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SANDIEGO VIVARUIM

N

Nicole

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A few days ago, there was a post on kingsnake.com about Sandiego Vivarium (Dale Picolla) selling IBD infected animals. I have every reason to belive that this is NOT at all true. In early Jan. I purchased a female Guyanan Red tail ready to breed. I had a great experience purchasing from Dale. He was very informative and answered all my questions. Well that female boa has been in my care since the 5th of January and is yet to have ANY problems. She quickly and  succesfully bred with one of my male Guyanan's and I'm looking forward to the expected offspring. Now, if Sandiego Vivarium was selling IBD infected animals, wouldn't the animal I purchased be infected as well? According to the negative post about Sandiego Vivarium, the animals the person had purchased died 2 days later. This makes no sense to me. If the animals were that sick, wouldn't the buyer have noticed something wrong BEFORE he bought the animals? Then the person goes on to say that he SOLD a few of the animals to another person, and those animals died as well. If you knew that these boas were infected, and a few of them had already died, would you sell them? Or maybe he sold the animals BEFORE the others died. What RESPONSIBLE person would sell animals before assuring that they were healthy and eating? No one that I know. I emailed Dale and he assured me that these rumors were completely untrue, and brought on by a conflict between him and the man who made the post. Dale seems like a very honest man, and I truely believe that all of his animals are healthy and very exceptional. I would not hesitate to buy from Dale again.

~ Nicole Fisher ~    <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>
 
<!--QuoteBegin--Nicole+Mar. 17 2002,02<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Nicole @ Mar. 17 2002,02<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>8)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A few days ago, there was a post on kingsnake.com about Sandiego Vivarium (Dale Picolla) selling IBD infected animals. I have every reason to belive that this is NOT at all true. In early Jan. I purchased a female Guyanan Red tail ready to breed. I had a great experience purchasing from Dale. He was very informative and answered all my questions. Well that female boa has been in my care since the 5th of January and is yet to have ANY problems. She quickly and  succesfully bred with one of my male Guyanan's and I'm looking forward to the expected offspring. Now, if Sandiego Vivarium was selling IBD infected animals, wouldn't the animal I purchased be infected as well? According to the negative post about Sandiego Vivarium, the animals the person had purchased died 2 days later. This makes no sense to me. If the animals were that sick, wouldn't the buyer have noticed something wrong BEFORE he bought the animals? Then the person goes on to say that he SOLD a few of the animals to another person, and those animals died as well. If you knew that these boas were infected, and a few of them had already died, would you sell them? Or maybe he sold the animals BEFORE the others died. What RESPONSIBLE person would sell animals before assuring that they were healthy and eating? No one that I know. I emailed Dale and he assured me that these rumors were completely untrue, and brought on by a conflict between him and the man who made the post. Dale seems like a very honest man, and I truely believe that all of his animals are healthy and very exceptional. I would not hesitate to buy from Dale again.

~ Nicole Fisher ~    <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
"if Sandiego Vivarium was selling IBD infected animals, wouldn't the animal I purchased be infected as well?"  Nicole, how can you tell if yours was not infected IBD?
"Well that female boa has been in my care since the 5th of January and is yet to have ANY problems. She quickly and  succesfully bred with one of my male Guyanan's and I'm looking forward to the expected offspring"  Quarantine period is 3 months (6 months were recommended for boa).  Do you aware of this?
From my experience.  I was interested in the female het albino that they posted.  I e-mailed, and called and left a message on their answering machine, stated that I can pick her up since I live in town, and asked if they stand behind her all the way, or just guarantee her het by the paper.  It has been a little more than a week, and I still haven't gotten any reply from them.  I guess they're looking to sell her out of state.

John Nguyen
Boa Voyage
 
I remember reading the "Bill Cagle" thread (yesterday) in its entirety. I do not recall that *anyone* said that ALL of the Boas at the San Diego Vivarium were IBD infected, so it is perfectly logical that *some* of their animals are completely healthy. Is the previous message states, Boas can be carriers and remain asymtomatic for a VERY long time, so the fact that your animal does not show any characteristics of IBD means nothing other than it isn't showing symptoms.

I try to stay out of these discussions, but your message is so supportive ot San Diego Vivarium based on this animal that you cast doubt on the validity of what Mr. Cagle has said with little (none) factual informationto back you up.

Snake mites are believed to be the vector for the disease. If your snake didn't have mites when you purchased it, there is a decent chance that it is disease free, but it doesn't mean that the entire collection is pathogen free. Your logic is similar to someone who has unprotected sex with a HIV positive individual, and who tests negative for HIV following the "act", telling the rest of the world that the HIV positive individual "Can't have HIV because I've had sex with that person and I tested negative." The two are not mutually exclusive.... your snake can be the only one they had that doesn't have IBD.... Also, the (now) dead snakes could have been the only ones that did have the disease.... neither is a very likely scenerio, but your statements regarding the status of the animals at San Diego Vivarium are as meaningless as they can be based on your sample population.....

Tom Townsend
(an uninterested party in all of this)
 
Nicole Here are the facts.

Chris bought from Bill cagle....2 - 3 weeks later the animal (s) died. Proven IBD by Lab Results

Bill Cagle bought the aforementioned animals from San Diego Vivarium.

CFRB bought animal(s) from San Diego Vivarium.  those animal(s) died...Proven IBD by Lab Results

That is two, dos, dalawa, (2) completely different people whose animals can be traced back to San Diego Vivarium.
We are not saying all his animals have IBD....We are saying at least 2 or 3 had it.  We are not saying your animals has IBD.  We are saying it might...it might not....or it can be a asymptomatic carrier of the disease.

Nicole.....you got bits and pieces of the story.

also Please read up o IBD.  I posted some links about it.
But I will Post it again.   The more I post it...the more people can learn


Inclusion Body Disease  Found on Peter Kahl's webpage.  Also found on Melissa Kaplan's.  Links can be found on mine
IBD Virus  Found on Peter Kahl's webpage.  Also found on Melissa Kaplan's.  Links can be found on mine
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was interested in the female het albino that they posted.  I e-mailed, and called and left a message on their answering machine, stated that I can pick her up since I live in town, and asked if they stand behind her all the way, or just guarantee her het by the paper.  It has been a little more than a week, and I still haven't gotten any reply from them.  I guess they're looking to sell her out of state.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

John...that does sound kinda suspicious...
IMO
 
First, let me say that I am not here to bash anyone or to start controversy.  I am simply here to verify the facts.  

Here are the facts on my end of this situation:

I bought a large female Suriname from Dale Picolla of the San Diego Vivarium.  He was asking $650.  I offered him $350 and he took it.  I put the animal in quarantine and shortly after she died.  I thought this to be rather strange as the animal seemed to be outwardly healthy.  She had very good weight with nice fat reserves and showed no signs of health problems.  Because of the oddity of her sudden death I sent her to the vet for analysis.  Chuck Barker of Central Florida Reptile Breeders was nice enough to take her to his vet to be examined.  The vet contacted us after all of the lab work was done to inform us that the cause of death was IBD.  I contacted Dale and let him know what happened. ( Again, I am not here to bash however, I am astonished at the fact that Dale is still selling animals after being told an animal that came from his collection had IBD.)  Dale could not believe the news and he further told me ( in so many words ) that he did not believe that IBD is a valid disease.  I requested that he refund my money and he agreed.  I have not recieved any money yet.  A hard copy of the results of the test will be availible later in the week.  I would like to say that I love and care for all of my animals.  The people that know me and that have purchased animals from me know that I am honest and that I genuinely care about my animals as well my customers happiness.
Thankfully I did not introduce this animal into my collection.  We all have something to learn from this situation.  Quarantine is a must, and if a deal seems to good to be true then it probably is!
I hope I have cleared things up.  I would also like to say that I have talked to Mr. Cagle and the details he posted on the boa forum were correct and hopefully I have verified them further.  I have never met Bill and I have only just started conversing with him over the phone.  He contacted me once he found out that I was one of the victims of this unfortunate ordeal.  Bill, I want to say thanks for your support and for telling the truth.  Chuck, thanks for caring enough to help me get my animal tested by a trusted vet.  

MATT HUNTER
TRUEREDTAILS.COM
 
Hey Nicole,

You call this stupid rumors??? We have 2 vet reports from two totally different vets in two totally different states, yet you call this a rumor? These are licensed Doctors in veternarian medicine. Do you think they would jeopardize their careers by falsifying vet reports? "I don't think so!" It is very unfortunate that you are also a victim of circumstance. I sure hope you quarantined your animals in question. I am honestly more worried about the boas than the people, but I do sympathize with everyone's situation. This is a bad thing and there are alot more angry people than me and Matt.
 
That's right two vet. reports and Cagle hasn't paid fpr one of them!!!!!! Hey Bill still waiting for that pay-pal you promised me. Did my vet. contact you???
 
Is Dale banned from here ?  Why hasnt he replied ? This thing is like a tree, the more you get into it the more layers you find.  I wish all the interested parties would get their aXX on this board and get everything out in the open because quite franky I have not purchased from either Bill or Dale and I am not involved except in the sense that I have a lot of boas and I would hate for soemthing to come my way eventually through a low life who sold something they knew was sick just so they wouldnt lose a few bucks.  This is mental masturbation here guys, thats all it is, its a bunch of he said, she said, and that type off crap.  Whoever is responsible, if you just get it over with and admit it we would all be very grateful.


Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
I almost forgot ...... Bill you admit that the animals came from you and whether you bought them from Dale or Joe Blow, by selling him those animals you are responsible for the outcome of that sale and personally I think you should pay Chris's vet bill and I cant understand why you havent.  I dont know Chris and I have no stake in Chris getting reimbursed but I think its the right thing to do and when all is said and done he was your customer, other people who read this and would consider buying from you in the future might reconsider when they see how you follow up on a problem.  I dont know your personal finanncial situation but I dont think it would kill you to pay one vet bill, now if it were a lot of vet bills then I could see why you would not want to start a precedent here.


Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
HEY GARY, IT IS OBVIOUS THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS. MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS AND IT WILL HELP YOU TO BETTER UNDERSTAND MY POSITION. I HAVE ALREADY REPLACED BOTH ANIMALS WITH NEW ANIMALS AND THE CUSTOMER CALLED ME AND SAID HE WAS HAPPY. IT WAS SEVERAL WEEKS LATER WHEN HE DECIDED I SHOULD ALSO PAY THE VET BILL. IF YOU THINK I SHOULD PAY THE VET BILL TOO THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD PICK IT UP YOURSELF BECAUSE AT THIS POINT IT IS DEFINATLY NOT ABOUT THE MONEY! IT IS ABOUT PRINCIPLE AND CHRIS HAS TRIED HIS BEST TO DAMAGE MY GOOD REPUTATION WHEN I WAS NOT AT ALL THE ONE TO BLAME.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BILL CAGLE @ Mar. 18 2002,02:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">HEY GARY, IT IS OBVIOUS THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS. MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS AND IT WILL HELP YOU TO BETTER UNDERSTAND MY POSITION. I HAVE ALREADY REPLACED BOTH ANIMALS WITH NEW ANIMALS AND THE CUSTOMER CALLED ME AND SAID HE WAS HAPPY. IT WAS SEVERAL WEEKS LATER WHEN HE DECIDED I SHOULD ALSO PAY THE VET BILL. IF YOU THINK I SHOULD PAY THE VET BILL TOO THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD PICK IT UP YOURSELF BECAUSE AT THIS POINT IT IS DEFINATLY NOT ABOUT THE MONEY! IT IS ABOUT PRINCIPLE AND CHRIS HAS TRIED HIS BEST TO DAMAGE MY GOOD REPUTATION WHEN I WAS NOT AT ALL THE ONE TO BLAME.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I have to agree with Bill.
Chris Red you got your refund, now its time to go on. Your just very very lucky it was someone like Bill that you purchased from and not someone like Dale. If you have any kind of love for these Animals, then you need to pull with them and help get to the source, instead of whining. You act as if you are the ONLY damn one that has this problem. Did you ever stop and think about Bill and the others and their animal? In my eyes... Hell NO, you have been typing your life away that's it!! Im sorry for being a little upset, but you need to think about this, the fact is, the IBD came from SOME of Sandiego Vivarium (Dale Picolla) and you, Bill and others just so happen to get a bad animal. What I don't understand is that Dale don't post, he is the one that seems to be looking good here. And he's the one that spread the #### around.
The way I see things, this isn't about trying to save and the care for these animals, its about the damn Money and politics.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BulldogZ20 @ Mar. 18 2002,08:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BILL CAGLE @ Mar. 18 2002,02:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">HEY GARY, IT IS OBVIOUS THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS. MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS AND IT WILL HELP YOU TO BETTER UNDERSTAND MY POSITION. I HAVE ALREADY REPLACED BOTH ANIMALS WITH NEW ANIMALS AND THE CUSTOMER CALLED ME AND SAID HE WAS HAPPY. IT WAS SEVERAL WEEKS LATER WHEN HE DECIDED I SHOULD ALSO PAY THE VET BILL. IF YOU THINK I SHOULD PAY THE VET BILL TOO THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD PICK IT UP YOURSELF BECAUSE AT THIS POINT IT IS DEFINATLY NOT ABOUT THE MONEY! IT IS ABOUT PRINCIPLE AND CHRIS HAS TRIED HIS BEST TO DAMAGE MY GOOD REPUTATION WHEN I WAS NOT AT ALL THE ONE TO BLAME.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I have to agree with Bill.
Chris Red you got your refund, now its time to go on. Your just very very lucky it was someone like Bill that you purchased from and not someone like Dale. If you have any kind of love for these Animals, then you need to pull with them and help get to the source, instead of whining. You act as if you are the ONLY damn one that has this problem. Did you ever stop and think about Bill and the others and their animal? In my eyes... Hell NO, you have been typing your life away that's it!! Im sorry for being a little upset, but you need to think about this, the fact is, the IBD came from SOME of Sandiego Vivarium (Dale Picolla) and you, Bill and others just so happen to get a bad animal. What I don't understand is that Dale don't post, he is the one that seems to be looking good here. And he's the one that spread the #### around.
The way I see things, this isn't about trying to save and the care for these animals, its about the damn Money and politics.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Sorry forgot to sign my name to my post above
Lisa
 
Chris, you need to get a life you sound like a 15yr old child looking for handouts trying to milk this as far as you can, you payed way less for the sick snakes then the value of the snakes Bill took from his personal collection and gave you to replace them, Bill has gone way out of his way to make you happy, I would not have gone nor would 95% other breeder/sellers out there have gone this far for you and you need to stop and let it go, I have to ask this, this is just my speculation and nothing more but are you being couched by Fred Albury and how much contact have you had with him??? because either you are looking for handouts or there is more then mets the eye going on here

Gary
"other people who read this and would consider buying from you in the future might reconsider when they see how you follow up on a problem."
How Bill follows up?? he sells animals as less the perfect at an extremy fair price, things go south, so he takes animals probally worth 3 or4 times the value from his personal collection/breeding stock to replace the other animals, I dunno about you but to me this sounds like way more then 99% of other poeple in the reptile comunity would do, I dont know of anyone else that is just going to say, ok to make this better I will give you my breeders, you know what everyone else does, the give the costumer more of their resale stock(from their querintine room), they give a refund, or if they have a no refund policy they go find more animals else where and turn around and send animals they bought just to make the person happy to the costumer, but no Bill takes his own animals that he has probally either raised up or had in his collection for several years and sends them off to make a costumer happy, so if that isnt doing enough or following through on a problem, I dunno what is, go figure

"I dont think it would kill you to pay one vet bill, now if it were a lot of vet bills then I could see why you would not want to start a precedent here."
you contridict yourself, why should do you think he should be responsible for only one but you see it as being differant if there were more?? I dont get that



Just my 2 cents
 
Ok first off .... I think that Bill started off in the right direction by replacing the animals ( quite commendable ) agin he takes animals from his own stock ( very nice of him ) but If it were my customer and the animals came from me I would pay the vet bill, I might not want to or even like doing it but I would.

Second ..... Jason, the part you did not get was a little thing called sarcasm and I was in a foul mood when I was typing so I apologize for that, but no boadys perfect.

Third ......  I have emailed both Bill and Dale and so far both have been very cordial to me with no BS.  In my email to Bill I stated that I did not agree with the way he wound up handling it that is my opinion and that is based on what I would do to keep my customer happy and keep my name good, but that is how I feel about it right or wrong.  Also I have not had a chance to speak to Bill or Dale yet since when I called Bill he was in the middle of something and I got Dales machine.  Dale expressed in an email that he was not able to post either ....... HELP WEBSLAVE and he asked that I post he was having this problem.  

Fourth ..... I am not trying to defend either party I would like to remain neutral until all is said and done but like I stated earlier I would love to get the whole truth on this.  If the same thing happened to me as happened to Matt or Chris I cant say you wouldnt be reading my " whinning " complaints about it.  Does anyone think if Chris or Matt was happy and ok with the way things were handled they would be posting still ?  I feel bad for both these guys to tell you the truth, but not so much from a breeders stand point but from the stand  point that it always hurts to lose a beautiful animal but then to be raked over the coals and yelled at for expressing what they feel is relavent ......  I can imagine how David felt when he was facing Goliath !  


Fifth ....  This whole thing began with one story and has now spread out to where new things are coming out everyday so if everything were settled and done it would be over but it just keeps getting bigger and thats why I feel like someone is lying !  I dont know who yet but its obvious that someone is just trying to cover their tracks. I want to find out who that is, and thats why people are posting ..... to try and find out the truth.


Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
[QOUTE]Nicole, Pecole, whoever you are you have no credibility here with the wrong facts no email. Also I bet you look funny in a dress.[/QOUTE]<---CFRB

CFRB is neither a correct name nore email addy either.  

Please post your name and email addy with every post as designated by the BOI rules and regulations.

Tony Basica
 
I am posting the report of Matts Boa that was purchased from ( DALE PECOLA ) of San Diego Vivarium. I personally delivered the snake to Bruce Bogoslavsky, the company's personal  Vet for necropsy. With IBD having a gestation period of 28 days, you can see that the snake had been exposed at a minimum of 18 days before Matt received the snake. I am not here to bash but just to clarify the fact that the source was not Matt nor Bill . This could happen to anyone who buys and sells Boas. But the disturbing thing is the denial and shifting of blame instead of the concern of the species,  customers,  and collections that may have received exposed animals. If you are not concerned with the animals or the hobby why be involved, there are plenty of ways to make a dollar.
Charles Barker
2052VETREPORT-med.jpg
 
SHAM, HUH?  IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL THIS? I DO NOT ACCEPT YOUR APOLOGY, AS I KNOW IT IS NOT SINCERE. YOU ASKED TO HEAR FROM ME SOME MORE, SO HERE YOU GO.....

TODAY MY LAWYER SPOKE WITH MR. CHRISTOPHER ROWAN, OWNER OF PET CRAZY, A PET STORE IN SAN DIEGO, CA. THIS WAS A FRIEND OF DALES BEFORE HE ALSO GOT SCAMMED BY MR. PICOLLA AS WELL. MY LAWYER AND MYSELF HAVE BOTH SPOKEN TO MR. ROWAN, AND HE HAS GIVEN US QUITE A BIT MORE EVIDENCE. DALE SOLD ONE OF HIS BOAS THROUGH CHRIS' PET STORE, USING CHRIS' CREDIT CARD MACHINE, TO RECEIVE PAYMENT. DALE SOLD A BOA TO LINDA CAMERON FOR $1200 AND IT DIED TWO DAYS LATER. SHE HAS NOW REFUSED PAYMENT ON THE CREDIT CARD, AND CHRISTOPHER ROWAN IS NOW STUCK WITH THE BILL. DALE ALSO OWES MR. ROWAN $1000 AND HAS FAILED TO PAY THIS AS WELL. YOU ASKED FOR ME TO SPEAK DALE AND NOW I HAVE.

IF ANYONE HAS ANY QUESTIONS, HERE IS MR. ROWAN'S PHONE NUMBER. YOU GUYS CAN CALL AND TALK WITH HIM YOURSELVES: (858)503-0037
I KNOW DALE, HE'S PROBABLY JUST ANOTHER "BAD GUY", RIGHT?!? IF YOU NEED ME TO SAY ANYMORE, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS ASK. I'VE GOT PLENTY MORE EVIDENCE WHERE THIS CAME FROM. WE CAN TALK ABOUT PET KINGDOM, ANOTHER PET STORE IN SAN DIEGO, IF YOU WANT ME TO GO ANY FURTHER. CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR BACK FROM YOU, DALE.
 
THESE ARENT THE FACTS. I SOLD DWIGHT 3 LARGE HEALTHY BOAS. THREE WEEKS LATER HE SAID THEY DIED.HE NEVER PROVED THIS THOUGH YET PROMISED A VET BILL.NO PICTURES OR ANY THING. HE CANCELLED THE PAYMENT OF THE CREDIT CARD. CHRIS HAS BEEN STUCK WITH THE BILL
.BUT I DO HAVE A PROBLEM FINANACIALLY WITH CHRIS.
PET KINGDOM SOLD A MAN I KNOW A SNAKE THAT DIED OF
IBD.THAT WAS CONFIRMED BY AVIAN ANIMAL HOSPITAL IN SAN DIEGO. THAT IS ALL I CAN DISCUSS
 
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