Selective spider breeding

[SPJ]

What do you think about this idea?

I was thinking that the only spiders that should be used for breeding are those that show NO signs of neurological problems (wobble).
What got me thinking was the poor spider that Corey Woods posted a pic of on KS. The thing lays in the tub looking dead with it's head all contorted. He was going to breed this snake but thankfully (IMO) it shows no interest in that.I have also heard of bees and normal spider sibs showing the problems.

Do any of you feel that the spiders with wobbles should not be bred? I think starting with an animal that has never shown the problem from hatchling to adult would be the only animal you should breed. Any that do show the problem should be "pet" animals only.

This trait shows up way too often in the spider gene and I do not think it is "cute". When I looked for a spider, one of my criteria was NO WOBBLE since I planned on using it as a breeder.

I realize it would be difficult to get all people to stop breeding the wobblers but I feel it is ethically wrong to breed an animal exhibiting a neurological problem.

 

[Cat_72]

I couldn't agree more, Steve.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

I've got a wobble spider female. Bought her as 100% healthy and got a wobble-headed snake. Still no resolution fromt he seller even as he thinks the snake is fine. "Oh yeah, I'd breed her" was the actual comment.
I won't be breeding her. The ONLY way I WOULD breed her, is if I could find a second male spider wobbler to use as scientific subjects for a university study. There is a PhD vet that studies neurological issues in reptiles. I've been talking to him. Other than that possibilty, Hepburn isn't about to get bred. She is my $2200 lesson in buying from supposedly reputable breeders.
Theresa

 

[garweft]

To me it is the same thing as a one eyed albino boa, a kinked caramel albino, or a leopard gecko with a abnormaly short tail. Poor specimens should be culled so that they will never be used for breeding.

However money makes people do funny things.

 

[LadyOhh]

To be devils advocate for a moment, it has been said by many that Spiders that wobble produce non-wobblers, and the other way around as well.

What is your take on that?

I'm rather curious what the basis is for the wobble myself, but since this is just becoming more public knowledge, I'm curious what people think.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

That is actually one reason why I'd like to see a breeding for study. None of the babies would be sold, but perhaps placed in 'foster' homes with a contracted agreement that they wouldn't be bred, and would be available for examanations regularly. More likely I'd end up with some, with the vet keeping some.. that sort of thing.
Since it shows itself SO often in spiders... I cannot see it NOT being somehow genetic. I've never heard of anyone breeding two wobbles together. A recessive flaw? I don't know, but it would be a thing to check into. I know that people will chime in to say "Oh I had a.. or knew someone who's cousin had a... or saw one for sale... that was a wobble without being a spider." BUT.. most of the wobbles I hear of seem to be spiders. I'd love to somehow contribute to clearing spiders of this undesirable flaw trait.
I love spiders.. and personality wise.. both of mine(wobble headed and the normal male) are GREAT snakes. Wonderfully personable. Everyone at the UF vet hospital ADORED Hepburn for her stay. If she WASN'T a wobbler I'd breed her SO fast!! (as soon as she grows up of course LOL)
I was also told "She'll out-grow it" which she has not. "It could be parasites" which it is not, she has been on anti-parasitic. "It must be stress from shipping" which would have disappeared and it hasn't. She is a 'spinner' or a 'wobbler' and was(most likely) hatched this way, and will die this way.
On this note: I am still looking for a wobble-headed male, but I won't be paying any $2K for it! LOL. Can't afford to pay that much even to help out the study.
Theresa

 

[Melinda]

Theresa, I am so sorry to hear of your wobbler. I would love to get a spider someday, but scared of this wobbling/spinning stuff.

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

Theresa, I am so sorry to hear of your wobbler. I would love to get a spider someday, but scared of this wobbling/spinning stuff.

I've a sweet CH boy BP that started the whole love of Pythons for us, he developed a defect at age 2 & will never be bred. Selective breeding is about picking & breeding only the best & healthiest animals. We still don't know enough about the genetics to say for certain what is what.

Back when Kevin (NERD) was looking for the Super Spider (before it was agreed that the trait is likely just simple Dom) there was a lot of line breeding... I picked my Spider because the person I bought from had bred 2 generations and NOT line bred. I don't know if that made a difference, but that's what I did. My '05 girl is not a wobble-head and she's very healthy. I am interested in the true cause of the defect, I hope I don't ever have any offspring with the defect- if I did, they would NOT be bred.

I've waited until now to start a T+ project using unrelated hets due to the "kink" issue. I still believe that this colour trait is very sensitive to line breeding and therefore will be using plenty of hets & different strains... I figure it's a 5 year project, but what the heck. While I know line-breeding is necessary to prove out the genetics on WC or CH; for most folks who work with CB should be able to keep defects way down by out crossing as much as possible. (IMHO) -Deb

 

[SPJ]

My take on wobble head spiders that are bred and have some offspring not showing the trait is this.

The genetic flaw that appears to be tied to the spider gene may not be passed down to all of the offspring, however, it has documented that a spider with a wobble may not produce spiders that wobble but can produce normal sibs with the trait as well as bees with it when bred to a pastel. Now even some people have suggested that pinstripes can show the wobble head. There has to be something linked to the pattern mutation (since pinstripes and spiders both have a similiar type of reduced pattern) and neurological problems. I am beginning to wonder if the reason the so-called super form of the pin has not been photographed is because it has severe neurological problems that would cause issues if a picture was released to the public. If you produced the first apparent super of this animal, why be so secretive and not release a picture? Even if it needs additional breedings to confirm, you would think a photo would be posted. I mean come on, any different looking BP is broadcast all of the net.

Some say that spiders outgrow the problem. I really don't buy that argument since it seems that the largest producers of spiders are the ones that keep saying this.

Also some spiders not showing it at birth have developed it as they get older.

That was the reason why I think only spiders that do not show it from birth to adult are the only ones that should be bred.

Something neurological is tied to the spider gene (or the reduced pattern mutation itself). The only ones who seem to advocate ignoring the problem are mass producers of spiders.

Just like one eyed boas, wobble head spiders should not be bred. It is a genetic flaw and not just a "cute" thing that spider morphs do.

 

[SPJ]

I've a sweet CH boy BP that started the whole love of Pythons for us, he developed a defect at age 2 & will never be bred. Selective breeding is about picking & breeding only the best & healthiest animals. We still don't know enough about the genetics to say for certain what is what.

Back when Kevin (NERD) was looking for the Super Spider (before it was agreed that the trait is likely just simple Dom) there was a lot of line breeding... I picked my Spider because the person I bought from had bred 2 generations and NOT line bred. I don't know if that made a difference, but that's what I did. My '05 girl is not a wobble-head and she's very healthy. I am interested in the true cause of the defect, I hope I don't ever have any offspring with the defect- if I did, they would NOT be bred.

I've waited until now to start a T+ project using unrelated hets due to the "kink" issue. I still believe that this colour trait is very sensitive to line breeding and therefore will be using plenty of hets & different strains... I figure it's a 5 year project, but what the heck. While I know line-breeding is necessary to prove out the genetics on WC or CH; for most folks who work with CB should be able to keep defects way down by out crossing as much as possible. (IMHO) -Deb

Very good point. A LOT of line breeding was done to try and find the super form. Those animals were the source of a lot of peoples breeding stock. Line breeding IMO intensified the genetic "flaw".

 

[Double "D" Reptiles]

It sounds like the original stock animals need to be examined closely as well as each successive set of offspring to see where the flaw appeared. Only when the breeding records are made available (if they were indeed kept in a scientific manner) will there be any chance of making a well informed hypothesis as to the origin of the problem as well as a planned course of action to eliminate the undesirable trait while retaining the morph in all of it's glory. That is truly one of the greatest flaws to our hobby which dog and cat breeders have done a fairly good job of working out through reputable organizations that keep breeding records and pedigrees (AKC among others.) Breeders, prospective breeders and pet owners can research their pure-bred animals ancestry as reported to the organization. I know it's been tried before with herps and failed miserably but, damn, the least we could do as hobbyists and breeders is to keep records and be more than willing to share them with the rest of the community when something like this arises.

I love the spiders and bees, can't afford them at this time and wouldn't purchase a questionable animal with this possible genetic flaw even if I did have the $$. I feel deeply sorry for anyone who laid out this kind of money and got one with people making all kinds of claims but not coughing up a dump truck load of records to assist in scientifically qualifying the possible problem and solutions.

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

... That is truly one of the greatest flaws to our hobby which dog and cat breeders have done a fairly good job of working out through reputable organizations that keep breeding records and pedigrees (AKC among others.) Breeders, prospective breeders and pet owners can research their pure-bred animals ancestry as reported to the organization. I know it's been tried before with herps and failed miserably but, damn, the least we could do as hobbyists and breeders is to keep records and be more than willing to share them with the rest of the community when something like this arises.

Very good points!

As an animal breeder who has only recently gotten into HERPs I take both dog & rabbit experience into my herps; AKC has it's good & bad, but record keeping is definitely on the plus side.

Also I worked with a co-dom trait in producing Holland lop rabbits this trait is homozygous lethal (which is why I believe the Spider was line-bred to the extent it was; another possible homozygous lethal trait).

Line breeding CAN re-enforce many specific GOOD things in a trait- the downside is it also will magnify ALL flaws. In rabbits where we know MUCH more about the genetics; they will line breed to 3 generations MAX! Yet in snakes, line breeding well beyond that limit happens all the time- YIKES!

Yes, I am tainted with prior mammal experience. It may be overkill, but unless I'm proving out a CH or WC I will try refrain from line breeding- and under no circumstance beyond 3 generations.

 

[Clay Davenport]

First off, good luck convincing all the people who paid 2 or 3 grand for their wobble headed spider not to breed it. Your convictions, while noble and formed with the best of intentions, simply will not be held by the vast majority of keepers despite the apparent support you have from the contributors in this thread.
If it was possible to seperate the the gene responsible for the spider pattern from the gene responsible for the wobble, it is far too late to do so.
That being said, I'm not sure they can be separated in the first place. It is my understanding that the wobble is not something that popped up at some point in the project and wasn't culled, the original founding male had it.

Perhaps he just happened to be carrying an additional gene which caused the wobble, or perhaps that gene is actually linked to the spider gene itself and is present in all spiders with only the intensity of the effect being the variable.
If it is a separate gene entirely then it is not recessive. It's also not codominant either. It's been demonstrated that non-wobbling parents can produce offspring with the wobble and vice versa. If it were codom or dominant then the parent would have to have the wobble in order to produce offspring with it.
If it were recessive, then a wobbling spider bred to a normal would almost always produce a non-wobbling clutch and the numbers of specimens exhibiting the condition would be far less.

The only factor that supports the idea that the wobble gene is not genetically linked to the spider gene is it has been claimed that a few normal spider siblings have been born with the wobble. I personally am not convinced this is true. I have hatched 100% normal ball pythons from snakes that have no spiders in their history that have exhibited a wobble very similar to that seen in spiders, but they only did it at feeding time, an effect of high alertness. This behavior disappeared in less than a year as muscle control developed.
I think it's possible that people have seen this in spider siblings and attributed it to the spider wobble effect.

The fact that individuals who have never exhibited the wobble can produce first generation offspring who do, makes it extremely unlikely that you could even isolate the gene so it could be removed from the pool.
At this point I do believe the wobble condition is genetically linked to the spider gene, but some individuals simply suffer from it very mildly or not at all. Since they can still produce wobbling offspring, it's obvious that despite the fact they don't wobble, they still possess the gene.
It will be interesting to revisit this subject in 10 years to see if anyone will be capable of even putting together a closed breeding group in which no wobbles are ever produced. If that happens then my theory will be proven incorrect, but it will take MANY wobble free clutches and a number of generations to gain enough data to conclusively say the condition has been eliminated from a given group.
I'm not confident that will happen though, and as far as eliminating the wobble from captive bloodlines entirely, I'm afraid that's an all but impossible goal.

 

[CornNut]

Clay,

Good points.

I also question the report of non spider siblings showing the spinning. This is the first place I've heard of that.

I have however heard from more than one large breeder that ALL spiders exhibit the problem to some degree. It was suggested that a good test would be to touch your spider on the nose and watch it flip out.

However, I'm not ready to completely discount the claims by some to have, in some cases large numbers, of non spinning spiders. There has to be some variable as to why the tendency to spin is more pronounced in some spiders than others and why it can vary within the lifetime of an individual spider. I think figuring that variable out might be our best bet to treat the problem.

Given the unprecedented degree of outbreeding in the spiders to date with almost no inbreeding I strongly suspect that it's the spider mutation its self that is causing the spinning and not a separate gene that could be bred out. Just like white sides and reduced pattern the spinning seems to be another expression of the spider mutation. Sure we can keep trying to cull the spinning out and it might eventually work some how by stumbling on a gene that compensates for that symptom or a slight further mutation of the mutant allele of the spider locus to keep the pattern but leave the spinning behind but it also might never happen.

I think our best bet is if we can validate claims of collections with large numbers of spiders showing little evidence of spinning and figure out what the variable is (nutrition, temperature, humidity, etc.) and hope to find a treatment. Unfortunately, when finances are involved reliable information can be hard to come by.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

It won't be easy, but I feel it has at least the same chance of success as the idea of weeding out the kinking in Caramel Albinos.
I've touched Sam(my spider male-non-wobbler) on his nose a lot of times, he's NEVER shown any wobbles. So the idea that you can see wobbles in every spider is false(unless I have the ONLY known one in existance, which I doubt).
I've noticed that people who produce little to no spiders, tend to say things like "All spiders exhibit it" while large producers of spiders will deny that it happens often. Whether thise would be delibrite(I doubt that) or whether it's a case of kennel blindness(my personal theory, MY snakes don't have any problems although everyone else's snakes might have problems) I'm not sure.
I do know that Hepburn wobbled when she came out of the box, but I didn't notice that it was something wrong, I was putting her quickly into a bin to relax after being shipped to me. When I examined her about a week later(plenty of time to settle in) then I immediately noted this horrifieing wobble. I called Neil Golli, in a total panic thinking IBD. He reassured me over that, and described the wobble syndrome.
The seller told me on two occasions that they HAD a wobbler. He repeatedly told me he would breed her no problem, he hadn't wanted to sell her anyway, and would replace her with a hatchling(she is 600 grams at this point due to him not returning emails, waffling over whether it was a problem etc). When I told him a hatchling was unacceptable he waffled more. Last time I heard from him (Cornered him at a show) he assured me he would get a replacement at about the same size. That's the last I heard from him again. At this point, I'm trying to gather all my emails to go to the BOI on it.
We'll see eventually.
Theresa

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

...
I've touched Sam(my spider male-non-wobbler) on his nose a lot of times, he's NEVER shown any wobbles. So the idea that you can see wobbles in every spider is false(unless I have the ONLY known one in existance, which I doubt)... IBD. He reassured me over that, and described the wobble syndrome.

Theresa

My Spider is also wobble free. She enjoys when I touch FT rat noses to hers then she engulfs their heads in her mouth easier. She's never wobbled & at 2 years I hope she never does. If she did, she would not be bred- period.

I am aware that other folks may or may not cull to the degree I will- to each their own. Change starts one person at a time, if enough folks feel it's important enough to do you soon have a trend. I will closely observe my spider's hatchlings and I hope I won't see any wobbles- if I do they will not be bred.

To worry about what someone else does & use it as a reason to lower my standards sounds too much like making an excuse. Excuses are used to keep folks from making changes. I feel this is important enough so I'll do the culling. What others do, good luck to them. Perhaps I'm doing overkill, but as long as I'm doing what I love I'll do it in a way I feel is proper then it's all good.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

And YOU will one day be that person with the completely wobble-free bloodline perhaps. Because you value qulaity above all else.
Kudos to you.
I see people breeding their limping little poodle-dogs with bad knees, and I'm sure some breed the kinked back caramels, and the wobble-headed spiders. Don't make it right.
Wolfy

 

[LadyOhh]

I have greatly enjoyed this thread, and have discussed it with several other people as well... A topic dear to my own heart.

So my other Devil's advocate question is this...

There is a theory spinning around cyber space that spiders that are "clean" (no alien heads) exhibit the trait of wobbling/spinning much more often than those with more pattern to them (dots on the sides, etc).

Does anyone have a comment on that?

 

[Clay Davenport]

I will closely observe my spider's hatchlings and I hope I won't see any wobbles- if I do they will not be bred.

Herein will lie your problem though. If your spider does produce offspring with the wobble, then your female will be shown to possess the gene that causes wobbling, in whatever form it might be. If your intent is to attempt to get rid of the gene and develop a wobble free breeding group, then your female must be retired as well. It isn't enough to just cull the wobbling offspring because if you are working on the assumption that the condition can actually be eliminated then the non wobbling siblings will also carry the possibility of producing wobbling offspring just as their wobble free parent did.
The first wobble that is produced results in the necessity of restarting the project with a new wobble free founding animal until you eventually acquire one that never throws a wobbler.

Until now I would have never imagined actually using that many variations of the word wobble in a single paragraph......

At any rate, I do sincerely wish you luck in developing a group that is genuinely wobble free. I would love to think that is possible, but at this point I still hold the position that it will not be accomplished. Until proven otherwise I believe the wobble trait is genetically linked to the spider gene, and a certain percentage of individuals simply do not exhibit the symptoms.
Based on that belief, I expect you will produce some with wobbles regardless of how many founding animals you use in the attempt.
Hopefully I am wrong.

Wobbling was the dirty little secret of spiders for a long time, especially when they were asking 15 grand each for one. No one wanted to rock that boat load of cash. Now that it has become common knowledge, some apparently believe it was introduced or spontaneously manifested itself somewhere along the line when it was actually there from the beginning.
I fully agree with Randy in that we also need to examine whether there are any external influences which can cause the condition to be manifested to a greater or lesser degree. There has to be some basis for the variance seen with this condition ranging from barely noticeable to incapacitating.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Hahaha, I can't read that without laughing. Having to use the term "wobble" just makes it sound like 'seseme street does science.' Oh man...
I was thinking about that same point, that the parent that threw the wobbling offspring would need to be eliminated as well. If you used a male and female spider to produce the offspring, you'd have to individually test each one to see who threw it. Not to mention if you have a wobble-headed one in a clutch three years later from the same parent, do you go back and cull out all of the siblings? It gets comlex quickly, BUT by eliminating all the wobble-headed ones only, you are still doing better than simply breeding all of them, wobble-headed ones too.
Ever TRY to say "Wobble-headed ones"? I keep going "Wobble-headed Wons" and now my neighbor at the coffee shop is laughing at me.
My tongue is cramping now.
Wolfy