Bad Guy Sean Kirk of Sean's Exotics ([email protected]) is Selling False Hets

[hhmoore]

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:39:32 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about: 07 Albino male het snow and 2 adult het albino females
To: [email protected]

I have 1 left.. What kind of ifno would you like?? She is about 6 foot. Het KAHL albino. She bred for me last year and gave me 18 babies.. The pic of the male albino I have is her offspring.. He was from a buddies Moonglow I had on loan last season.. Sean

The claim that she is PROVEN het albino

From: sean kirk ([email protected])
Sent: Sun 8/24/08 4:07 PM
To: Anya Makashova ([email protected])

Anya,

It was nice talking to you. Here are a few pics.. She isnt as small as I thought..LOL.. With so many boas its hard to keep track. She is right about 6 foot. She is 8-9 lbs.. I think after handling the big ones she seemed smnaller and I didnt actually take her out till now. I am ashamed to say I dont have any cash on me. The pic of the pistol, from the front of the trigger guard to the edge of the barrel is 6.25 inches. So she is about 4 inches across.. Breeding weight she was about 14 lbs but I didnt weigh her while gravid, That weight is from post Ovulatuion according to my records. She was born 4/16/04.. According to my records her Mom was a LG central american at a little over 6 foot(probably a cross herself) and dad was an Albino het snow. So she is possibly het snow her self. I do have to add I never proved out her dad. According to my records I got him in a trade and bred himn to this girls mom and 2 other albinos but none that were Het snow them selves and then I sold him after that 1 season..

According to this, Sean bred the snake himself.

Again, I'm not saying your assessment of the snake - or Sean, for that matter - is incorrect. But from an outsider's perspective, those are the things that caught my eye in your post.

Just figured I would bring this statement back up, so people don't misinterpret my post, lol.
I said earlier that a single, small litter with no visuals does not prove that she isn't a het - and I stand by that. If I was in your shoes, Anya, I would absolutely feel the same way you do...but, at the same time, my own experiences would require that I acknowledge the science. These breedings were not with boas, but the results are still relevant. A few years back, I bred an albino combination morph to a female that I didn't know was a het (I specifically wanted hets, not albinos, from that pairing), and got 16 eggs. 15 pipped and hatched normally, and I got exactly what I expected to in the clutch.....UNTIL I cut the unhatched egg. There, dead in the egg, was an albino. 15 eggs from a visual x het (it doesn't matter that I didn't know she was a het), and 0 albino babies. If I had discarded that unhatched egg, I probably never would have known that particular female was het albino; but, as it went, I repeated that same pairing the following year...and got about 60-70% albino babies. **My reason for sharing this is simply to explain my comment, NOT to sway anybody's opinion of this seller.

It's easy to say that one shouldn't let personal issues negatively impact their business, and I agree....BUT, at the same time, I can look back at another personal experience. I was debilitated for a couple of months - no money coming in, out of work, essentially home bound (I did make trips to the store & to the doctors, but that was pretty much it). If somebody had contacted me about a snake they had purchased a year prior, I would have been understanding of their complaint & wanted to make it right....but they would have been SOL at that time. I'm not saying you are wrong, Anya, for being frustrated - heck, for being flat out pi$$ed - just saying that IF he is having serious issues, I can relate.

I'm curious why, after emailing Sean & seeing his response (basically that he would refund your money, but his guarantee was for the cost of the animal only), you included the clause about him sending you $3300 worth of snakes in that contract. Had he agreed to that in the phone conversation (because the only response I see in the emails was the one I just mentioned)?

I wish I knew Sean, and could offer you at least some hope - even if it was just acknowledging that you might have to wait a while, but you would get your money. Unfortunately, I don't, and I can't - it sucks feeling like you got screwed on a deal (boy, do I know that feeling ).

 

[AaronSerio]

This is what we feel we are out right now:
- $650.00 purchase price on her
- taking our sunglow male away from another female that would have produced albinos/sunglows, which was our desired goal with her
- 2 albinos and 2 sunglows that she would have produced had she been a het

So with just her price and the price of 2 albinos and 2 sunglows, we are looking at $2850 ($650 for her, 2 albinos at $300 each, and 2 sunglows at $800 each).

It's interesting to note that in the contract you wish for $3300 worth of animals with the refund of the original female.

Here you state the price at $2850. How did you increase it by $450?

I'm just looking for details here. Maybe I overlooked something in the original post.

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

I do not know the person with the Boa's. DOn't have boa's myself, nor breed, but wanted to chime in on this.

1. Anya was sold a snake that was suppossed to be a certain type.
2. Snake only had 8 babies in the clutch...probably because of stress or something, but those babies were not what she wanted.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I read a snake breeding article stating that normal babies can come out of any other morph. Maybe she was just throwing normals that time? Anyhow, Anya, you stated that you don't see why you should contiune feeding the girl to try and clutch her again next spring. Does that mean that you are starving her? If you are going to not feed her, I will take her off your hands, because I do not want a snake to starve to death just because she is not a money maker for someone. If that is NOT what you meant...I apologize. Also, if that is NOT what you meant, look at is this way.

You still have the snake, and are feeding said snake. You have not gotten your "money" back for said snake. Breed her again next year, sell the babies for whatever the particulars are worth, and make the $650 back that way. Then you are guaranteed to have your money back, and the snake has been well taken care of. Also, after you have sold enough of her babies to recoup your losses, sell her as a proven normal breeder (some people still want normals), and cut your losses.

To Sean Kirk, you need to get off your butt and make this right. Refund her her money and take back the snake. We all have problems every now and then, but we find a way to keep up with our business transactions, whether we have someone else do them for us, or we buck up and do it ourselves.

Chelsea Baker

Chelsea,

No, am not starving her. She has been taken care of and fed the same as any of our other snakes. I have not decided what I want to do with her yet, as I was hoping for a resolution with Sean.

Anya Hogan

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

The claim that she is PROVEN het albino

According to this, Sean bred the snake himself.

Just figured I would bring this statement back up, so people don't misinterpret my post, lol.
I said earlier that a single, small litter with no visuals does not prove that she isn't a het - and I stand by that. If I was in your shoes, Anya, I would absolutely feel the same way you do...but, at the same time, my own experiences would require that I acknowledge the science. These breedings were not with boas, but the results are still relevant. A few years back, I bred an albino combination morph to a female that I didn't know was a het (I specifically wanted hets, not albinos, from that pairing), and got 16 eggs. 15 pipped and hatched normally, and I got exactly what I expected to in the clutch.....UNTIL I cut the unhatched egg. There, dead in the egg, was an albino. 15 eggs from a visual x het (it doesn't matter that I didn't know she was a het), and 0 albino babies. If I had discarded that unhatched egg, I probably never would have known that particular female was het albino; but, as it went, I repeated that same pairing the following year...and got about 60-70% albino babies. **My reason for sharing this is simply to explain my comment, NOT to sway anybody's opinion of this seller.

It's easy to say that one shouldn't let personal issues negatively impact their business, and I agree....BUT, at the same time, I can look back at another personal experience. I was debilitated for a couple of months - no money coming in, out of work, essentially home bound (I did make trips to the store & to the doctors, but that was pretty much it). If somebody had contacted me about a snake they had purchased a year prior, I would have been understanding of their complaint & wanted to make it right....but they would have been SOL at that time. I'm not saying you are wrong, Anya, for being frustrated - heck, for being flat out pi$$ed - just saying that IF he is having serious issues, I can relate.

I'm curious why, after emailing Sean & seeing his response (basically that he would refund your money, but his guarantee was for the cost of the animal only), you included the clause about him sending you $3300 worth of snakes in that contract. Had he agreed to that in the phone conversation (because the only response I see in the emails was the one I just mentioned)?

I wish I knew Sean, and could offer you at least some hope - even if it was just acknowledging that you might have to wait a while, but you would get your money. Unfortunately, I don't, and I can't - it sucks feeling like you got screwed on a deal (boy, do I know that feeling ).

About the $3300 in the contract, that was his idea. We were saying $2800, but he pretty much said what the heck to make it up to you let's make it $3300. As I said, in hindsight, that was an unreasonable expectation, but I was very ticked off at the time.

Anya Hogan

 

[nixiefee]

Whew

That settles my mind..hope you didn't take offense. Thank you for replying to me on it I know she isn't what you wanted, but could I see a picture of her...she sounds like a sweet girl.

CHelsea

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

Harald,

I see where he pretty much stated he produced her now. Something I noticed as well, Sean stated in one of his emails:

From: sean kirk ([email protected])
Sent: Sun 8/24/08 4:07 PM
To: Anya Makashova ([email protected])

Anya,

It was nice talking to you. Here are a few pics.. She isnt as small as I thought..LOL.. With so many boas its hard to keep track. She is right about 6 foot. She is 8-9 lbs.. I think after handling the big ones she seemed smnaller and I didnt actually take her out till now. I am ashamed to say I dont have any cash on me. The pic of the pistol, from the front of the trigger guard to the edge of the barrel is 6.25 inches. So she is about 4 inches across.. Breeding weight she was about 14 lbs but I didnt weigh her while gravid, That weight is from post Ovulatuion according to my records. She was born 4/16/04.. According to my records her Mom was a LG central american at a little over 6 foot(probably a cross herself) and dad was an Albino het snow. So she is possibly het snow her self. I do have to add I never proved out her dad. According to my records I got him in a trade and bred himn to this girls mom and 2 other albinos but none that were Het snow them selves and then I sold him after that 1 season.. OHH yeah, the pic with my arm... She didnt want to cooperate, My Fiancee is at work so I couldnt get her to take the pic so I did it myself. I am 6'4" and almost 270 so my arms arent all that small to give you an idea..LOL Sean

I believe that if he says he has and deals with as many snakes as he says he does, it is possible for something to get mixed up. Also, when we spoke to him on the phone, he made it seem like someone else produced her.

Here is another email where he seemed unsure of her origins.

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 13:28:50 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Message about: 07 Albino male het snow and 2 adult het albino females
To: [email protected]

Great send me the pic so I can mathc her up hopefully with a numbered file. If I bought her from someone in the last couple of years she will be in this with a pic.

I will be happy to refund the money ASAP, say minus $50 because honestly even a proven breeder normal female I wouldnt pay more than $50 for. Common boas are a dime a dozen and it doesnt take a whole lot to get them to breed.
Im not exactly sure what your asking below, I again understand your frustration and am going through the same thing with someone right now. My gaurentee is for cost of animal only.
Sean

He also states that his guarantee covers the cost of the animal.

Anya Hogan

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

By the way, Adam spoke with Sean yesterday afternoon and Sean stated that he will not be posting here.

Anya H.

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

Here is a pic of her.

 

[nixiefee]

She is a beautiful girl. Thank you for the piccie.

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

Let me add that the picture I posted was taken right after she had given birth that night, so she is incredibly dark and looks thinner than normal.

Anya Hogan

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

She is a beautiful girl. Thank you for the piccie.

You're welcome.

 

[TailsWithScales]

In my first post to you I was just playing devils advocate. Which is to help see things in multiple perspectives. As when I gave the two options and I also said they were not options you would like. But the first option would give your $650 back whether she is a het or not. At this point no she's not a het. But you could still breed her next season and recoup it that way by just selling even the normals. From the photo she looks like a really good looking gal and could probably be sold for a good amount as a proven breeder female normal. You wouldn't recoup $650 from her sale but yes you would get something out of it. As I said it seems you only have two choices. Keep her and breed her, sell her offspring or sell her.

So, I should give him another chance and put even more food and time into this female, hoping to prove her next year? What if she doesn't, and he happens to be out of the hobby by then and could care less? If he doesn't take me seriously now, why would he change his mind then?

So why still continue to obtain results from a guy who wasn't willing to work out a deal with you then and fix his massive mistakes after several attempts?????
I know my questioning may upset you further but it would seem that you have options to recoup what money you can from his being a bad seller and probably fake breeder and move on from it.

Why would he promise to give a refund if he couldn't? If that's the case then wouldn't he be upfront about it instead of making up endless excuses?

Because offering a refund will passafy you until he could either think of another excuse or actually come up with money. And no people who get caught in lies try to think up more lies or just shut up instead of owning up to their mistakes.

For the record, he is the one that is sick, not me.

For the record I never said you were sick. I did say:

On a side note. I have congenital - potentially fatal health problems that put me out of commission at times and I have not one time (nor will I ever) allow that to be a barrier to proper business practices whether it's my buying or selling. But clearly I guess that's just me.

That was a response to him using "health problems" as his excuse for not making things right. Not saying you had any health problem or the like.

Sorry if my post(s) may have upset you. Just stating my opinions /thoughts.

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

In my first post to you I was just playing devils advocate. Which is to help see things in multiple perspectives. As when I gave the two options and I also said they were not options you would like. But the first option would give your $650 back whether she is a het or not. At this point no she's not a het. But you could still breed her next season and recoup it that way by just selling even the normals. From the photo she looks like a really good looking gal and could probably be sold for a good amount as a proven breeder female normal. You wouldn't recoup $650 from her sale but yes you would get something out of it. As I said it seems you only have two choices. Keep her and breed her, sell her offspring or sell her.



So why still continue to obtain results from a guy who wasn't willing to work out a deal with you then and fix his massive mistakes after several attempts?????
I know my questioning may upset you further but it would seem that you have options to recoup what money you can from his being a bad seller and probably fake breeder and move on from it.




Because offering a refund will passafy you until he could either think of another excuse or actually come up with money. And no people who get caught in lies try to think up more lies or just shut up instead of owning up to their mistakes.



For the record I never said you were sick. I did say:



That was a response to him using "health problems" as his excuse for not making things right. Not saying you had any health problem or the like.

Sorry if my post(s) may have upset you. Just stating my opinions /thoughts.

I realize that there aren't many options and this point. I just have to figure out what route I want to take, as it doesn't look like Sean will be posting here and definitely not keeping his word.

You stated:

You've called him out on the carpet (rightfully so) by placing the thread. Not full bad guy yet as yes it's not proven she really isn't a het. But please try to think that maybe he was so willing to help because he want to make it right but truly couldn't. Also if you're truly sick and what you have on your plate is to much why take on another animal to help increase the load??? I'm just trying to state things as I see them in a benefit of the doubt kind of light. I'm not saying though you shouldn't be upset and frustrated. Lord knows I would be.

That made me think that you thought I was the one that was sick.

Anya Hogan

 

[dprince]

Just a thought.....and I know neither person in the situation..........perhaps he offered a refund so quickly as to not have an unhappy customer? Perhaps it wasn't that he thought he did something wrong, but that he didn't want his name tarnished with a "Bad Guy" thread on fauna? If he hadn't offered a refund right away, would that have made anyone suspicious that he was doing something wrong?

Perhaps his health issues include medical bills which is why he's struggling to come up with a refund?

Anya, I totally understand your frusteration, but I thought I'd offer a different perspective. I sincerely hope everything gets worked out amicably between you two.

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

Just a thought.....and I know neither person in the situation..........perhaps he offered a refund so quickly as to not have an unhappy customer? Perhaps it wasn't that he thought he did something wrong, but that he didn't want his name tarnished with a "Bad Guy" thread on fauna? If he hadn't offered a refund right away, would that have made anyone suspicious that he was doing something wrong?

Perhaps his health issues include medical bills which is why he's struggling to come up with a refund?

Anya, I totally understand your frusteration, but I thought I'd offer a different perspective. I sincerely hope everything gets worked out amicably between you two.

Debbie,

I take a lot of pride in our customer service, but even I would not agree to give a customer a refund until I at least could identify the animal as my own. If it happens not to be, they can't turn around and say "Well, you promised me a refund." In that case, I would be obligated to follow through and give them their money back, because that is what I told them I would do. It just doesn't make sense to me that he would make a promise before he could even confirm that it was his animal to begin with.

I have also seen him on another forum looking to purchase animals over the last few months. That tells me right there that his debt to me was the last thing he was worried about. Also, like TailsWithScales mentioned, why would he want to take on more animals if he was indeed so sick??

Thank you for your input,
Anya Hogan

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

I mean, really, how strapped for cash could he be? I got the following links off of the forum that he runs for his reptile society.

Here he is looking for some geckos:

http://nera-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=690


Here he is selling a "hypo" ball which he later realizes is actually a "het hypo" ball. Oops...like that is such an easy mistake to make for the professional breeder that he claims he is:

http://nera-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=684


Here he is looking for ball pythons because his girlfriend is suddenly getting into them. Wait, what happened to all that ball python breeding he was doing and all those 100% hets he was buying? Surely he wouldn't still be looking for hets with all those visual morphs he has now...:

http://nera-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=645


I smell a rat...

 

[VAsnakeman12]

The sad thing is, statistically speaking, there will be occurrences in the industry where someone is sold a het, and it appears they have been lied to. It's like DOA shipping. If you get a dead animal in the mail, and the seller never promised live arrival, it's just a bad situation for the buyer. The seller shrugs, UPS shrugs, and there is no one else to blame it on.

However the seller here CLEARLY agreed to make good on this sale. WHO CARES what his motives were when he made that agreement? Statistically speaking, it's NOT a het. Circumstantial evidence suggests he's flipping snakes to make a quick buck (and flipping fake hets is the best way to do that). AND he agreed to give you a refund. Cut an dry. Anya, you are owed money.

 

[SnakeMan41185]

I all most dealt with him a couple times cause some one told me he would buy the snakes I had and he was some what close to me. But changed my mind after tons of low ball offers every time I talked to him. Then he started to sell my snakes on kingsnake before he even bought them. So my advice dont buy from him. Good luck getting your money back, your gonna need it.

 

[VAsnakeman12]

I all most dealt with him a couple times cause some one told me he would buy the snakes I had and he was some what close to me. But changed my mind after tons of low ball offers every time I talked to him. Then he started to sell my snakes on kingsnake before he even bought them. So my advice dont buy from him. Good luck getting your money back, your gonna need it.

That confirms my snake-flipper hypothesis. If you tell him it's a het, he'll sell it as a het. No need to even have it in hand.

 

[David Reid]

Here is my take:

Mistakes are made. If he sold you a normal female as a Het Albino he should refund you the purchase price. The only way I see that he would owe you anything above and beyond that is, if he knowingly sold you a normal as a Het. That would be hard to prove.

Dave