Sandfire Dragon Ranch

[Tere Salazar]

I understand what you are saying Tere, but Denise made the claim they did. She even quoted a price:

Bobby-

Did you ever think that maybe Denise used the experience she had been through with having her PCR testing done in an attempt to help others, and ASSUMED that the PCR testing done at the University of Florida is the same as the PCR testing she had done?

She never said she used the University of Florida, which means she would not be familiar with exactly what they require, but you're blaming her for not knowing what their testing procedures are? I'm sorry...I didn't realize that being a beardie breeder required knowing every lab in the United States, together with what tests they perform and what collection techniques they require.

 

[Bar None Reptiles]

Someone has claimed that blood tests were done. Why can't Denise or Cheri, or whoever it was if I give the wrong names here just tell me where it was done. California Avian does NOT do it, FACT. U of FL does NOT do it, FACT. U of IL does FECAL EM only, FACT. Who else is there? My vet has spent 4 months looking all over the country for this elusive, yet according to some, existing test. If you are all in it only for the good of the dragon community and suppose to be coming together to fight this with testing and information, why won't you come out and just say the lab, or even the state the lab is located in? Why do I want to know so badly? Fine, I'll say it now for all to hear. I got a dragon from Sunshine, his father is Dante, his mother is Siren. He is a replacement for one I ordered previously from Dante x Cayenne that dropped dead within 3 weeks of getting it. Do I think he has adeno? Sure stands a good chance based on his genetics, but I am not going to go around pointing fingers until I can test. I CANNOT get a fecal on this guy. I have tried for 4 months since I became aware of this problem. It's just not going to happen. He has been in overly strict quarantine, but that is not good enough for me. I want to know without a doubt if he has it or not. Will I ever use him even if he proves negative? I doubt it. It would take alot of convince me to do so. But I want to know, and I think I have the right to know, but your bickering about tests is only making it so that others cannot be privy to the same information you have. Those out there claimed to have done it, just come forward and tell me where. I constantly hear that nothing good will come unless everyone tests and comes together sharing their information. I see no sharing going on. I was trying to help when I came on and posted, yes it was wrong but that is what I was told not even 5 minutes before I posted it. And now I came back, admitted I was wrong and ask for help, and you can't even do that. Seems like this is just going to become an epidemic, for lack of a better term, because one (or two?) people don't want to share something so simple as a lab location. Silence only proves the fact that someone lied.

 

[monkeywrench133]

And to think I stumbled into all of this because I am getting my daughter her (our) first beardie sometime this year. Fate.

"No good deed goes unpunished" Clare Boothe Luce

 

[Jim O]

Someone has claimed that blood tests were done. Why can't Denise or Cheri, or whoever it was if I give the wrong names here just tell me where it was done. California Avian does NOT do it, FACT. U of FL does NOT do it, FACT. U of IL does FECAL EM only, FACT. Who else is there? My vet has spent 4 months looking all over the country for this elusive, yet according to some, existing test. If you are all in it only for the good of the dragon community and suppose to be coming together to fight this with testing and information, why won't you come out and just say the lab, or even the state the lab is located in?....Silence only proves the fact that someone lied.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

 

[hhmoore]

In looking at the majority of the content of this thread, I find myself asking: What does this have to do with Sandfire Dragon Ranch and the original poster?? There are a couple of threads in the Bearded Dragon forum dealing with adenovirus and the testing methods...why is most of this banter not taking place there?

 

[Iguanalady]

I posted this on another thread but figured to add my two cents here. No matter where we test, who does the test or the results, it all boils down to how accurate these tests are. I have two of Sunshine Dragons beardies, when this all came out a few months ago I had them tested, they both came back negative. Does this mean they are a true negative? Not necessarily! These tests don't seem to be conclusive, just because we have negative test results doesn't mean we have negative dragons or babies. This not being accurate has discouraged many breeders from not testing. It isn't the fact that we have or haven't, the fact is that the dragon can test postive one time and negative the next. There really has to be alot more research on this little nasty before any of us can know for sure. Is this an inheirate trait in all dragons? Is there a decisive time that the dragons shed the virus? There are just too many unanswerable factors right now. Sitting here pointing fingers at each other saying "he/she lied" is mote....No matter what we do, I don't believe we will know for sure for a while, or at least until someone comes up with a test that is absolute.

 

[jsrocket]

In looking at the majority of the content of this thread, I find myself asking: What does this have to do with Sandfire Dragon Ranch and the original poster?? There are a couple of threads in the Bearded Dragon forum dealing with adenovirus and the testing methods...why is most of this banter not taking place there?

You're right, Harald. Unless I missed something, Sandfire has honored their guarantee.

The crap hit the fan when puppytoes revived a 4 year old thread. People with agendas flew in, and here we are.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Someone has claimed that blood tests were done. Why can't Denise or Cheri, or whoever it was if I give the wrong names here just tell me where it was done. California Avian does NOT do it, FACT. U of FL does NOT do it, FACT. U of IL does FECAL EM only, FACT. Who else is there? My vet has spent 4 months looking all over the country for this elusive, yet according to some, existing test. If you are all in it only for the good of the dragon community and suppose to be coming together to fight this with testing and information, why won't you come out and just say the lab, or even the state the lab is located in? Why do I want to know so badly? Fine, I'll say it now for all to hear. I got a dragon from Sunshine, his father is Dante, his mother is Siren. He is a replacement for one I ordered previously from Dante x Cayenne that dropped dead within 3 weeks of getting it. Do I think he has adeno? Sure stands a good chance based on his genetics, but I am not going to go around pointing fingers until I can test. I CANNOT get a fecal on this guy. I have tried for 4 months since I became aware of this problem. It's just not going to happen. He has been in overly strict quarantine, but that is not good enough for me. I want to know without a doubt if he has it or not. Will I ever use him even if he proves negative? I doubt it. It would take alot of convince me to do so. But I want to know, and I think I have the right to know, but your bickering about tests is only making it so that others cannot be privy to the same information you have. Those out there claimed to have done it, just come forward and tell me where. I constantly hear that nothing good will come unless everyone tests and comes together sharing their information. I see no sharing going on. I was trying to help when I came on and posted, yes it was wrong but that is what I was told not even 5 minutes before I posted it. And now I came back, admitted I was wrong and ask for help, and you can't even do that. Seems like this is just going to become an epidemic, for lack of a better term, because one (or two?) people don't want to share something so simple as a lab location. Silence only proves the fact that someone lied.

Shannon-

I feel for your circumstances, really I do. But did you ever think that maybe if you would have called Denise and asked her this information PRIOR to when everyone started attacking her...and PRIOR to your joining in with them in that attack, that maybe she would have provided you with any information you desired?

Regardless of what you may think right now, Denise is a human being. She has feelings, just like you do. And when you trample on those feelings, you can't expect to get a favorable response.

 

[jsrocket]

Shannon-

I feel for your circumstances, really I do. But did you ever think that maybe if you would have called Denise and asked her this information PRIOR to when everyone started attacking her...and PRIOR to your joining in with them in that attack, that maybe she would have provided you with any information you desired?

Regardless of what you may think right now, Denise is a human being. She has feelings, just like you do. And when you trample on those feelings, you can't expect to get a favorable response.

That is a big crock of crap. If she did, indeed have the testing done, what's the big secret? She could easily clear this up, but does not. If what you're saying is, "She is telling the truth, but since it hurt her feelings when people asked for evidence, she won't be providing it", then give me a break.

 

[shrap]

The crap hit the fan when puppytoes revived a 4 year old thread. People with agendas flew in, and here we are.

I dont know Denise or puppytoes. The only agenda I had was wanting to learn about Adeno, its testing and not wanting folks to point fingers at one another until there was adequate proof to do so.

And I would like to thank Bobby Hill for the phone call. It was truly my pleasure getting to talk with you Bobby. You are a good man.

 

[Bar None Reptiles]

Shannon-

I feel for your circumstances, really I do. But did you ever think that maybe if you would have called Denise and asked her this information PRIOR to when everyone started attacking her...and PRIOR to your joining in with them in that attack, that maybe she would have provided you with any information you desired?

Regardless of what you may think right now, Denise is a human being. She has feelings, just like you do. And when you trample on those feelings, you can't expect to get a favorable response.

Perhaps the fact that my phone cannot be in use for more than 10 minutes holds a high impact in that I can't call ANYONE. Perhaps the fact that I have a golf ball sized lump on my head and a migraine for 5 days straight, yet again, makes me not really want to talk on the phone. Perhaps even the fact that I don't call strangers up out of the blue and expect to get an answer for something that apparently is so secretive and personal it cannot be shared with anyone else. I don't know who Denise is, I only asked who it was who had it done. I did not find out until today who it was. And I would like to know who I joined in with? As far as I know, I asked a question. Plain and simple. I certainly did not ask you a question. But if you would like to jump down my throat I would be more than happy to return the favor. I don't know you, and I don't know most of the people on this thread. I simpy asked a question and have been more than patient in waiting for its response. Logical conclusion has drawn me to the point I am at now, that is it a lie. I don't really care who it is that lied. I'm not the one who will reap the consequences of this fabrication. I came clean about my misunderstanding, and that is what it was. I did not realize it became such a huge ordeal until recent that my incorrect statement created. I cannot apologize enough for what became of that simple post of mine. But I really forgot that it existed. I figured if others had the test done, it must exist somewhere, but my vet has been unable to find it. I also owe her a huge apology for the wild goose chase she had been conducting. But the fact remains in a community where everyone claims to be honest and helpful to others, those who preach it, have yet to do so.

 

[Iguanalady]

Comon' people give her a break. I am not really siding with anyone but constantly calling someone a liar just because she won't do what you ask is rediculous. She gave her reasons for not posting a photocopy of her results. That doesn't make her a liar just because she won't conform with what you want her to do. Maybe she does have a privacy issue. Have you tried to at least PM her and see if she would send it to you that way? Sometimes I think you guys are all a bunch of old ladies trying to keep some drama going....let it rest, she isn't going to give you the info no matter how much you whine! Let's get back to the subject at hand. This is the reason alot of people are afraid to post here, they are worried about being attacked and called liars. This has been nothing but post after post about how someone is lying and the reasons therefore. She nor anyone is obligated to post something that my infringe upon their right to privacy.

 

[jsrocket]

Just when I thought things couldn't possibly become any stupider...

 

[Ed Clark]

Denise, its real simple....When you are attacked and called a liar all that is needed is to post some proof! People are pointing fingers at Sandfire Dragon Ranch and saying that their Dragons are infected...once again no one has posted any results saying that.

Comon' people give her a break. I am not really siding with anyone but constantly calling someone a liar just because she won't do what you ask is rediculous. She gave her reasons for not posting a photocopy of her results. That doesn't make her a liar just because she won't conform with what you want her to do. Maybe she does have a privacy issue. Have you tried to at least PM her and see if she would send it to you that way? Sometimes I think you guys are all a bunch of old ladies trying to keep some drama going....let it rest, she isn't going to give you the info no matter how much you whine! Let's get back to the subject at hand. This is the reason alot of people are afraid to post here, they are worried about being attacked and called liars. This has been nothing but post after post about how someone is lying and the reasons therefore. She nor anyone is obligated to post something that my infringe upon their right to privacy.

 

[shrap]

People are pointing fingers at Sandfire Dragon Ranch and saying that their Dragons are infected...once again no one has posted any results saying that.

As usual Ed, you are on the ball man..... Kevin from Sandfire already said his colony is infected.

 

[JimD]

Plain and simple. There is no proof! Run and hide and hope it goes away. Total load of BS to anyone who has read ALL the posting going on. Not just here but on other forums. Mr Hill! You have nailed this one! Any one can see that if they can read.
Jim.

 

[kmurphy]

Michelle Estep wrote:

well i just got off the phone with sandfire.i spoke to kevin,their specialist.he basically said`that all beardies have the virus in them and it is only brought out by stress or poor husbandry!!! he states that they are NOT planning on testing.

Kevin wrote:

I spoke with Michelle about 1 1/2 hours ago and alot of what has been posted was taken out of context. I told her that it is my understanding that a dragon can test negative for Adenovirus several times only to test positive the next time. I compared it to coccidia in the way that coccidia can be evident in a dragon, but not show up in an exam unless it is being shed at that time (I'm not a vet so forgive me if my terms are incorrect)...I also told her that we produced over 9,000 bearded dragons last year and that there is no way we could test everything before it is shipped. In addition to that, we purchase another few thousand dragons from breeders throughout the US for distribution to a couple of major pet store chains. If a dragon appears to be sick, we don't ship it...as sad as it sounds, the dragon is euthanized. Michelle purchased her dragon 6 months ago from Petco and, by her statemants, the dragon appears healthy. A lot of things could have happened in six months to expose that dragon to Adenovirus. I did not blame anything on her husbandry. I mearly stated that, if a dragon has Adenovirus it can still test negative and then test positive at a later date, and that it is my belief that stress is a major factor in whether or not a dragon is affected by many various types of sickness, including Adenovirus. I have spoken to vets who feel the same way...
Lets face it: All of the Bearded Dragons in captivity today are decendants of a very small number of animals. That means they all share the same ancestors...it is very likely that all bearded dragons have been exposed to Adenovirus, at some point, long before we even knew what it was. Am I saying that every bearded dragon in the country has Adenovirus? No. I am saying that, just because a dragon has a negative test on one day, that does not mean it will not test positive on another day.

At least in this post, which appears to be Kevin's only post here on the subject, I don't believe he stated that he has Adenovirus.

 

[Cat_72]

Plain and simple. There is no proof! Run and hide and hope it goes away.
Jim.

Yep, that's EXACTLY what these breeders who refuse to test or do ANYTHING to stop the spread of this virus are doing.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

I was wondering something about Kevin's statement of "All of the Bearded Dragons in captivity today are decendants of a very small number of animals. That means they all share the same ancestors...it is very likely that all bearded dragons have been exposed to Adenovirus, at some point, long before we even knew what it was." I was under the impression that the number of original dragons was in the hundreds. Now that is still a small number, but I have read where some people say it was only 20. So, does anyone actually know the number? Then, is it not true that we have had animals imported into this country for years? It is not like there was a set number of dragons to start the U.S. colonies and that was it.

It is also my understanding that adenovirus is not prevalent in Australia like it is in the U.S. With the strict export and ownership laws (they have to have a permit to have a beardie) in Australia, they have not had all of the overbreeding, importing and exploitation that dragons have endured here in the U.S. They are where dragons originated from and are a true representation of the species. I am not saying that dragons do not have adenovirus in Australia, I have read that they have documented cases in the wild. But a dragon would have to run across it in their natural habitat. Where as here, we have breeders spreading it across the country via overnight carriers. If Australia is not having huge outbreaks, it is possible that this is more of a U.S. problem that was introduced somewhere along the line. That is not fact, just another possibility that is worthy of consideration.

There are many possibilities with this virus. Yes, it is possible that it could have been in some of the original U.S. dragons. But to use the word "likely" could lead people to believe it is fact, which it is not. It is also possible that this was introduced somewhere along the lines from an imported dragon and spread that way. It is also possible that it was in a small number of dragons and the breeders who could have done something to contain it chose to remain silent for the sake of making money from selling dragons. "IF" they did this, their choices had far reaching consequences for many dragons and people. It does look like adenovirus has spread to a large portion of the U.S. dragon population. I do not believe it was something that was there to begin with. I think it was in a small number and then has spread significantly over the last several years. I do not believe that all dragons in the U.S. have adenovirus. That is not fact, just my opinion.

I just do not believe this is something they have all had and it comes out with stress or poor husbandry. If that were the case, we would have had many more problems long ago, since husbandry keeps improving with time. I had babies my first season w/o any problems at all. They were big and healthy. I provided the best husbandry for them. I also did the same with my second season babies. I had a male that bred for the first time (that later turned out to be adeno positive) I first had babies from his cross dying and then babies from my other cross began to die, but at a few weeks later. They were under the same husbandry as before and I had babies die, babies extremely under sized and babies that you would never know they had this virus, but they did. Lou Ann from the University of IL lab said this virus is extremely hardy and it is hard to kill. I believe I was cross contaminating and infecting babies without knowing it. This was not something that was in them to begin with and then became active with poor care. They were infected with it.

I guess I am sharing all of this because I think that it is dangerous when someone as well respected as Kevin makes the statement I referenced above. That is simply his opinion and not fact. I have been reading more and more people saying exactly what he stated like it is a known fact and it isn't.

It is being accepted as fact that this virus is wide spread. I believe it is, but that makes it all the more important to test breeders and not breed positive animals. Will breeders that test negative possibly be positive? Yes, probably, but it is a far cry better than taking the stance to not test at all and spread it that much further. I had this virus with my small colony of 8 dragons. I would think it is safe to say that the larger breeders have a high risk of having it in theirs. Will it cost money to test? Yes, but they do have a responsibility to sell healthy dragons. I also feel that they have the responsibility to do what is right for the U.S. dragon population and that does not seem to be the case at the present time. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

The above statement should read "Will SOME breeders that test negative possibly be positive? Yes, probably, but it is a far cry better than taking the stance to not test at all and spread it that much further."