Sarah Shingleton, BAD GIRL

[Beyond the Web]

I finally made my decision to make this report, due to the continuance of a bad business deal with such person. If anyone plans to deal with this person, I highly suggest you re-consider. I am not making this report to make matters even, however, it is the BOI and feel it is my right to practice as such.

I purchased a 0.1 Albino Burmese on 12/4/04, she was shipped Monday 12/6 and received her overnight via FedEX 12/7. In all our communication, mostly e-mails, she never once stated the condition of this snake, nor did she mention this snake's temperment. I admit to regret not asking her about these important facts as I should have, but after speaking with other local and out-of-state experienced herpers, I was told that she should have advised me.

As expected, this particular snake was stressed during the trip, so when i unpacked her she did not want to be bothered at all. She attempted to bite twice in that period, so I decided to take her to a local friend, Theron Williams, who has years of experience with an array of reptiles. He said he had never seen such a feisty snake, he even allowed her to bite him a few times and didn't mind the pain. At 5' in length, she is going to need some working with. Everyone's agreed to that.

In one of her e-mails dated 11/30/04 she says,

"The burm came from a breeder at the Columbus, Ohio show sometime last
year.
We bought her right before we bought our house, and we did that in July
'03.
She was only a month old at the time."

That was the answer I got when I inquired about her...

Then asked about her temperment, she responded:

"She is feeding on large pre-killed rats. She gets one about every week
to
ten days. She has NEVER missed a meal. Make sure, when you get her,
to
give her a water bowl big enough for her to curl up in. She loves to
soak.
We mist her cage and give her a bowl and the bowl is where we can
usually
find her.

She is a bit of a hisser but usually calms down. When she is a little
stressed she will strike. She has gotten a LOT better since we've got
her.
When we first got her she was downright NASTY. She would strike if you
walked by her cage. Now she hisses a little if you walk by and will
puff up
if you open her cage."

It's now been 10 days, I decided to leave her alone, covered with a towel over her enclosure for a 10-day period. My 2nd attempt handling her was last night - twice - and both times she attempted to bite, as indicated above, she did hiss, and puff... however, I have come to conclude this snake was never worked with under her in the first place. I have now politely asked for at least some kind of money back due to this problem, she refused and sent the following e-mail prior to her shipping:

"The little brat peed on me when I was putting her in a pillow case!!!
I had
to take her out of her water bowl, and boy, that made her MAD!! I
grabbed
her head and picked her up to lower her in and she started twisting
everywhere and then bam! Poo and Pee all over the floor. So then, I
went
to lower her in the bag and she started twisting again and peed all
over my
hand and all over the clean pillow case. I had to go get another one.

LOL!! Once she got in the bag and we tied it up she calmed down. Be
prepared. She's probably going to be really mad when you open that bag
up!!
If she's warm enough she'll probably take a few snaps at you.

I really hope she does well for you. Let me know when you get her.

Thanks!"

I admit I should have been a lot more careful about what I was receiving, unfortunately it never occurred to me that it would be a big problem with this snake. I am aware that others may say this is normal of a burmese, however, and I understand this is expected from a juvenile-sized burm. I beg to differ. This snake is really angry at all times, strikes from within her enclosure that I have had to cover her up, doesn't like to be handled and has suffered bruises around her neck due to her striking against the cage. I think I was ripped off, but now I will be a lot more careful and should inquire more info. on a snake.

I did learn my lesson, but I sure hope Sarah Shingleton learns hers as well. If anyone plans on buying from her I suggest once again, you look more into any possible issues with any of her snakes. I believe, and others do too, that after careful observation of this snake, her previous owner seldom took the time to handle her.

My last e-mail to her was,
"Dear Sarah,

It is with great sincerity that I write you this
e-mail. After receiving your female albino Burmese
python, I sent you an acknowledgement e-mail a few
hours later.
After careful observation I have come to conclude
that I am dealing with a highly aggressive snake. It
is evident that after several hours under my
supervision, her behavioral issues go beyond the
minimal water bowl problem you mentioned in a prior
e-mail. She literally attacks anything that moves,
including from inside her enclosure!
It has been personal experience that such a
defensive snake, at its current size of approximately
five (5) feet, it will take a great amount of time and
patience to achieve reasonable results.
I do sincerely apologize for any inconvinience
this may cause. It is my desire to work with her as
much as my time permits, and would hate to let her go
now that she's arrived.
I think in all fairness I should be refunded at
least some portion of what I paid for her due to her
highly aggressive behavioral problem that was not
mentioned to me prior to her purchase. I'll be more
than happy to assist in any kind of advertising and,
or shipping costs related to any possible or planned
relocation for her that you may decide. I hope you
understand and I look forward to a mutual party
agreement for such case.

Sincerely,

Peter Perez"

And she responded, quite defensively I might add, with:

"I gave you $100 off the Burm in the first place. She does have a
temper,
but you have to be patient with her. I've picked her up numerous
times. I
have never gotten bit by her because I know to be cautious around her.
I
let you know she had a temper and that you had to be patient with her.
She
just got shipped overnight right after she was put in a pillow case.
Now
she's in a new environment with different sites and smells. She's
bound to
be a bit grumpy and defensive.

Best regards,

Sarah"

Like I said, her being defensive is expected. But not to the level of defensiveness she's been showing me. For her to say she's never been bit by this snake is a total lie. I don't want to ship her back, as this will only cause the snake more stress, and considering the temps. in West Virginia it is probably unadvisable to ship her anyway. Sarah, if you're reading this, I should be entitled to at least some money back. You never offered her for $250. You offered her for $175, and I paid $170 with shipping. Now I know where you stand, and will never deal with you again. It is too bad, because you were my first experience buying from a private party, thus giving everyone else a bad name. Now I am a bit hesitant to purchase from anyone other than a dealer, but if I knew then about FaunaClassifieds.com I would have inquired about her and I should have been more careful about the purchase.

-Peter Perez

 

[Beyond the Web]

Addition:

Her last e-mail in response to my request was,

"Do what you must, you won't be hearing from me again. This was a
private
contract with NO guarantees.
She was worked with but she is difficult.

I didn't send you pictures because I didn't have time to take them, not
because I was afraid to touch her."

I understand this was a private contract w/o guarantees, but if you're honest and respect the hobby and those who enjoy it you should at least warn your potential customers about your snakes' temperment issues. She is obviously admitting there was a problem with this snake's temperment and needed to get rid of her.

 

[SPJ]

That sucks man.
At 5 feet, they are usually mellow. Hatchlings can be snappy but after some work they mellow out. Striking against the glass, puffing up, and hissing makes me think this snake has NEVER been worked with. I've dealt with rock pythons less agressive than how you describe this burm. There is no way she got this at a month old and worked with it until it was 5 feet. That would be several months if not almost a year (depending upon the feeding schedule) for it to get to this size.
She should have specifically stated it needed a lot of work. I can't understand how anyone could sell an animal and omit this critical peice of information.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Pete

No offense intended but this thread should never have been started. The seller stated repeatedly that the animal had an attitude. The level of aggression could easily be intererpreted differently by differemt individuals. Your idea of an extremely aggressive snake might be an experienced handlers idea of an animal with a moderate attitude. It is very subjective.

Now if she had told you the animal was "dog tame" and it turned out to be as you stated you might have a gripe. In this instance though you got exactly what you paid for and IMO were completely out of line in posting this.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

She is a bit of a hisser but usually calms down. When she is a little
stressed she will strike. She has gotten a LOT better since we've got her.
When we first got her she was downright NASTY. She would strike if you
walked by her cage. Now she hisses a little if you walk by and will puff up
if you open her cage."

She's probably going to be really mad when you open that bag
up!! If she's warm enough she'll probably take a few snaps at you

.

I had to take her out of her water bowl, and boy, that made her MAD!! I grabbed her head and picked her up to lower her in and she started twisting everywhere and then bam! Poo and Pee all over the floor. So then, I
went to lower her in the bag and she started twisting again

All three of the above statements were made by the seller to the buyer prior to the animal being shipped. Is there anyone on this Board who would have made any other assumption than the animal in question was aggressive? I can understand the buyer being a little disappointed but the seller represented the animal honestly. This sounds like a classic case of buyer's remorse.

 

[ms_terese]

5 ft. long at 18 months for a burm? I have a 6 month old that is that size. We don't power feed by any stretch of the imagination, but that seems awfully small for a burm that age.

You must also consider that albino burms very often have issues with their vision. The new environment may therefore be more stressful to her than it would be a genetically normal animal.

I can understand your disappointment, but I also know that a change in a snake's ownership and housing can cause major behavioral changes.

First of all, I'd feed the poor little thing...but after that I'd give it additional time and effort.

 

[Roesnake]

Standard questions should always be included...

If someone suggests that a snake has any attitude at all, you need to get more information and some sort of guarantee. You should always ask whether a snake has any feeding issues, and specifically whether it has regurged at all in the past few months. I have bought from reputable breeders and failed to ask very specific questions, and have therefore received less than satisfactory animals on occasion... It's sad that we sometimes need to dig for the truth, but you have to do it.

In this case, I don't think you're justified in your complaint.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I agree with John

Pete,

The seller told you upfront it was a sanke with quite a temperament. As a buyer you are entitled to ask as many questions as you wish before committing to a purchase. Once you decide and unless there is a health issue it doesn't seem fair to ask for a reimbursement.

As far as trying to calm her down I wouldn't cover her enclosure up (unless she is hurting herself when striking the glass). She is obviously afraid of you, the more she sees you and realizes you are not a threat the sooner she will tame up. Wear a sweatshirt for a couple of days and then leave it in her enclosure. This will make her get used to you faster. It will not avoid striking from the distance but it will make her feel more comfortable once you grab her and she smells your skin and clothing. To remove her from the enclosure, always cover her first with a sheet of paper. Only then try to grab her from under the paper while you hold her down gently from above. Don't use cloth as she might strike it and get her teeth entangled. Always hold her with both hands one one foot from the head (to limit striking range), the other holding the heaviest part of the body. Try to avoid her seeing you place the food in her enclosure, this will only make matters worse as she will associate food with your presence.

Hope this helps and you are able to tame her down.

Regards.

 

[Rockford]

Agreeing with John....

I agree with John's post 99%. It does suck the buyer wasn't upfront in telling you that the Burm would get extremely agitated and aggressive. I don't think she was upfront in letting you know the level of it's aggressive behavior. However I don't think I would have post this on the BOI. I am pretty new at dealings over the internet and I haven't been 100% satisfied with my purchases. If I would have seen my animals in person I wouldn't have made a purchase. But that is the risk dealing with folks you don't know and dealing over the internet.
I would stick to dealing with people that have guarantees and superb references. Stay away from brokers and people that you just aren't sure about and you should be OK. P.S. good advice Alvaro.

Happy Holidays!

Bthacker

 

[ChaosCat]

Just an FYI. If the snake was shipped, then shipping will cause stress on snakes. Snakes are also thought to be able to sense stress in people, and are thought to react to that stress.

Just handle the snake as often as you can as soon as it eats, and eventually it should calm down.

Sounds like buyer's remorse to me as well.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Clara.... I'm sorry, but I totally disagree.... you should never handle a snake right after it eats, especially one that is so stressed out already.... you're just asking for regurge problems with a snake like that.... it's like having a large Thanksgiving dinner and then "Uncle Al" picks you up and starts swinging you around.... something is coming up!!.... I agree that you should keep the snake well fed, but give her at least 24 hours before you handle her, or you might be asking for unnecessary problems....

Neil

 

[ChaosCat]

I MEANT after it has eaten several meals in its new home. NOT right after it eats. Sorry if you misunderstood that.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

If someone has an Email Address for the seller she should definitely be alerted to the existance of this thread

 

[Beyond the Web]

Thanks everyone, the only thing I am remorseful about is buying from this person over the internet, like I said... I was told about her temperment, but it was not explained to the fullest extent of detail. Sure, stress is expected during shipping - this is why she was extremely feisty when I opened the snake bag and took a few bites at me, I was prepared for that and wore gloves and long leather sleeves for this occasion. I believe the experience in purchasing this animal from Sarah was a bad experience, I also agree I should have done more research on the animal itself in its temperment however, as a responsible herp keeper I always let my potential customers know exactly what they are getting. This person was not 100% honest with me, and I made an even worse mistake of not asking more questions. Hey, live and learn right? It was my first purchase over the net with a private individual and it's a shame it came down to this experience. Now I use the BOI for future purchases, but before I bought her I was not aware of such forum. For that, I apologize.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Pete.... first of all, I really don't think the seller did anything wrong.... they told you about the temperment of the animal before you bought her??.... If you were looking for a "puppy dog tame" animal, that should have been the majority of questions you should have asked, and when the seller first told you about her "hissing", you should have moved on.... with that said.... If you hold her AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, EVERY DAY, FOR AT LEAST AN HOUR OR SO EACH DAY, she will become very docile in no time flat.... once she learns that you're not going to hurt her, and she's not going to hurt you, that's all it will take.... when she's nervous about her surroundings, striking out is her only defense.... once you alleviate her fears, she'll be fine.... PROMISE!!

Neil

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Peter

I hope you are not taking the comments made here personally since they are not intended that way. As you pointed out, this was your first purchase on the net. In my opinion as someone who has participated in literally thousands of web transactions, You are drastically over emphasizing this situation. The animal has more attitude than you expected...attitude is a subjective thing as I stated earlier. With work the animal will undoubtedly calm down to some extent.

Once you were plainly made aware that the animal was rather aggressive by the seller, 100% of the responsibility for asking additional questions regarding this topic falls to you. The seller flat out told you what you were getting....and exactly that was delivered.

Posts of this sort do not do much if any damage to the seller but, if repeated, they can label you as a difficult to deal with buyer. From the articulate and well thought out nature of your posts I would deem you as an intelligent and overall reasonable sort of person. As you yourself said earlier, this is a good learning experience in asking all pertinent questions before purchase. It should also let you know that your failure to ask all the questions needed to make an informed purchase does not create the need for a bad guy post on a seller who did nothing wrong.

 

[Beyond the Web]

Thank you Neil, I do very much appreciate your advise. Fortunately, she is learning (slowly, but surely) that I am no threat to her. Yesterday I started the process of letting her know "who's boss" (*LOL*) and after some constricting and a few bites she eventually calmed down (after 20 minutes!) and allowed some petting with and without the gloves. This just shows me some good progress. I do plan to work with her, I don't regret buying her, I just wish she would have been more honest and I wish I didn't make that mistake of sending her the money even after she mentioned the hissing. I've been in contact with several different Burms in the past and they all did some hissing, but no biting. So that's kind of what I expected... anyway, I'll keep posting on her progress, I can now leave her w/o a towel over her enclosure, she has not stroke from within her enclosure since last night. I guess that's a very good thing. Once again, thank you.

 

[Rockford]

It sounds as if the snake is so aggressive that it could cause itself harm. If I was selling that snake and describing it I would tell the buyer "at your own risk" and describes it's behavior to a and let them know what they are getting into. Why were they selling it?

I know we can't see the snake and how it reacts but by the way it sounds it's extremely "pissy".
Question: How would you describe that kind of behavior and what would you tell your buyer?

Happy Holidays!

Bthacker

 

[Beyond the Web]

It sounds as if the snake is so aggressive that it could cause itself harm. If I was selling that snake and describing it I would tell the buyer "at your own risk" and describes it's behavior to a and let them know what they are getting into. Why were they selling it?

I know we can't see the snake and how it reacts but by the way it sounds it's extremely "pissy".
Question: How would you describe that kind of behavior and what would you tell your buyer?

Happy Holidays!

Bthacker

Great question, Brett! When I asked Sarah your previous question of, "why are you selling her?" She simply responded, "We have so many snakes, that we need to downsize because she is one of our larger ones."

This I don't believe, simply due to the fact that she's only 5 ft, it's not THAT BIG of a snake at this time. And to say she has so many snakes, makes me believe even more so that this Burm was seldom handled.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

One reallly begins to wonder why

you are incapable of asking questions about the snake before you buy it rather that be surprised about it after the purchase. The fact is , you have no business even buying a 5 ft Python unless you know what you are doing. Even if you know what you are doing, you were made aware of the animals representations. This should never have gone to the BOI , the seller did nothing wrong. Sorry but , in this instance, you just were not careful.