Info Seeking Advice on Dan Scolardo

[KNOBTAIL]

You know Haley,

I sometimes wonder if you know what you are talking about or are you just filling space in an argument that makes no sense at all... This is the animal business if you have not realized that !
Dan followed the letter of his Terms of Service. The customer agreed to those terms of service and is, unless there's some law in the state the transaction occurred in that would override that TOS, they get to swallow the results of their choices of who to send their money to.

Dan has a TOS just like anyone else who is in business :who sells reptiles.. The responsibility to understand what the limitations are belong to the buyer.. If the buyer is not happy with the risk factor, dont buy ! Its really that simple. I think we both know that some animals are more susceptible and problematic when it comes to shipping.. There is always a risk factor regardless of whom the shipper may be... The TOS serves as a guidline that the seller just like in any other industry.. Almost all shippers have them.. When you are going to make a purchase, you ask what the conditions are to consummate the sale ! So please spare us your logic !


"These are the terms of a person who will screw their buyer at every opportunity." Which they are. Every clause and every line is designed to give Dan a retreat when something goes wrong. Sellers should take the time to write up a reasonable set of guarantees and terms to protect themselves but they should not do this at the expense of their buyer."

TOS is designed to let the buyer know what the terms of the sale are... As I said previously, the buyer does not have to entertain the purchase.. There are more stringent TOS out in the Herp market then Dans... Many dealers, refuse to guarantee any amphibians under any circumstance. This does not make them a crook or assume that the animals are not in good condition..

That holds true for reptiles as well.... That includes the length of the liability upon recipt of the animals, the carriers who ship and a whole host of other factors that may require additional terms depending on the animals involved.. Not uncommon, and certainly a very well established criteria in this business

So please be a bit more realistic, just like in any other industry the terms are slanted toward the seller, but dont infer that the transaction itself is shady... Just look at the back of an auto sale, or a rental lease, or even any herp dealer. Not only are the terms from other animal dealers more stringent then Dans, you may be surprised to find waivers included in the TOS or the buyer may have to sign and return a waiver by fax before a shipment is even sent.... to prevent charge backs from credit card transactions... Dealers, and PayPal users , use these methods to protect their interests. Certainly they have a right to do so... That includes Dan. Like it or not !

Dan won't cover anything that's alive but visibly ill or injured. Dan won't cover an animal that is having issues as a result of carrier mishandling (the carrier

This is nothing more then a assumption that has no basis once the buyer lets the seller know that everything arrived well ! I dont know how long you have been in this business, but if an animal arrives visibly ill or injured, you are not going to send the seller acknowledging that everything is fine ! Secondly, its the obligation of the buyer to notify the seller if any unusual appearance looks suspicious upon receipt...

You dont send an email to the seller telling them everything looks good and then 4 or 5 days later advise the animal is dead and that its Dans fault... and that you dont know what happened. Accoding to your logic regardless of how the animal arrives, whether its 4 days or 4 weeks Dan is responsible and it could never be the buyers fault ! Give me a break..

Many dealers, and more common now then ever before, will not guarantee live delivery if there is a carrier mishap... But if Dan mentions it in his TOS, Seamus Haley is right there always looking to take a reasonable measure, which other dealers do, and blame Dan as another mechanism for cheating people if the animal dies due to carrier mishandling... I know of no one in the industry other then you who seems to use this as an excuse.. This leads me to wonder,

Just how experienced you are in this field.. One gets the impression that your only justification for providing any information is quoting from various statues, or reading into things that are not there, or just trying to bait people into an argument like you attempted with me...I have a funny feeling that the closest you have ever got to a reptile is in a book...! Or possibly a postage stamp.

the buyer paid DAN and DAN should be responsible for delivering

This just proves the above point... Your ridiculous in your thought process. Carriers have insurance, carriers do make errors, carriers do make delays. Its a fact of life, so whatever responsibilty you may want to put on Dan for a delayed shipment or a carrier issue becomes something that Dan has no control over, nor anyone else.

But for whatever reason Seamus Haley feels that of ALL the deliveries in the world, only Dan should be responsible regardless of whatever occurs due to carriers fault.. Why not include highjacking, war, or major plane failure... According to your skewed logic Dan should be liable for those as well..... Enough said..

 

[brrrman]

"I couldn't agree with Lucille more, It's the "little laws"people break and cheap ass standard live arrival guarantees, people hide behind. that will bring the wrath of big brother down and ruin our hobby. Any reptile that dies in 4 days is not healthy when shipped, poor husbandry takes awhile to kill an animal unless it was grossly abused. "

How did you reach this intelligent conclusion ? What if the animal was very healthy and the delay or the cold or the heat or the stress killed the animal.!

I Got this informed decision from over thirty years of keeping breeding and learning about this business. I've seen healthy reptiles rebound from deplorable conditions.
Notice I said healthy. caimans are surviving in southern Florida where there are documented cold snaps in the 30s.We know that many crocodilians, large constrictors, iguanas, and even veiled chameleons are now surviving in Florida. When a reptile dies in 4 days it was either grossly abused, or it was ill already.All this crap about shipping stress and right temps is B.S. Every day hundreds of reptiles are shipped out with no problems, provided the right measures are taken. Shipping stress will not kill a healthy animal, nor will an extra day in a box if the proper packaging ,like styro and heat or cold packs are included.I'm not saying anyone can't kill a caiman in 4 days, just tie it out in the sun with no water. Or whack it on the head with a rock. I do not think reeve or his girl did these things. Dan seems to show up on here every other month with a dissatisfied customer whos animal was sick or dying and he hid behind his lame T.O.S.
Which is why I never buy from him ,or anyone else who only guarantees live arrival only.
Since your so quick to jump up and defend a known bad guy you won't be seeing my money anytime soon either, Jerry.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Jerry, all I can really say is that either you're illiterate or I managed to communicate very, very poorly. Because you didn't understand a single damn thing I wrote.

Nobody else seems to have had an issue, so I am guessing it's the first one.

 

[lanceheads]

Phillip,
I know Spectacled Caimans have established in extreme Southern Florida, (Dade Co.) but I seriously doubt Smooth Front's have, (which is what specie Dan sent) as they are found a lot farther south than Spectacled's normal range.

However, keeping ANY caiman, healthy or not in 90 degree temps will kill it.
This has been admitted? Correct? If this IS the case, then the animal WAS grossly abused.

Your quote:
"Which is why I never buy from him ,or anyone else who only guarantees live arrival only."

Just curious, what sort of terms do you require when you buy animals who guarantee's live arrival only? A guarantee that it has to live a certain period of time in YOUR care BEFORE you agree to buy it? Again, just curious, because I would like to know who the seller is, and buy animals on my conditions which, you seem to imply.

Randal Berry

 

[rosebud945]

Jerry, all I can really say is that either you're illiterate or I managed to communicate very, very poorly. Because you didn't understand a single damn thing I wrote.

Nobody else seems to have had an issue, so I am guessing it's the first one.

As always, your language is crystal clear, Seamus. in fact, as a new breeder and eventual shipper, I appreciate the clarity that I have gained about the law from you and other posters in this thread.


Jerry, you argue like a man with an agenda, hence my question about your relationship with Dan. Your arguments reek of self interest with the personal slams and straw man tactics. We have pretty much all agreed that Dan's TOS as they are written were fulfilled and that the OP was naive and is essentially screwed with regard to any kind of refund or replacement of the animal, but as far as I can see, Dan did break federal law in his packaging. The basis for your responses is not logic, but personal slams.

 

[spawn]

This just proves the above point... Your ridiculous in your thought process. Carriers have insurance, carriers do make errors, carriers do make delays. Its a fact of life, so whatever responsibilty you may want to put on Dan for a delayed shipment or a carrier issue becomes something that Dan has no control over, nor anyone else.

Jerry, first off, you're pushing the whole 'I'm an objective judge on Dan's situation' a bit far. Your whole post up there reeked of polishing Dan's proverbial knob.

Second off, carriers do make errors. This is exactly why shipping services offer insurance. Even moreso, you seemed to acknowledge both of these things in the above quote...which makes me wonder why you decided Dan is void of being responsible for these things when something (if something) goes wrong on the shipper's end. Seamus' logic is solid:

1) Dan pays FedEx to ship animal;
2) Customer pays Dan for Dan's shipping expense to ensure no money-loss on Dan's end;
3) FedEx kills animal by way of damaged package/delay/erroneous problems;
4) Dan files claim with FedEx for the total value of his sent package, because FedEx did not carry out their end of the bargain - delivering the package unharmed within 24 hours.

At no point did the customer pay FedEx - Dan did. They are now subcontracted to Dan to deliver (pun intended). Therefore, if Dan does not deliver the animal in one piece an unharmed, it is Dan's responsibility to give a refund or accomodate the customer for the loss, and not leave it up to the "fact of life".

You've merely sidestepped this logic because: A) you're fighting Dan's fight because he can't; B) you yourself ship animals and don't accomodate the customer for the shipper's error if and when they have/had occurred.

Dan has a TOS just like anyone else who is in business :who sells reptiles.. The responsibility to understand what the limitations are belong to the buyer.. If the buyer is not happy with the risk factor, dont buy ! Its really that simple. I think we both know that some animals are more susceptible and problematic when it comes to shipping.. There is always a risk factor regardless of whom the shipper may be... The TOS serves as a guidline that the seller just like in any other industry.. Almost all shippers have them.. When you are going to make a purchase, you ask what the conditions are to consummate the sale !

I agree, except that Seamus was saying that Dan's terms read like those of someone who's not interested in helping the customer out after-the-fact - quite common in the industry - be that as it may, he was merely remarking that the customer has other choices [and better ones] when it comes to seller TOS. It's not a coincidence that Dan's terms seem to mesh well with the way he treats people who have legit problems that are even congruent with his TOS. He treats them like liars and frauds. Everyone of them. Because Dan never makes a mistake, and Dan has satisfied "x number of customers over 30 years" in the business. Although I should point out [if you haven't read my posts in the thread] that I do not think this customer's complaints were legit/worthwhile with exception to the Lacey Act violations.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Uh... Does fedex even cover live animals in its insurance policy?

 

[Uroboros]

Uh... Does fedex even cover live animals in its insurance policy?

No, they do not.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

No, they do not.

so where is this compensation information coming from? Where are people getting this info that they believe it as fact? ( I asked because, i was pretty sure they didnt... but you know, gotta just make sure! I dont like to say information as 100% fact if im 95% sure)

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

The waiver that Fedex supplies to ship reptiles expressly forbids the shipper from filing any claim for failure of service.

Personally, I will not buy anything from a seller who is "not responsible for carrier errors". Since there is no recourse against the shipping company, if the seller is not responsible, as the only other party to the transaction, it means that that I, as the buyer have to bear that loss.

That is simply unacceptable in my book.

To Jerry, while I agree that Scolaro met his pathetic TOS in this instance, saying that Live Arrival Only is an industry standard is simply incorrect. A lot of dealers in imports use it but a lot don't. If that is all you are willing to guaranty then you do not have much confidence in the quality of what you are selling.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

I've seen a lot of sellers that state Live Arrival. There's nothing wrong with guarenteeing Live Arrival. It protects the seller from Joe Schmoo putting his new baby ball python in a overheated 10g cage and cooking it, and blaming the seller.

That said, I prefer a seller with a bit more guarentee. At no time would I buy from someone with as many bad guy posts as Dan. In my opinion(based on what I read about dan), even if the animal arrived dead, or arrived sick, he might not have made it right. But that has NOTHING to do with this particular claim.

This buyer was happy with what he received. 4 days is plenty of time to kill a reptile without knocking it in the head with a rock. Just because some crocs live where they have cold snaps doesn't mean you can't kill one by incorrect temps in a cage, especially when the temps might be too hot. In the wild, they can bury to get away from eat or cold, in a cage it cannot.

Seamus is correct in his post that it is illegil to not label a box properly for shipping. But that does not mean that the OP is entitled to some refund, just because his animal died well after he received it. He read the TOS, and agreed to the TOS by buying the animal. It's sad the animal died, but it hasn't got anything to do with Dan's illegilly not labeling the box.

FedEx will NOT compensate Dan or any other reptile shipper for a animal that arrives dead, or sick. In my opinion, the shipper is responsible if the package arrives dead or damaged or lost in transit. They are the one that packaged and shipped it, and until it arrives safe in the buyer's hands, it's not a completed sale.

If you bought a baby ball python at a show, gave the seller your cash, and when he started to hand it to you, HE dropped it on the floor and it died, who would be at fault? He would. If he had a friend carry it to you, and the friend dropped it, who would be at fault? The friend, but not YOU. Thus it's the seller's fault for using someone who messed up and dropped the snake, and he should make it right, either with a refund or another snake. To my mind, the same principle holds true in shipping. The shipping company is the one hired by the seller to carry that animal. The seller is responsible for getting the animal to you safely.

All just my opinion.

 

[Lucille]

If you bought a baby ball python at a show, gave the seller your cash, and when he started to hand it to you, HE dropped it on the floor and it died, who would be at fault? He would. If he had a friend carry it to you, and the friend dropped it, who would be at fault? The friend, but not YOU. Thus it's the seller's fault for using someone who messed up and dropped the snake, and he should make it right, either with a refund or another snake. To my mind, the same principle holds true in shipping. The shipping company is the one hired by the seller to carry that animal. The seller is responsible for getting the animal to you safely.

All just my opinion.

Good opinion.

§ 2-509. Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach.

(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier

(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation (Section 2-505); but

(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery.

(2) Where the goods are held by a bailee to be delivered without being moved, the risk of loss passes to the buyer

(a) on his receipt of possession or control of a negotiable document of title covering the goods; or

(b) on acknowledgment by the bailee of the buyer's right to possession of the goods; or

(c) after his receipt of posession or control of a non-negotiable document of title or other direction to deliver in a record, as provided in subsection (4)(b) of Section 2-503.

(3) In any case not within subsection (1) or (2), the risk of loss passes to the buyer on his receipt of the goods if the seller is a merchant; otherwise the risk passes to the buyer on tender of delivery.

(4) The provisions of this section are subject to contrary agreement of the parties and to the provisions of this Article on sale on approval (Section 2-327) and on effect of breach on risk of loss (Section 2-510).

 

[Seamus Haley]

Something to also consider...

Local laws at the point of sale can over-ride a seller's Terms of Service. A Terms of Service agreement is along the lines of a company policy, not something that is necessarily legally binding, especially if it conflicts with whatever the applicable laws are that cover the sale.

There are some areas that mandate a guarantee period on the sale of live animals.

There are other areas where a dealer is automatically responsible for delivering a product or a refund once they have been paid; if a third party carrier is contracted to fulfill that obligation, then that business is between the dealer and the subcontractor, not the end customer and the subcontractor.

Various laws exist that are specific to credit card purchases (including credit cards linked through PayPal) or shipments that cross state lines...

All of which can contradict and utterly over-write a company policy TOS. I'm uncertain what the actual details are when it comes to the laws surrounding animal sales in Florida but without investigating them thoroughly, a TOS written up by a dealer may or may not be applicable.

Even if everything Dan has written up is legal- it's still a terrible set of terms that customers should read and reject before making a purchase with him. Although he's a man who went and changed his posted TOS during a past incident when a customer came looking for a refund on the DOA animals she received.

Bottom line... Dan is a thief, who takes money and doesn't always deliver. Who lies about anything at the drop of a hat. Who never acknowledges even the slightest hint of responsibility or guilt. No matter how much or little he is to blame in this specific situation- nobody should do business with him.

 

[spawn]

Uh... Does fedex even cover live animals in its insurance policy?

Holy crap Alicia. Please reread my post before running with 'FedEx doesn't cover live animals'. If the package is late or mishandled or shows up at the wrong place - you have the right to file a claim and get insurance. This is most crucial when you ship overnight - you've paid for a quick timeframe. Never did I once say FedEx was going to cover your animal if it dies per se.

I don't know why this is still even an issue. I thought we settled the whole subcontractor is responsible for his subcontractee's duties last year in another D. Scolaro thread...not the customer.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

If the package is late or mishandled or shows up at the wrong place - you have the right to file a claim and get insurance. This is most crucial when you ship overnight - you've paid for a quick timeframe.

That's just it Frank...you don't. The waiver Fedex offers to reptile shippers absolves them of any liability. If something happens, you are SOL.

That's why it is so important to take a good look at a sellers TOS

 

[Southern Wolf]

Uh... Does fedex even cover live animals in its insurance policy?

No they dont. When you sign the waiver with Fed Ex to ship live harmless reptiles.... you wave all right to a refund because of screwups on their end. Says so right there in the waiver.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Holy crap Alicia. Please reread my post before running with 'FedEx doesn't cover live animals'. If the package is late or mishandled or shows up at the wrong place - you have the right to file a claim and get insurance. This is most crucial when you ship overnight - you've paid for a quick timeframe. Never did I once say FedEx was going to cover your animal if it dies per se.

I don't know why this is still even an issue. I thought we settled the whole subcontractor is responsible for his subcontractee's duties last year in another D. Scolaro thread...not the customer.

Wasnt running with anything. Thanks!

 

[spawn]

That's just it Frank...you don't. The waiver Fedex offers to reptile shippers absolves them of any liability. If something happens, you are SOL.

You're telling me if you pay for overnight shipping and it takes 48 hours to get there...you're unable to file a claim with FedEx? Then what did you pay for insurance for? (I should point out I don't ship with FedEx)

This doesn't make sense now. Are you telling me Seamus' logic is faulty? Is it possible that Seamus is dare I say...wrong??! Now I'm really worried.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

You're telling me if you pay for overnight shipping and it takes 48 hours to get there...you're unable to file a claim with FedEx? Then what did you pay for insurance for? (I should point out I don't ship with FedEx)

This doesn't make sense now. Are you telling me Seamus' logic is faulty? Is it possible that Seamus is dare I say...wrong??! Now I'm really worried.

Uh, Mind showing me where Seamus says fedex will refund your money for live animal shipments if they are late or if something happens to the box in transit?

Granted, ive only just quickly browsed through his posts, But if you can show me, that would be extra helpful. Thanks.

Not a refund by other means to get the money back from Dan.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

You're telling me if you pay for overnight shipping and it takes 48 hours to get there...you're unable to file a claim with FedEx? Then what did you pay for insurance for? (I should point out I don't ship with FedEx)

Because they ask you if you want it. It wont DO anything for you though, because you signed a secondary agreement saying "Fedex aint reponsible for anything about this shipment"

They can smash it up and you have NO recourse.