

$300 minus $100 for two very small chameleons minus $24.50 shipping leaves $175.50 refund owed to you Beth. Now Ryan, if you would perfer to send her two chameleons OF THE SIZE SHE ORDERED instead of refunding that amount, I think everyone would see that as fair also.

Beth, receiving undersized animals is not as rare as you might think. It's a ####ty way to do business but it's done everyday. You NEVER, NEVER, NEVER keep animals you are not happy with and expect the seller to make it right in this business. If they sent you the wrong thing to start with, what makes you think they are going to make it right later on?

 

[Asuncion7]

Problem is..

considering the way he is acting would he have refunded her if she returned them. He sounds like a foolish kid to me, and I too would be hesitant to send them back without a definite from him. If she sends them and he doesn't want to refund her, then she doesn't have much to stand on.

 

[bpc]

Cori, I disagree. She would have to document that she sent them back exactly as they were sent to her (or even better) and then use a service which requires a signature. Once he accepts them, then the goods have been returned. He has money for a product which the customer returned because it was defective, wrong, etc. He then can refund or replace to the customers satisfaction.

Now, you're right, he may have been an a$$ about that as well. But, you can't order something online, receive it, call and complain about it, then decide to keep it, and THEN get your money back. I saw in another post that someone now documents all packages received on VIDEO. They document the arrival, the opening of the box, and the animals as they come out of the box. Is that extreme? You bet. But, I can think of no better way to protect yourself when buying online.