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Salmon X Hogg Island question's

H

HerpLuver

The Boogeyman!
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I have an 03 salmon male, and was looking around at some hogg island females lately. I love there colors, and have wondered exactly what would the hypo babies come out looking like?

Now i know some of you out there are pretty strict on wanting to keep bloodlines pure, but im sure there are thousands and thousands of other pure hogg breeders out there. We didnt get as far into the morph's that we have NOW in this industry, by pure breeding's.

I would like to hear everyone's constructive opinions, whether negative or positive comments. But please im only asking around, so no flaming on the subject. I will go by the general consensus of this thread to figure out if i should or not.
 
Hi Chris,
It is true that we did not get as far into the morphs by breeding pure bloodlines, but you have to consider what you would be accomplishing by breeding a hypo to a Hog. Most of the crossing that was done with the morphs was bringing the morph into the Colombian pool. The problem I have with the Hog crosses is that we are polluting the Hog gene pool with The Colombian/CA blood.
The Colombian gene pool is now mixed and there is nothing that we can do about it, but the Hog Island gene pool is still relevant and needs to be kept that way. There is also the fact that there are nicer looking hypos coming out of the Colombian gene pool than the Hogs have to offer, if you don't believe me look what the Magee brothers are doing.
I just do not belive that crossing morphs into other localities is furthering a morph so to speak. If you want to make nicer hypos, look for a high color female and go from there.

Chris Canada-Smith
 
You make a good point James. I dont know a TON about Boa genetics, but i was wondering if there where any Hogg morphs?

Also, on average, what should a high color, breedable female columbian go for on the market today?
 
HerpLuver said:
You make a good point James. I dont know a TON about Boa genetics, but i was wondering if there where any Hogg morphs?
Click to expand...

The Sunset Boas are a Hog Island / Hypo cross
 
As Mike said, it's been done multiple times over with the Sunset boa's. They are beautiful to say the least.

I am by no means a purist and have no issue at all with crossing the morphs. While I truly admire some of the purist out there (Renfro etc), the fact of the matter remains is that the market is determined by the designer boa's. As long as people keep buying them then people will continue to cross the various species.

Griz
 
I believe that Sunsets are actually the "super" form of a hypo/hog x hypo/hog pairing. Sunset crosses are the hypos that result from the initial pairing of hypo x hog. the non-hypo offspring are nothing but mixed locale BCI. IF somebody feels compelled to make that cross, MY mind is somewhat more accepting of doing it with a male hog x female hypo...that way, the female hogs can be used to keep pure hog lines
 
I agree with Harold that the Sunsets are the super for of hypo hog crosses. There are proven lines of reversed striped Hogs out there. I believe Paul Mitchell has a nice line going. I disagree with harold on the fact that using a male or female Hog, it makes no difference, you are producing intergrades which may be bred back into Hog bloodlines and muddying up the already sometimes questionable Hog genetics.

Bob, I have spoken to you on the phone before and you are a good guy, but sometimes ethics need to come before the market, even though there are Hogs in the wild now, there is no guarantee that they will always be there. Caulker Cays are an example of a locality that has been wiped out since they were imported. Sometimes the good of the locality needs to be put before what sell well and what doesn't. I just think we need to keep designers and localities seperate.

Chris Canada-Smith
 
Like i said i wasnt going for anything yet till i actually heard a good bit of feedback, and from what it seems so far the general concensus says that i should stay away from X'ing them.

Now, are there hypo hogg's out there that are pure hogg's? Or was the hypo gene bred into them thus producing the sunset's? Im a bit confused by some of your answers.

Hogg's are just so beautiful i wanted to see a hypo hogg and i want to own a few hogg's myself. But im not willing to put price before ethics as was mentioned earlier. Im not here for cash, im here for the raw beauty of the animals.

Thats why, if you see me selling certain animals at below market, it's because it didnt cost me anything but the parents, food, electric and some supplies to produce them. I understand people out there do this as a living, but not me, and im not going to die or lose my house if i dont sell an animal for a hundred or two more.
 
No problem, most people do.
When I said that my mind was more accepting of using males for the crosses, it wasn't meant to mean that I am supportive if it is done that way...just that IF it is going to be done, that is a better option (vs polluting pure hog females). I HATE when people try to pawn off the non-hypo offspring of such a pairing as pure hog island...and even if the breeder is honest, the next person that buys/sells them may not be.
 
Now, are there hypo hogg's out there that are pure hogg's? Or was the hypo gene bred into them thus producing the sunset's? Im a bit confused by some of your answers.
Click to expand...
A popular current theory is that hogs are a naturally occuring super hypo (in that the population is isolated, so there has been no outcrossing to "normals" for several generations). However, the snakes marketed as hypo hogs are hog island x hypo BCI (as stated earlier, the hypo offspring of that pairing is called a Sunset Cross, the non hypo offspring are just mixed locale BCI...but if the hogs are, in fact, hypo or super hypo, one would expect that those wouldn't exist; unless they are different strains of hypomelanism that can be combined)
 
JCCS said:
Bob, I have spoken to you on the phone before and you are a good guy, but sometimes ethics need to come before the market, even though there are Hogs in the wild now, there is no guarantee that they will always be there. Caulker Cays are an example of a locality that has been wiped out since they were imported. Sometimes the good of the locality needs to be put before what sell well and what doesn't. I just think we need to keep designers and localities seperate.

Chris Canada-Smith
Click to expand...

And I reckon that is where we differ. These animals are not being planted back into the wild thereby decimating the wild population. These are animals that are remaining in private collector hands. If there was any chance of these hurting the wild populations then I would be the one leading the charge. But, since these will remain in captivity then whose to say where the ethic line is drawn? I do not feel that it is the least bit unethical to cross a hog and a bci just like I do not feel it is wrong to cross a pug with a beagle. It's personal choice and so long as the offspring are solid and viable then go for it. I do not think that ethics is the right word here. Ethics implies either right or wrong and I don't believe either is the case here.

Griz
 
I think that Chris' point was more along the lines that the wild population is negligible at this point (they were thought to be extinct until not too long ago). As such, if care isn't taken to maintain them in private collections, pure hog island boas could become a rarity even in captivity...a problem exacerbated by those that do not market the "crosses" as what they are.
 
Chris, all of the hypo/hogs that I am aware of, including the sunstes are crosses. It seems that you are making, atleast in my mind, the right decision. Again, I do not dislike people for crossing localities, I just do not participate in the practice myself and will usually try to persuade others to do the same.

Harald, I did not take it as you were supporting the crosses, I was just saying that in my view, using either sex is just as wrong as the other.

Bob, It is somewhat of an ethical issue, that being said people have different ethical standards. I am not saying that yours are right or wrong. I believe that as long as the animals are being kept in proper conditions, the owner can breed whatever they want to whatever they want, it is a free country. It is just my personal ethics that make me want to keep the Hogs and other localities pure.

Chris Canada-Smith
 
Bob in reading that, my first sentence where I used "ethical standars" could easily be taken out of context. What I was meaning to say is closer to "ethical point of view". I think that using ethical standards could be viewed as condescending on my part. I do believe it is an ethical issue, but I don't believe someone is unethical just because they cross localities.

Chris
 
How bad off is the population of Hogg island boa's in the wild? Honestly?

If you breed a hogg to a normal BCI, does half of the clutch come out hypo's? If not, then i wouldnt say that the theory of Hogg's being a form of super hypo is true. Hypo being a co-dom or dom gene, it should pass down to the babies at least half of the clutch. But if that does not occur on an outcross breeding, then its just a normal locale color difference.

This seems to be a 50/50 decision in most peoples minds, where-as its either ok or its not ok. I can see what Bob means when he says he doesnt believe its an "Ethics" issue. It's not like we're discussing abortion *gasp*

This is basically like saying its unethical for a white man to have sex with a black woman and produce mixed children. It's a 50/50 ratio, some will say yes, some will say no. I will do more research before i delve into something like this. I'd like to keep this topic open to more discussion. So we can see the true passion some of you hold in regards to this issue.
 
The truth is that no one here probably has a good answer on the population question.
Now as for comparing keeping localities pure and mixing races of people, that is two completely seperate subjects. People have the choice whether to mate or not. I am part native american, allbeit a small part. I don't believe that there are too many americansthat were born in America that can claim to be of one pure "locality", atleast they would be in the vast minority. I don't believe that is an ethics issue at all, but some might. There is that different ethics for different people thing creeping out again, lol. Enough of this subject, a bit too touchy for this forum.

Chris
 
i look at it this way . if i had a pair of hoggs that i could trace the parentage on and be sure they were pure hogg island then i would not want to cross them with anything . if on the other hand i had a hogg island whose parentage was unknown and i couldnt be sure it was pure or not , i'd be less likely to worry about crossing it with something else . the main issue i see is that those who do cross one local with another should sell them as crosses . i think the big ethical issue is less with crossing than it is with the selling of critters as what they are instead of claiming them to be something else .
 
I don't have a problem with crossing, I have done it myself. But as mark said they need to be sold as what they are. That is what happened to me I thought I purchased a clean pure hogg female, what I bought was a cross a pastel BCIxhogg. (hard to tell for sure when she was 2 weeks old and my lack of experience) I got some really nice looking babies, but the snake was misrepresented because it looked so much like a hogg. I have since purchased a hogg female for my hogg male. Now I'll have both. I was thinking of mixing my male salmon with one of my pastel hoggs, wich I will probably do in a few years. Seems to me people have been doing this with dogs forever. As far as ethics go who's to say your perception of ethics is the same as the guy next door? Just my thoughts. I'm new at the breeding part of the hobby but I've admired these animals since I was a kid. KNOW and TRUST who you buy from if you are looking for pure lines.
Dennis Cook
 
JCCS said:
Bob in reading that, my first sentence where I used "ethical standars" could easily be taken out of context. What I was meaning to say is closer to "ethical point of view". I think that using ethical standards could be viewed as condescending on my part. I do believe it is an ethical issue, but I don't believe someone is unethical just because they cross localities.

Chris
Click to expand...

Chris, trust me, I have very thick skin so nothing phazes me. And, I understood how you meant your comment.

When I view this issue I do not see it as an ethical question as there is no moral absolute here. I fully back people like Gus who are creating some of the most beautiful local specific animals that you are likely to ever see. But, I also see absolutely no harm in crossing some of the locals to create even more beautiful animals that are maintained in private collections. It's not a question about ethics rather personal likes/dislikes.

Griz
 
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