Bad Guy Sarah Selix/Underground Geckos = Bad Guy

[Underground_Geckos]

This will be my first and last response about this issue on this board. As many of you are aware, Jessica has been very publicly upset about her recent transaction with me. There are two sides to every story and so far everyone only knows her side of it. I have decided to finally tell my side of the story because I feel that all the facts have not been disclosed here.

I purchased these display cases from an individual 5 hours away from me. It took a couple of months to finally get them, due to bad timing and different schedules. I was finally able to see the cases in person after my boyfriend’s sister met up with him and brought them to me when she came to my town. Upon receiving them there were 2 damages to a hinge and latch that I was not aware of. I then texted the seller and asked him about it. He admitted to one of the damages, but since they were easy fixes, as well as I couldn't tell if they were damaged from transport with my middle man, nothing more was said.

I set these cases up in my room and had intentions of raising hatchling crested geckos in them. They were completely usable even with the afore mentioned damages. (See picture in the beginning of this thread) after several days I decided that they were not working out for what I had in mind, not because they were damaged, but because there were not enough ventilation holes. I got mold rather quickly using them because of the humidity not being able to escape and decided rather than to buy a drill to make more holes I would just re-sell them. I placed an ad listing them in "used but great condition" because the 2 latches and hinges were easy fixes with some acrylic glue. I realize my mistake now. I feel that though the damages were small and easy fixes to me I should have been specific about them in my ad.

After several weeks I finally found a buyer in Jessica. Because she was 2+ hours away and would not be in town for a few weeks, she offered to pay on paypal, but mentioned that there would be fees if paid through PayPal. I mentioned paying as a friend/family, not to screw her out of a refund if it came to that, but because if we waited to do the payment in person there would be no fees there. She chose to pay this way. I received payment and then she asked me to deliver the cases to a close friend of hers who was local to me.

Thursday I was to deliver them the her middle man. I took the cases outside and washed them for her in my driveway. During cleaning another latch and hinge broke. Now a total of 2 latches and 2 hinges were damaged. I texted her on our way to disclose these damages with her before they left my hands. She was upset and she had every right to be. To make up for this I offered to order her the parts and glue to repair these 4 damages, pay for it and have them sent to her house. She agreed.

We (my boyfriend and I) showed up to the scheduled meeting place and as we unloaded the cases from our truck I pointed out all 4 damages to the middle man as we came across them. I told him so that the loose parts would not get lost. I also told him Jessica was aware of these damages. He loaded all 6 cases/4 stands into the back seat of his truck. All of them were stacked/resting on each other with no buffer in between. We left and I went straight home ordered 6 hinges, 4 latches, acrylic cement, as well as some liquid to help remove scratches. This was enough to cover the 4 damages I was aware of as well as extras to make up for it ($36 out of pocket). Thinking things were resolved I did not hear from her for a few days.

The following Monday I was out of town attending to some family issues. Jessica saw the cases for the first time in person and was not satisfied. I received a message while in the shower. After 30 minutes of no response from me Jessica chose to call my place of work looking for me. I felt this was very unprofessional to involve them in this personal issue between her and I. She started demanding that I refund her money right away. She claimed that there were 7+ issues with the latches/hinges that I did not disclose. I was completely caught off guard. I did not have the $400 she gave me because it had already been used towards bills and car repairs. I told her it would take me a while to come up with the funds. She continued to demand that I pay her back in full like she paid me in full. I asked her for a day to think about this as well as finish dealing with my family and take a look at my finances to give her more of an idea when to expect a refund. She then replied with "I don't want them, I would like my money refunded. End of problem. "

On Wednesday around 12:30 I got a message from her saying my time was up. I did not respond and by 4:00 she started threatening with a BOI post as well as Facebook blasts. Shortly after 5:00 the posts were started on Facebook. This is where her screen shots end but there was more to the conversation that was not posted. Jessica became very obscene with me, rude, and demanding. There’s no need to repost her vulgar language. She also threatened to tell the lady in charge of the expos we both vend at thinking it would cause her to not let me vend there anymore. I don't feel like I did anything wrong here aside from not mentioning the first 2 damages to her before she paid for them. Once I broke the second set of hinges I went out of my way to resolve it by buying the supplies and telling her prior to delivering. I feel if things on her end would have been handled less aggressively I would not have backed away from the situation by not posting/responding anymore. I am not calling anyone a liar by any means, but I do know the condition they were in prior to leaving my hands, as well as have a witness on my end who was with me as they were loaded on top of each other into the truck. If washing them was enough to break latches then I'm sure a ride stacked like that could have easily caused more damages. Again not accusing any one person is at fault, just stating the facts.

I pride myself at Underground Geckos to provide great customer service as well as healthy animals. I feel as though this transaction has nothing to do with the animals I have or produce and it saddens me that my name has been disgraced because of this. It is very unfortunate that Jessica was displeased with her purchase. Why would I purposely screw a transaction up with a person in the reptile community that I have to see on a regular basis and was friends with at one point? I am not that type of person. If you were to ask any other customer that I have dealt with they would not say they had any negative transactions with me.

Jessica,
I am extremely unhappy with the way all of this went down. I apologize for not disclosing the information I knew of prior to collecting your money. That was my fault and I will admit it was a mistake on my part. However the fact that you wanted to go public with this before a solution was resolved had me upset. You say now that you would accept payments however this did not seem to be the case in the messages sent to me, maybe if this had been mentioned there would have been a different outcome. I hope that some day we can put this past us and continue to enjoy this hobby in peace.

To the other two parties involved,
I apologize for you being dragged into this mess. Please forgive me for bringing you into it more than was needed.

Let this be a lesson to everyone, myself included. When selling something in the future disclose everything that may be an issue. Take lots of detailed pictures. To anyone buying something from someone make sure you see the item prior to paying for it. Once you pay for it you are accepting it in the conditions discussed and/or seen.

-Sarah
Underground Geckos

 

[Lucille]

Because she was 2+ hours away and would not be in town for a few weeks, she offered to pay on paypal, but mentioned that there would be fees if paid through PayPal. I mentioned paying as a friend/family, not to screw her out of a refund if it came to that, but because if we waited to do the payment in person there would be no fees there.

When someone screws Paypal out of their fees and yet uses their service (transferring money), to me it says something unfortunate about them. The buyer should have just said no to this scheme, but you should not have suggested it. It's dishonest.

When someone deliberately does not disclose damage, it says something unfortunate about them. Easy fix or not buyers deserve to know about damages goods prior to buying them.

And here in Texas, we have strong consumer laws, the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act allows for up to triple damages and attorney fees paid for intentional deceptive practices.

What about geckoes? Do you disclose issues with your geckoes prior to selling them? When you deliberately do not disclose damage in one transaction, buyers can wonder how you will handle other kinds of transactions.

 

[Kokopelli Geckos]

After reading through all of these replies and Sarah's response, from what has been shown here, it's clear that Sarah bought these cages, used them for a very short time and when they were found to not fit her needs, she simply put them in storage for a while. Probably forgetting about the minor damage that didn't affect her using them to begin with. Since they were in storage, she used pics from when she had them set up for her ad, when she needed some quick emergency funds.
It is unfortunate, but seems to be an innocent oversight about disclosing the damage after it was present and had occurred during cleaning, but she DID disclose it, Jessica DID agree to do the repairs herself and Sarah pointed it out to the middle man of Jessica's choosing in the presence of a witness and one of two things then happened: the acrylic cages were further damaged during transport and handling and/or there was some serious buyers' remorse.

 

[Bobby Douglass]

I think most people would have "buyers remorse" if they bought something that was sold as being in "great condition" but ended up requiring several repairs.

 

[Kokopelli Geckos]

The flaws were pointed out. The buyer and seller BOTH agreed that it was an easy fix in which seller supplied repair items. The buyers middle man did not see additional flaws at the point of changing hands. Somewhere in between giving the middle man the cages and them being delivered )and handled how many times and by how many people??) they became damaged further.
The buyer never supplied pics of all the damages btw.
I have a hard time believing that this was a deal that was done with malintet from the beginning. Could it have been handled better by both parties? Yes.

 

[Chris Kennard]

This will be my first and last response about this issue on this board. As many of you are aware, Jessica has been very publicly upset about her recent transaction with me. There are two sides to every story and so far everyone only knows her side of it. I have decided to finally tell my side of the story because I feel that all the facts have not been disclosed here.

I purchased these display cases from an individual 5 hours away from me. It took a couple of months to finally get them, due to bad timing and different schedules. I was finally able to see the cases in person after my boyfriend’s sister met up with him and brought them to me when she came to my town. Upon receiving them there were 2 damages to a hinge and latch that I was not aware of. I then texted the seller and asked him about it. He admitted to one of the damages, but since they were easy fixes, as well as I couldn't tell if they were damaged from transport with my middle man, nothing more was said.

I set these cases up in my room and had intentions of raising hatchling crested geckos in them. They were completely usable even with the afore mentioned damages. (See picture in the beginning of this thread) after several days I decided that they were not working out for what I had in mind, not because they were damaged, but because there were not enough ventilation holes. I got mold rather quickly using them because of the humidity not being able to escape and decided rather than to buy a drill to make more holes I would just re-sell them. I placed an ad listing them in "used but great condition" because the 2 latches and hinges were easy fixes with some acrylic glue. I realize my mistake now. I feel that though the damages were small and easy fixes to me I should have been specific about them in my ad.

After several weeks I finally found a buyer in Jessica. Because she was 2+ hours away and would not be in town for a few weeks, she offered to pay on paypal, but mentioned that there would be fees if paid through PayPal. I mentioned paying as a friend/family, not to screw her out of a refund if it came to that, but because if we waited to do the payment in person there would be no fees there. She chose to pay this way. I received payment and then she asked me to deliver the cases to a close friend of hers who was local to me.

Thursday I was to deliver them the her middle man. I took the cases outside and washed them for her in my driveway. During cleaning another latch and hinge broke. Now a total of 2 latches and 2 hinges were damaged. I texted her on our way to disclose these damages with her before they left my hands. She was upset and she had every right to be. To make up for this I offered to order her the parts and glue to repair these 4 damages, pay for it and have them sent to her house. She agreed.

We (my boyfriend and I) showed up to the scheduled meeting place and as we unloaded the cases from our truck I pointed out all 4 damages to the middle man as we came across them. I told him so that the loose parts would not get lost. I also told him Jessica was aware of these damages. He loaded all 6 cases/4 stands into the back seat of his truck. All of them were stacked/resting on each other with no buffer in between. We left and I went straight home ordered 6 hinges, 4 latches, acrylic cement, as well as some liquid to help remove scratches. This was enough to cover the 4 damages I was aware of as well as extras to make up for it ($36 out of pocket). Thinking things were resolved I did not hear from her for a few days.

The following Monday I was out of town attending to some family issues. Jessica saw the cases for the first time in person and was not satisfied. I received a message while in the shower. After 30 minutes of no response from me Jessica chose to call my place of work looking for me. I felt this was very unprofessional to involve them in this personal issue between her and I. She started demanding that I refund her money right away. She claimed that there were 7+ issues with the latches/hinges that I did not disclose. I was completely caught off guard. I did not have the $400 she gave me because it had already been used towards bills and car repairs. I told her it would take me a while to come up with the funds. She continued to demand that I pay her back in full like she paid me in full. I asked her for a day to think about this as well as finish dealing with my family and take a look at my finances to give her more of an idea when to expect a refund. She then replied with "I don't want them, I would like my money refunded. End of problem. "

On Wednesday around 12:30 I got a message from her saying my time was up. I did not respond and by 4:00 she started threatening with a BOI post as well as Facebook blasts. Shortly after 5:00 the posts were started on Facebook. This is where her screen shots end but there was more to the conversation that was not posted. Jessica became very obscene with me, rude, and demanding. There’s no need to repost her vulgar language. She also threatened to tell the lady in charge of the expos we both vend at thinking it would cause her to not let me vend there anymore. I don't feel like I did anything wrong here aside from not mentioning the first 2 damages to her before she paid for them. Once I broke the second set of hinges I went out of my way to resolve it by buying the supplies and telling her prior to delivering. I feel if things on her end would have been handled less aggressively I would not have backed away from the situation by not posting/responding anymore. I am not calling anyone a liar by any means, but I do know the condition they were in prior to leaving my hands, as well as have a witness on my end who was with me as they were loaded on top of each other into the truck. If washing them was enough to break latches then I'm sure a ride stacked like that could have easily caused more damages. Again not accusing any one person is at fault, just stating the facts.

I pride myself at Underground Geckos to provide great customer service as well as healthy animals. I feel as though this transaction has nothing to do with the animals I have or produce and it saddens me that my name has been disgraced because of this. It is very unfortunate that Jessica was displeased with her purchase. Why would I purposely screw a transaction up with a person in the reptile community that I have to see on a regular basis and was friends with at one point? I am not that type of person. If you were to ask any other customer that I have dealt with they would not say they had any negative transactions with me.

Jessica,
I am extremely unhappy with the way all of this went down. I apologize for not disclosing the information I knew of prior to collecting your money. That was my fault and I will admit it was a mistake on my part. However the fact that you wanted to go public with this before a solution was resolved had me upset. You say now that you would accept payments however this did not seem to be the case in the messages sent to me, maybe if this had been mentioned there would have been a different outcome. I hope that some day we can put this past us and continue to enjoy this hobby in peace.

To the other two parties involved,
I apologize for you being dragged into this mess. Please forgive me for bringing you into it more than was needed.

Let this be a lesson to everyone, myself included. When selling something in the future disclose everything that may be an issue. Take lots of detailed pictures. To anyone buying something from someone make sure you see the item prior to paying for it. Once you pay for it you are accepting it in the conditions discussed and/or seen.

-Sarah
Underground Geckos

If washing them was enough to cause that damage, as you clearly stated, you should have stated to the truck driver that they were more fragile than you orininally described. You also keep saying what an easy fix they were. That being the case, WHY DIDN'T YOU FIX THEM?

 

[Teatime]

What brand of acrylic reptile cages were these, anyway? Remind me never to pick up any enclosure that breaks while cleaning it...

 

[SoCalAce]

An "as is" listing would have made this a lot easier. I can see the frustration in paying for something in "great condition" and then being told about it's broken parts, and then knowing the distance between us doesn't leave me with a logical "return" option. I wouldn't think that was a simple "mistake," I would think it was a lie. Which would leave me even more frustrated to hear that the money was already spent if I did want a refund. That explains the irrationally quick run to the BOI.

On the other hand, I might consider acrylic cages in great condition if I can still see through all of it. All of my experience with those acrylic cages makes me think that something is guaranteed to break with every move, but as long as the "windows" are not blurred, they are still in great condition.

If people are going to make "street" deals, they shouldn't be surprised that they aren't getting the customer service that they would be provided by a larger company. Once again, I don't like giving the "bad guy" label to someone over a couple broken doors on an acrylic cage.

 

[Lucille]

she simply put them in storage for a while. Probably forgetting about the minor damage that didn't affect her using them to begin with. Since they were in storage, she used pics from when she had them set up for her ad

There is a concept of due diligence, something one knows or should have known.



If an item has been in storage for a very long time, the seller has a responsibility to look the item over prior to sale, especially if the seller uses words such as 'used but in great condition'. She should have known of the condition if she chose to describe it that way, should have checked, should have disclosed the condition to the buyer prior to sale and payment.
Suggesting the buyer make a dishonest payment via Paypal was not a good idea either.

 

[Lucille]

If people are going to make "street" deals, they shouldn't be surprised that they aren't getting the customer service that they would be provided by a larger company.

A single vendor can be as honest and give as good customer service an any large company. There are MANY vendors here on Fauna who work full time and produce critters in their spare time, many who have small reptile companies and who still give great service.

To say that bringing ones money to a small business does not entitle one to expect good service simply insults those small companies that do provide the best to their customers.

 

[SoCalAce]

Lucille, you are right. I'm sure for every one small business that is run by someone that can't afford to refund $400.00, there are ten that have never had a complaint against them and are run much more professionally.

This is a great thread to make you at least think twice about doing business with either of them. I learned that I will NEVER send anyone money as a "friend" through paypal. I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it in the past, but it's not very professional to ask for that.

 

[Teatime]

The truly sad thing about this situation is that these two people WERE actual friends before this incident occurred. Just goes to show that you should never do business with friends or family if you want to keep those relationships friendly. Or be prepared to forgive everything for the sake of the relationship.

 

[Iguanalady]

Regardless of all the facts stated, the seller made a huge mistake by not waiting to see if her customer was satisfied before spending the money. I sure hope she doesn't do this when she sells her geckos. Anytime you sell anything, always wait to see if your customer is happy before you spend their hard earned money. Friend or not!!!

 

[TeguBuzz]

Ok. So where are the pics the buyer has yet to post of the damaged cages?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

The flaws were pointed out. The buyer and seller BOTH agreed that it was an easy fix in which seller supplied repair items. The buyers middle man did not see additional flaws at the point of changing hands. Somewhere in between giving the middle man the cages and them being delivered )and handled how many times and by how many people??) they became damaged further.
The buyer never supplied pics of all the damages btw.
I have a hard time believing that this was a deal that was done with malintet from the beginning. Could it have been handled better by both parties? Yes.

The flaws were pointed out after the sell. I wouldn't state that they both agreed it was a easy fix. The buyer was taken back by the disclosure. That is evident by the exchange between the two after the disclosure.

"Wow Ok" and "we wouldn't have bought them if we had know"

That was a big mistake on the seller's side. There is noway around it. Minimizing it doesn't help.

The buyer asked for a different price and she would fix them but stated the parts would be hard to find.The seller offered to purchase the parts and again we have a new deal. The buyer agreed. This is all prior to the buyer seeing the display yet.

It was been mentioned that the seller forgot about the damage and also that she just dismissed as not a big deal. Either way initially this is all the sellers problem.

This all happened on 2/13 and up until this point I would state if the buyer wanted to back out it is completely the sellers fault.

Hypothetical, when the buyer did see the display for the first time, I would state she would still be in a position to return the cages if the damage was more than what was described and she didn't want them.

After-all, she was blindsided with the disclosure after she paid.

So who should get the benefit-of-the-doubt here or at least at this point?

So here is where it changes a bit.

Is there additional damage than what was disclosed? How did that damage take place and in whose hands? Up until this point the seller is the only person that did anything wrong.

Up until this point the buyer was more than fair dealing with the late disclosure of the damage to the cages. Agreeing to do the repairs.
At the same time, the seller does seem accommodating and trying to make up for the failure to first notify.

I agree pictures of the display is needed that shows additional damage that wasn't mentioned.

I believe since a early agreement was made about the noted damage previous to the buyer picking up the cages that those problems alone would not warrant a return. They had a agreement on that part.

However, good customer service would have been to offer the buyer a full refund when it was obvious the buyer wasn't happy when she first found out there was damage.

So we get to 2/17 and the buyer sees the cages and decides she doesn't want them.

As one poster stated "it really sounds like the buyer had a bill come up and returning the case was the easy way to get it paid."

Just ridiculous. The buyer has done absolutely nothing wrong at this point and there is no reason to suspect that she just doesn't want the displays for any other reason that they are damaged more than she believed.

Who has done anything questionable to this point? Only the person advertising the display.

She paid for a item that she thought wasn't damaged. The item was advertised in great condition. Then when told it had some issues agreed to fix it. Sounds like a pretty good customer to me.

The only thing that would come into play here is if the cages were damaged more during transportation and who should be accountable for that.

I also think the seller coming here and stating this is my one and only post and take what I have to state and that's it, is noway to resolve this.

In the aftermath of the decision of the buyer deciding she didn't want the cages, some things could of been handled better by both.

There are some good points about this escalating so fast. I think having a cooler head would have benefited the buyer more when she decided she didn't want the display. That doesn't negate what condition the display was in.


In the end, seller did agree to take the display back. If there isn't a hesitance on the seller's side because of further damage that she believes isn't her fault due to transportation that could be a debatable point. Otherwise, I think it is a wise decision to refund to end this.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I gotta agree with the majority here, it really sounds like the buyer had a bill come up and returning the case was the easy way to get it paid.

Extremely ridiculous and unfounded. The whole transaction centers around the amount of damage to the display. The buyer hasn't stated anything about financial hardship.

To the contrary, the seller has as to why she couldn't return the funds to the buyer.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

There is a concept of due diligence, something one knows or should have known.



If an item has been in storage for a very long time, the seller has a responsibility to look the item over prior to sale, especially if the seller uses words such as 'used but in great condition'. She should have known of the condition if she chose to describe it that way, should have checked, should have disclosed the condition to the buyer prior to sale and payment.
Suggesting the buyer make a dishonest payment via Paypal was not a good idea either.

Agreed..

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I think this thread was started a little pre-maturely. Should have waited more than a few hours for her to respond... it's not like you guys scheduled to respond to eachother at that specific time.

Since Sarah already agreed to refund you the money, you guys should agree upon an exact date for her to pay you.

I also agree with this. I think a resolution should have been pursued smoother. Even though there were issues and mistakes made Sarah has a good reputation and this should be given a reasonable amount of time to be fixed.

 

[IvoryReptiles]

I paid via PayPal as a "Friend" because Sarah wanted the cash asap and because at the time, I considered her a friend. I was clearly giving way too much credit to the supposed friendship.

I wasn't trying to get around the fees for PayPal, I was making sure she knew that if I sent her the $400 for an purchased item that there would be fees taken.........the price was $400, not $400 plus fees.

Sarah, I have put it behind me. Lesson learned. But I will not be doing business with you in the future and I do not consider you a friend now. You know exactly how badly the units were damaged to begin with.....and you NEVER texted me anything......you used FaceBook Messenger. I will gladly get screenshots of the rest of the conversation (something I see, even with all of your protesting, that YOU failed to do yourself) if that will make things any clearer......and I didn't get rude with you or refuse a payment plan.....you avoided me, there was NO chance to discuss anything of the sort..........so I never refused it. If you had at the very least responded to me and discussed it like an adult, I would have been more than happy to make reasonable arrangements for a refund.

As for those stating that I am to be avoided in business, I hope you never come across a situation where YOU are screwed out of your hard earned money and then accused of being bad to do any business with. I am NOT in the wrong here at all..........the items sold to me were done so with no disclosure about the condition they were actually in......when I stated that I didn't want them after seeing them and seeing that they were in far worse condition than I expected even after she disclosed that there were only 2 issues with them when in fact there were at least 6 broken areas.......well, that should have been an easy fix by Sarah........at least discuss a refund.

Why haven't I posted pictures of them & the damages...........They are in San Antonio......2 hours away from me....I am busy dealing with dialysis and other health issues right now and don't have the ability to go pick them up yet..........when I do pick them up, we will fix what we can and hope we can use them as the display cases we were hoping for......if not, we will sell them......with FULL disclosure as to ANY issues still remaining.

 

[Lucille]

I paid via PayPal as a "Friend" because Sarah wanted the cash asap and because at the time, I considered her a friend. I was clearly giving way too much credit to the supposed friendship.

I wasn't trying to get around the fees for PayPal, I was making sure she knew that if I sent her the $400 for an purchased item that there would be fees taken.........the price was $400, not $400 plus fees.

I do not believe there is any difference in the speed that money is sent by Paypal in reference to the classification, friend or business.
Forgive me, I did not understand your second paragraph. Did Paypal receive its fees for this transaction or no?