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Scales N Tails BAD NEWS!

P

pituophissayi

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I recently purchased a Hogg Island Boa from Scales N Tails in Denver, Colorado on Thursday December 11th, 2003. At the time of purchase I was informed that the boa was "perfectly healthy". Upon arrival at home, I found that she had a severe Respitory Infection. They agreed to pay half of the Vet Bill, but that seems small compared to what could have been done to prevent this. I have bought from them before, and so far only one animal has been totally healthy. I just figured I would warn you.

Zachary M. Lujan.
 
Zach,

When I lived in the Denver area, there was only one Scales 'N Tails, and that was in Northglenn or Thornton, not sure which. Now I understand there is another location on South Broadway in Englewood, and a 3rd location in either in Arvada or Westminster maybe? Which location have you purchased from?

I had been in the Northglenn location on several occasions, but could never bring myself to buy anything. The store was never clean, always smelled, and I think they only cleaned tanks once a week or so.

Keep us posted on how the snake recovers, and good luck!
 
We've purchased many animals from all three Scales N Tails locations in the Denver area. We've always taken the time to hand pick and inspect any animals we were interested in. We've never received a "bad" animal from Scales N Tails, and we've never had any problems with any animals purchased from them.

Scales N Tails DOES have a guarantee - and if the respiratory infection was noticed the same day the snake was purchased, it could have been brought back that same day.

I do agree - the snake probably had a respiratory infection at the store. If it was inspected closely before bringing it home, this would have been noticed. Signs such as open mouth breathing, bubbling & fluids from the mouth, etc are not easily disguised. So why still purchase it??

Did you agree to them paying half the vet bill? Had you already taken the snake to the vet?

Above all, I'm trying to figure out why you purchased a snake, after seeing it in person, that had a respiratory infection...
 
Doesn't suprise me

I had a buddy that worked there for a little while.(Northglen).
I think the guys at Scales will do anything for a sale. Rich , the manager, is extremely knowledgeable, and a friend of mine. But thier animals are sometimes sub-par. The northglen store is the only one i will go to, the rest are run by idiots, who know nothing about reptiles. I have had a few problems, mainly with thier mite-infested rats. However it is the only store in town that can handle my feeding needs. They just need to stop looking at people as dollar signs and more as partners in this hobby.
Respectfully,
Jesse Smith
 
Im trying to figure out.........

Why was the snake even for sale if it had an RI? That says something about Scales N Tails right there. Does it not?
Jesse Smith
 
Replies

I purchased the snake because I DID inspect it, and there was no visible signs, I went to the West store (20th and Wadsworth) and Nick and Ashley don't really like you inspecting snakes they say are healthy. I have bought from this store before and the animals I have gotten from them weren't that bad. I agree with Jesse about Rich, he is a good guy and will try to help you out and not f*** you over, but he needs to try and get better people in the stores and maybe impliment a quarentine process? Thank you all for the support, and posts. Also, Terese I thought that you would like to know that in the three days of having her home she has improved 100+%, the heat and meds are doing wonders for her. It's still there, but should be gone soon. Oh, and Jesse, you are right that the animal should not have been for sale, and that Scales N Tails needs to view people as more than dollar signs.

Thanks,
Zachary Lujan.
 
Re: Replies

pituophissayi said:
I went to the West store (20th and Wadsworth) and Nick and Ashley don't really like you inspecting snakes they say are healthy.
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I don't care who they are or how much they know or think they know about reptiles. If I'm there in person and about to give them my money for an animal you better believe I'm going to inspect it.
If they are so sure about their own assessment then they should have no problem with you looking it over thoroughly. If they do then I'd just take my money elsewhere.
It's an irrelevant point since you have already bought the snake, but the comment struck me as something that I would not tolerate in a transaction.
 
pituophissayi said:
I have bought from them before, and so far only one animal has been totally healthy.
Click to expand...

If you have had such bad luck with getting healthy herps from them in the past, why do you still shop there?
 
Clay, your point is valid. Scott, I continue to buy from them because Scales N Tails and Reptilian Haven are they only shops that are even close to being decent with health. Reptilian Haven has far better animals, BUT, Scales N Tails is easier for me to get to, but your point is also valid Scott. Although I should have learned my lesson, I continue to think that "Oh they have to have gotten better by now." and in truth I am very gullible (not something that is a good thing when buying online). Sorry to disappoint you all that I am still a beginner and haven't learned my lessons yet, but I have learned this one, this was the last chance I was giving them.

Thank you,
Zachary Lujan
 
Why was the snake even for sale if it had an RI? That says something about Scales N Tails right there. Does it not?
Click to expand...

Jesse, since Zack did not notice it had a respiratory infection, it's possible that Scales N Tails did not know either. Unlikely, but possible.

I don't care who they are or how much they know or think they know about reptiles. If I'm there in person and about to give them my money for an animal you better believe I'm going to inspect it.
Click to expand...

Clay, I agree 100% with this. I was once told by an employee that he would not take a monitor lizard out of the cage for me, because it would bite me or him. I flat out told him - if I can't see it, I can't buy it. Easy enough! The animal was removed from the cage, I looked it over, and bought it.

I purchased the snake because I DID inspect it, and there was no visible signs
Click to expand...

Zack, No offense, but if it was a severe respiratory infection as you stated in your first thread, there would have been signs. What did your vet say about it, and what did they prescribe for meds?

I went to the West store (20th and Wadsworth) and Nick and Ashley don't really like you inspecting snakes they say are healthy.
Click to expand...

That's funny - I've picked out a boa at that store, and carried it around with me for over 30 minutes while I looked it over and pondered the purchase. I don't know anyone there personally. I'm just another customer. I DO know they don't like loiterers and people who want to hold everything, purchase nothing.


I guess my point is - If you don't like the animals you PERSONALLY pick out with your own bare hands, you'll never be happy with ANY animals. Scales N Tails is VERY MUCH a WYSIWYG store. They deal with a LOT of wild caught. If you are going to purchase from them, you need to treat them as the importer - and hand pick your purchases from the animals you would NOT purchase. If you don't want to do this - buy straight from a breeder.
 
The vet said that despite it being a bad RI it would be easy to overlook.
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Easy for you to overlook, or easy for Scales N Tails to overlook? I guess it doesn't really matter - as your vet already stated it would be easy...

So... You bought a snake that had an easy to overlook respiratory infection. You called Scales N Tails, and they agreed (as in, you proposed) to pay for half of the vet bill. The alternative would have been to take the snake back, and exchange it for another one. Problem solved in my book.
 
I've seen animals in Scales 'N Tails that are decent, but occasionally seen some that aren't in good shape. They (S&T) are basically reptile brokers... buying from breeders and reselling them. They don't quarrantine animals they get in. I've a friend who sold em some snakes, and they were immediately put in a display case for purchase. I would wager that the employees just give the critters a once-over when they get them in, and unless the animals look sick, they are immediately up for sale. Ergo, it's up to the buyer to give the snake a good inspection, but even inspections can miss things. If you weren't happy with their return policy, you shouldn't have bought from them.

Frankly, I'm more comfortable buying my reptiles from a breeder, and unless they have something I really can't live without, I don't shop there much. (It's the only place I've found that carries live pinks on a regular basis, so when I have stubborn hatchlings I get my pinks there...)

Of the animals I've bought from them, I've had mixed results. One was a beardie, who did well... another was a pewter who seemed to show an RI or something after I got him home (he seemed to get over it after a month or two)... the third was a female stripe corn who seems in every way a healthy snake.

Basically, treat the store as if you're buying reptiles from a show. Ya don't know who bred them, ya don't know their history or their health, and you're not likely to be able to get a refund if they start showing illness (unless it's within a very short period of purchase).

-Kat Hall
 
Having lived in Littleton, I've been to the Englewood location many times...

As has been stated before, I believe most the problems come from the difficulties inherent with WC animals and a frequently undereducated staff.

I know a few people locally who produce animals and sell them to the shops... these animals are in top quality condition.

I know that many of the animals are low grade WCs that really should spend some time with a middleman to weed out those which may not make it before being chucked into a display.

I wouldn't trust the majority of employees any further than I could throw them ("?With your bad knee, you shouldn't be throwing anyone.") when it comes to both animal knowledge and the level of honesty likely to be displayed if you ask any questions about the animal's origins or history in the store.

While it can be said "Buyer Beware" I tend to feel that this is a dishonest strategy in dealing with the largely uneducated retail market. The crowd which is generated is far less an experienced herpetology crowd and far more a "Croc hunter is cool, lets get a snake" crowd. If someone experienced and educated can occasionally be taken in by a seemingly okay purchase only to have it come back and bite them, how many of these first and second time reptile owners are being suckered similarly?

The real problem though... it's a very SUCCESSFUL retail model. It generates massive amounts of profit for the money invested in overhead and employee salaries. Nothing they are doing is illegal and if a customer is very very careful about it, they can make a great purchase that they'll be really happy with when looking at what they got for their money.

At the Englewood location though, I do have to second the above comments... the place is filthy, there are dead animals all over the place and the employees are liars, ignorant of animal care and frequently scared of the animals.
 
When it's all said and done, ANY time you buy from ANYONE, it is definitely a caveat emptor situation! You cannot know for certain where an animal originates or to what it has been exposed unless you bred the animal yourself. The only thing that alleviates those types of concerns is the degree to which your trust in the seller outweighs the issues at hand.

So, if a breeder/dealer/pet store has a reputation for being trustworthy, buy away. If not, stay away! It's just that simple. However, giving Scales N Tales the benifit of the doubt for a moment, if Zach says the following:

"I purchased the snake because I DID inspect it, and there was no visible signs"

Why would the store be any more responsible for seeing the signs than is the buyer? I mean, if the RI had not progressed to exhibiting the outward manifestations of the infection (remember, the vet said it was "easy to overlook"), why is the store held to the higher standard in an exchange of equal values? They are willing to pay half of the vet bills in question, which is a lot more than bad guys are usually willing to do. I can't see where they did anything wrong in the deal itself.

Now, whether the animal was placed out on the floor for sale too quickly or not ... that may be a different issue all together, but that was not the complaint raised by Zach here in this thread.
 
I have to agree with Darrin on this one.

1. You purchased an outwardly healthy animal that you obviously found satisfactory at the time after close physical inspection.

2. After a relatively short period of time (1 or 2 days?) you noticed symptoms of a respiratory infection beginning to manifest.

3. You then contacted the store and they agreed to split the vet bills with you without having any knowledge of your set up at home or husbandry practices. I am going to make the assumption based on several of these posts that you could also have returned the animal. Feel free to correct me on that one if I am wrong.

Sounds like much better treatment than you would have received at 9 out of 10 pet shops. Given the details of the situation, you could have just as easily posted a good guy thread due to their willingness to make it right.

I see no "bad guy" here
 
(none)

Seamus, you made some good points. The best being about the south store, that place is sickening.

Kat, your are wrong about them being "reptile brokers". less than 20% of thier animals come from breeders. Most of them come from importers(i.e. Bushmaster Reptiles, Xtreme, Cal Zoo).

As for Nick and Ashley, Nick is about the least knowledgable person i have ever met when it comes to reptiles(second only to ashley). I once watched nick probe a snake i was interested in, BACKWARDS. Before i had a chance to stop him, he probed it UP the tail. Needless to say blood started to seep out of the cloeca. On several occasions i have overheard ashley talking to customers and just LYING. Just to get the sale. I recommend you stay away from the West store(20th &Wads). You are better of doing your buisness with Rich, or right here, on this wonderful thing called the internet.
Respectfully,
Jesse Smith
 
P.S.

If the snake had an RI, they probably didn't know about it. As i said they know nothing about reptiles, ESPECIALLY SNAKES.
 
A few comments on the 104th Store

We used to live near Denver, and the store up in the far north of the city was the closest to us.

We bought 3 young bearded dragons from them in the late 90's (can't remember which year).

One became very sick, and despite intensive care by our vet (Dr. Klingenberg - author of "Understanding Reptile Parasites") and ourselves, she died, but not before we spent our vacation money trying to save her.

Necropsy revealed that she died of microsporidiosis. This very rare parasite has only rarely been described in dragons - about 5 cases in the US ever at that time. Having no other animals at that time, and using only new equipment, the dragons had arrived with the microsporidia and not received it from the environment we offered. Dr. Klingenberg stated to us in his case conclusion report that the parasite was in the dragon when we received her.

Further research revealed that this parasite is much more common in snakes, and the conclusion was that the dragons had been put in a cage previously occupied by an infected carrier snake, without the cage being adequately cleaned/sterilized first.

We did not go back to the store about the problem, and I am not seeking to comment on their customer service here. We never bought animals from them again. We did stop in occasionally and over the next 3 years we noticed the quality of the store deteriorate significantly. Our last visit there a couple of years ago, all the cages were filthy, there were at least 20 - 30 young iguanas in a 10 gallon tank. A gecko cage had a long dead gecko lying in full view at the front. It was horrible. We never went there again

Although this is all now old information, I wanted to add it to the Scales and Tails thread as we still feel very sad about the whole incident. I hope the store has improved but we have now moved away and I will never know.

It was an eye-opening experience as I thought that buying cage-bred animals from a speciality reptile store would be a safe way to go, especially with something as common as a bearded dragon. As a note to end - the two that did survive - after very intensive care - are not Pogona vitticeps as they were sold, but appear to be a mix of vitticeps and rankins, and not pure bred.

Skye
 
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