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Bad Guy Seller TimTina - Shipping NEONATE CHAMS!

If you knew the "Industry Standard" was 3 inches, then why buy one that you knew was going to be less than 2 inches?

I have since learned that tidbit.. as in, AFTER this one arrived (by speaking with experienced owners who actually care about their pets). It's my fault. I should have know in advance that some sellers don't really care about their pets and want to flip them for profit regardless if it's in their pets best interest. Lesson learned, peeps.
 
THIS CHAM WAS NOT READY TO BE SHIPPED AND/OR LEAVE THE NEST. And that's the bottom line regardless of WHO the buyer was.


You know...your right! I will take you word on it then:thumbsup:
Good luck here! Hope someone will give you the "help" you were seeking....
 
You did ask for a smaller cham and they can vary in size quite a bit even in the same clutch. The chameleon will probably not starve to death waiting for Tuesday. Tearing off the legs of crickets and scaring the crap out of it is going to do nothing. Take a deep breath and let the chameleon settle so it will eat when you get it.

I would like to think of myself as a reputable breeder and would if asked sell a chameleon smaller than normal. I would make sure that I provided a list of what it was eating. I think that was done.

The worst thing that could happen to that poor chameleon right now would be for you to loose you head and worry about shipping it back. Then it has to wait to eat another day. Let it settle in and don't stress it out by trying to feed it stuff it will not eat anyway. If you find some small bugs put them in a shallow cut where there is a branch above it.

Not sure where you are didn't look but put out some fruit it may attract fruit flies and other flies.
 
I have since learned that tidbit.. as in, AFTER this one arrived (by speaking with experienced owners who actually care about their pets). It's my fault. I should have know in advance that some sellers don't really care about their pets and want to flip them for profit regardless if it's in their pets best interest. Lesson learned, peeps.

There are some people that go by age over size. And six weeks is a good time to start shipping many different baby lizards. Are you saying because these Chams are only 2 inches that they are not 6 weeks old?
 
You did ask for a smaller cham and they can vary in size quite a bit even in the same clutch. The chameleon will probably not starve to death waiting for Tuesday. Tearing off the legs of crickets and scaring the crap out of it is going to do nothing. Take a deep breath and let the chameleon settle so it will eat when you get it.

I would like to think of myself as a reputable breeder and would if asked sell a chameleon smaller than normal. I would make sure that I provided a list of what it was eating. I think that was done.

The worst thing that could happen to that poor chameleon right now would be for you to loose you head and worry about shipping it back. Then it has to wait to eat another day. Let it settle in and don't stress it out by trying to feed it stuff it will not eat anyway. If you find some small bugs put them in a shallow cut where there is a branch above it.

Not sure where you are didn't look but put out some fruit it may attract fruit flies and other flies.

:iagree: 100%! It actually happens quite a bit, maybe not always the best idea.....but regardless it happens.
 
You did ask for a smaller cham and they can vary in size quite a bit even in the same clutch. The chameleon will probably not starve to death waiting for Tuesday. Tearing off the legs of crickets and scaring the crap out of it is going to do nothing. Take a deep breath and let the chameleon settle so it will eat when you get it.

I would like to think of myself as a reputable breeder and would if asked sell a chameleon smaller than normal. I would make sure that I provided a list of what it was eating. I think that was done.

The worst thing that could happen to that poor chameleon right now would be for you to loose you head and worry about shipping it back. Then it has to wait to eat another day. Let it settle in and don't stress it out by trying to feed it stuff it will not eat anyway. If you find some small bugs put them in a shallow cut where there is a branch above it.

Not sure where you are didn't look but put out some fruit it may attract fruit flies and other flies.

I have fruit sitting out right now. Will try to find some termites in the am. I bought a 10 gal aquarium that I have set up for her per the sellers recommendation in that she might find her food easier but I don't want to ad add'l stress by swapping cages if it's not necessary. She's currently in a 16x18x20 (i think that's the dimensions.. it's screameleons smallest cham setup). What are your thoughts on the appropriate size setup for her based on her size? Thanks for your HELPFUL reply and no, I wouldn't ship her back at this point because I feel responsible for her care and certainly don't see that being in her best interest at all.
 
I have fruit sitting out right now. Will try to find some termites in the am. I bought a 10 gal aquarium that I have set up for her per the sellers recommendation in that she might find her food easier but I don't want to ad add'l stress by swapping cages if it's not necessary. She's currently in a 16x18x20 (i think that's the dimensions.. it's screameleons smallest cham setup). What are your thoughts on the appropriate size setup for her based on her size? Thanks for your HELPFUL reply and no, I wouldn't ship her back at this point because I feel responsible for her care and certainly don't see that being in her best interest at all.

I will send you a pm so it doesn't take this discussion off subject.
 
There are some people that go by age over size. And six weeks is a good time to start shipping many different baby lizards. Are you saying because these Chams are only 2 inches that they are not 6 weeks old?

No, I'm saying a cham under 3-4 inches shouldn't be sold. Don't know about other reptiles/animals, but for chams 1.5 inches is too small.
 
So you are also of the mindset the seller isn't the least bit responsible for selling her animals far before they are ready to leave the nest? It's all on the buyer who NEVER claimed to have experience with x week old neonates? I see. No, you've been quite helpful. Thanks.
before they are ready to leave the nest? Will the mama chameleon bring baby insects to the nest? I never knew that.

True you never claimed to have experience. But YOU asked for smaller than two inches. Next time be more specific. Ask for 1.95 inches.....

YOU asked for it...... You got it...... and now YOU are complaining. Then you say you only complained because the seller accused you of not feeding the thing. Well, technically you are not.

I know the seller will take responsibility for selling something to someone that the someone specifically asked for but did not know how to take care of.

Take responsibility for your actions
 
before they are ready to leave the nest? Will the mama chameleon bring baby insects to the nest? I never knew that.

True you never claimed to have experience. But YOU asked for smaller than two inches. Next time be more specific. Ask for 1.95 inches.....

YOU asked for it...... You got it...... and now YOU are complaining. Then you say you only complained because the seller accused you of not feeding the thing. Well, technically you are not.

I know the seller will take responsibility for selling something to someone that the someone specifically asked for but did not know how to take care of.

Take responsibility for your actions


FOR THE LAST TIME I DIDN'T ASK FOR UNDER 2 INCHES! That's what I thought her smallest WAS! Whatever, the seller accused me not feeding her as if I was purposefully starving her. THAT was the intent. AND IT WAS COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE AND OUT OF LINE. I"ve already taken responsibility for my actions. And I know never to purchase from small independents again.
 
So you asked the seller for a smaller chameleon, knowing she had some available around 2 inches, did not specify that you wanted one at least 2 inches, and are now blaming the seller for sending you a chameleon that is AROUND 2 inches, on the smaller side, as you specified? Just wanted to make sure I have that part correct.

Then you are accusing the seller of selling you an animal that is only half the age she told you it is when she is the one that hatched it? Did you fail to take into account that not all animals grow at the same rate?? I have a 2008 female ball python that is 1000 grams and a 2010 that is 1100 grams. Hell, I was 14 years old when I outgrew my 18 year old brother!

You have read on other chameleon forums that most reputable dealers won't sell there chameleons until they hit 3 inches(or so you say), yet you were specifically looking for a chameleon around 2 inches on the smaller side??? So now by using what you have read on other forums to strengthen your case that Tina is an unethical seller, you are telling everyone that YOU were looking to buy from an unethical seller.

You were told exactly what the chameleon was eating BEFORE it was in your possession, yet you failed to have food at the ready for its arrival. Then because of unexpected expenses of having to special order the appropriate food items, which you should have found BEFORE the chameloen was in your possession, you expect the seller to buy the food for you? I breed all the food items for my snakes, and once in a while, I unexpectedly need to go out and buy rats at $3-5 a piece because I run low, but I never expect anyone to foot that bill for me.

And you're not a complainer??? As someone who has worked in the hospitality/customer service business for quite sometime, I can tell you that there are instances in which the customer is definitely in the wrong. This is one of those instances.
 
FOR THE LAST TIME I DIDN'T ASK FOR UNDER 2 INCHES! That's what I thought her smallest WAS! Whatever, the seller accused me not feeding her as if I was purposefully starving her. THAT was the intent. AND IT WAS COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE AND OUT OF LINE. I"ve already taken responsibility for my actions. And I know never to purchase from small independents again.

1. The accusations were correct, right?

2. Good luck with that :thumbsup:
 
I understand your concerns as to the 'industry standard' on size to sell, we all have our own opinion of standards. HOWEVER, it isn't that the animal was unhealthy or not-feeding or 'ready to leave the nest'... it was only that you couldn't find the correct size food for the size you received right? So the size really isn't an issue since it was feeding, healthy, and ready to go in that sense... except that you 'misunderstood' her statement "around 2 inches" and expected it to be bigger; therefore not preemptively acquiring food prior to her arrival. If it were me (and I was concerned about size) I would have asked for a particular size baby and not used an ambiguous statement like "a smaller female". I also would have made a point to ask exactly what size food I'd need and be sure to have it the day (or two) prior to the animals arrival. If you'd checked for food locally the day prior, you would have known it was not a possibility, and would've been able to get bugs overnighted to arrive the same day she did. Not to berate you with the above statements, but maybe they are something to consider later... it's always good to be prepared in advance to getting an animal.

As for expecting them to send food, I don't think that is their responsibility either, they are responsible only for telling you what they need and from there, if you purchase the animal... they assume you checked for and have those things. For example, I know that I switch my baby snakes to prekilled usually before selling, it is easier for some folks to acquire since some stores only carry frozen rodents. However, if I sell a baby that is only eating live pinkies, I tell them they are live pinky eaters, but I don't expect to have to ship them live pinks to feed the snake after it arrives... if you catch my drift. Perhaps the seller could have had better word choice in their frustration with your arguement over food (I would have been frustrated as well, because I don't necessarily agree with your arguement and you are very steadfast in your opinions), but I wouldn't have held them responsible for me not being able to find the proper food locally... since I would have double checked earlier knowing such a small animal (around 2 inches) would be fragile and need to eat regularly.

I think the only thing the seller is guilty of doing (since they were upfront the whole time about size, age, and food type) is just poor word choice after you vented on them, the rest is a learning experience on your part. I don't think they are wrong for selling small animals they felt were ready to be sold, but I do think it is wise for folks who are less experienced with that age and size to know their limits or whether it be acquiring food for them or in experience.

Good luck with your critters, I hope she makes it!
 
except that you 'misunderstood' her statement "around 2 inches" and expected it to be bigger

To prevent confusion, by this I meant you misunderstood "around 2 inches" and expected it to be bigger than it was when it arrived at 1.5in, which was still technically "around 2 inches" which I assume was the average size of the babies they had.
 
ok, i don't usually do this but after everything i have read and after my husband told me to back off i have to say, in YOUR E-MAILS the seller told YOU what THEY FED THE FEMALE BEFORE SHE WAS SOLD TO YOU. how are they supposed to know that YOU don't have the food for the female unless YOU told them so? now you want THEM to cover YOU because YOU DON'T HAVE THE FOOD to cover the female they sent YOU THAT YOU ASKED FOR?

in my years i have cared for and bred chams and if it were up to me i wouldn't have sold to you unless i had ONLY a LIVE ARRIVE guarantee, nothing more.

above all YOU asked for a SMALL FEMALE. you got a small female but YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE FOOD FOR A SMALL FEMALE. (sorry for the caps) you read that they were selling at 2 inches and YOU ASKED FOR SMALL, given what was presented YOU ASSUMED smaller than 2 inches. again this is from the E-MAILS YOU PROVIDED. there fore if you ask for something smaller then YOU should have food for something smaller.

quite frankly given your assumptions i would never sell to you.
 
To the best of my knowledge Petsmart has never stocked fruit fly cultures. Petco does usually stock them. Here is a phone number for one in Sumpter: 803 905 3211. I'm sure if you call them they can tell you if they have any in or if another Petco in the area has them.

As far as the seller I do not see how they did anything wrong. It is your responsibility to obtain food for animals you purchase. You where aware that you needed fruit fly cultures ahead of time and opted not to find a reliable source close to you or to order them online. Also, I have raised plenty of pinhead (1/8") crickets to adult size without issue. I personally think you owe the sellers an apology for starting this thread as they did no wrong.
 
Frankly, I wouldn't buy from the seller nor sell to the buyer.

No one who knows anything about chams asks for the "smaller" baby. Anyone who wants to keep/raise chams could have (should have) done just the barest research & learned that size is everything when buying babies and even 2 inches STV is questionable. Where chams are concerned, age is less important than size when selling or purchasing a baby.

The seller presumeably knows all this and has the right to question a buyer as to why they want a smaller animal, IMO, citing health risks & concerns & questioning husbandry practices.
(IMO, 100 degrees might be too hot a basking temp in a glass tank for a baby that small - it could easily dehydrate really quickly and fry)

The seller also has the right, keeping the interests of the animal and his/her reputation in mind, to 1) refuse a sale based on ethics/health concerns or 2) offer to hold a purchased animal until such time the seller deems it less risky.

All this ain't rocket science ... more like a little common sense and concern for the poor little animal. Keep practicing.
 
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