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Shipping Questions....  UPS/USPS/

R

rpandht

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Hi everyone, I'm not really sure if this is the right place to post a question regarding shipping but this is the Board of "Inquiry" and I really need some vital info.

I tried to ship today via UPS from a Box IT...  The package was labeled "Live Harmless Geckos" and was turned down by the store manager after talking to UPS.  They said they did not ship live animals.  I thought it was ok to ship harmless reptiles via UPS, not sure about snakes, but there where just leopard geckos.

Also is it legal to ship geckos via USPS? Or is there a new provision making it illegal?

If no one will ship out animals how is the industry going to function?  

I normally ship USPS... but they couldn't guarantee overnight delivery to this particular location and that is why I went to Box It.

Thanks to all who help me out here... I'm really quite worried.

-Holland Theis
 
It's not the right place (go to discussions). To answer your question, i ship ups all the time. No i don't mark my box live harmless animals. I mark fragile handle with care. The drivers know and don't mind and often ask to see the herp inside and other questions about them. As for usps they change all the time regarding what they ship and aren't that reliable anyway (my opinion) so i no longer use them. I used to ship airborne but due to cost i no longer use. I would recieve and ship packages via airborne and mark the boxes live harmless reptile and have never had problems.. Some say it's wrong or illegal but our choices are limited and i never was told anything so you have to decide your shipper of choice and how to label package.  Many well known breeders do the same so do what you feel works for you...
 
Shipping via UPS is legal if you have an approved account with them to ship reptiles but not Snakes. I ship approx. 10-20 boxes a week all marked "live Harmless Reptiles" "keep cool" "fragile" without any problems.  Also you have to drop them off at the UPS counter. Any of the u shipit type establishments no matter if you have an account will ship live anything via them.
USPS ships reptiles except snakes if ok but now they are no longer able to guarantee next day service with live animals to any location.  Most of the locations wtill make it next day but they can't guarantee it any longer. They had to reimburse me about $1000 in shipping cost when they could not make it next day like guaranteed.
 
As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong) labeling "live reptile", but not specifying the species is a violation of the Lacey (sp?) Act. Having said this I know that Airborne Express ships boxes with just the label "live harmless reptile" on it. I have received packages from well known breeders labeled that way. If you are going to use UPS overnight a label like "perishable, avoid extreme temperatures" usually works. Take extra precautions with the packaging to avoid "accidents".

Regards,
 
Such labeling is not a violation of the Lacy Act.

This law only governs the commerce of wildlife which was bought/sold/trasnsported in violation of U.S., state, foriegn, or Indian law.
Unless the species in question is illegal to transport in the first place, the Lacy Act does not apply.
It does cover all species protected by CITES, but again the movement of the animal must be in violation of the law to begin with.
It doesn't matter what type of law was violated, the animal could have been illegally collected, illegally imported, or moved out of a state where it is native and illegal to take it accross state lines.

The Act does make it illegal to mislabel wildlife shipments, but not if the transport or sale of the species is not otherwise governed.
For instance, if you were shipping Eastern Indigos out of Florida marked as Eastern Kingsnakes, then that's a Lacy Act violation, but if you were shipping california kingsnakes labeled as Leopard geckos, that is not. It may not be ethical, but it's not a violation of the Lacy Act.

Here's a couple of not overly technical links on the Lacy Act if you would like to read more about it:

http://laws.fws.gov/lawsdigest/lacey.html

http://pacific.fws.gov/news/2000/2000-98.htm
 
Clay,

Thanks for the clarification. What happens if you ship a snake that is protected by CITES, you label the box as live harmless lizard and you are caught while doing that?

Regards,
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Today the Act prohibits the import, export, transport, sale, receipt, acquisition, or purchase of fish, wildlife, or plants in interstate or foreign commerce that were taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of state, tribal, foreign, or U.S. law.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> Here is an easy way to clarify the transportation part of the lacy act.  The American Alligator (Alligator Mississippiensis) is a protected species. It is legal to sell, purchase, and own with the proper license in the state of Florida.  If I ship one to a state where they are legal it is not a violation of the lacy act. If I ship one to a state where they are illegal to own, I have just violated the lacy act and am subject to all fines and imprisonment.  As long as the animal shipped is not endangered and classified under the ESA (endangered species act) and illegal in either the shipping state or receiving state then it does not violate the Lacy act even if not labled.
 
While not a violation of the Lacey Act, it is a violation of federal law when the package crosses state borders. In other words, the examples given above, ehile not violations of Lacey, are still illegal.

50CFR14.81 states:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Except as otherwise provided in this subpart, no person may import, export, or transport in interstate commerce any container or package containing any fish or wildlife (including shellfish and fishery products) unless he/she marks each container or package conspicuously on the outside with both the name and address of the shipper and consignee. An accurate and legible list of its contents by species scientific name and the number of each species and whether or not the listed species are venomous must accompany the entire shipment. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

As per 50CFR14.82 (Alternatives and Exemptions to the Marking Requirement), you can meet the species requirement by affixing an invoice, bill of lading, or packing slip to the outside of the box.
 
I always write what's inside (i.e. (1) Elaphe Guttata Guttata) on the underside of the box in dark ink (Does that meet the definition of conspicuous?  I'd argue so in court, I suppose).  However, I was not aware of the requirement to state whether the contents are venomous.  

Thanks for the info!   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
Just clarifying a detail about the Lacey Act and it's application to the correct labeling of wildlife shipments.

   The legal or illegal status of wildlife in interstate transport does not have anything to do with the labeling requirement under the Lacey Act. Correct labeling is required on every wildlife shipment.  From one of the links provided the following statement identifies the labeling requirement:

"The Lacey Act also makes it illegal to mislabel wildlife shipments, bring injurious species into the country, and import live wildlife under inhumane conditions."

 Correct labeling required under the Lacey Act is:

 1) Common Name
 2) Scientific Name
 3) Total number of each type

 The above requirement for any interstate wildlife shipment can be verified by any U.S. Fish and Wildlife field office.


 Additionally, because the overnight shippers such as Fed-Ex, UPS, and Airborne Express have specific requirements about contents labeling, mislabeling begins to infringe on indivdual state statutory transportation regulations that again would be a violation of the Lacey Act in interstate transport.

 So, just make sure every box is labeled correctly. It avoids any Lacey Act problems.  Then it is just whether the overnight carrier will accept the box. But, much better that than this:

"However, the Criminal Fines Improvement Act of 1987 increased the fines under the Lacey Act for misdemeanors to a maximum of $100,000 for individuals and $200,000 for organizations. Maximum fines for felonies were increased to $250,000 for individuals and $500,000 for organizations."


 The complete solution to the shipping question is to become a known / verified shipper with at least 2 major airlines, the best being Delta and Continental.  The way to accomplish this is to open an air cargo shipping account with these two carriers. It will take some time because of the 9/11/2001 implications, but it can be done.  


Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS
 
Both Airborne Express and UPS clearly state that they do not accept live snake shipments. Both companies know live reptiles, snakes included, are being shipped through them (scanning "suspicious" packages is a standard practice after 9/11). What this is telling me is that they don't want to be responsible for the shipment if something happens (e.g. a snake escapes) but they still want your business.

Shipping via air cargo is prohibitive for the average herp enthusiast, charges are approxiamtely $80. A $80 dollar reptile suddenly doubles it's price once it is shipped. Not all the people that start in this hobby are willing to pay that much for shipping.

Recognized breeders (that are verified shippers with airlines) will still benefit in the medium and long term from other honest, smaller scale businesses that use less expensive means of transportation (after all they are among their customers). Thousands of herps (and dollars) are moved per year, generating business for the carriers as well as enthusiasm among new herp fans. They might not buy their first snake from large breeders, but that might be their next step.

In short IMHO we have to look at the big picture. If shipping via AE or UPS was to be completely banned, I believe this might have a negative impact on the sales of those that are verified shippers with airlines. There is room for both.

Best regards,
 
U.S.P.S. doe sit i know for a fact!!!
As does ups they may have thought it was a snake or something.......the post office does not allow snakes to be shipped and the same for turtles.
Hope this helps.
 
I ship almost exclusively thru Airborne Express lately.  I am certain my local manager at the terminal knows exactly what I am shipping, but since I do not insure the packages, and take this burden on my own shoulders, I do not believe he cares a whole lot.  From what the driver says, I believe I am the largest shipper using Airborne in my area.  Of course, if you saw where I am located, that would not be hard to imagine.   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

Quite frankly, if I lost my capability of shipping door to door, my business would drop off so dramatically that it would likely put me out of business.  Most people just do not want the hassles of running out to the airport any hour of the day or night to pick up their animals.  Some people live 3 or more hours away from the nearest airport.  So not only are you tacking in $80 for shipping, you are also adding hours driving to the airport and back.  What does a full tank of gasoline cost these days?  What is your time worth to you?

I think a lot hinges on the local managers of whatever shipper you try to use.  And I have learned that you do NOT take the packages to the terminal.  You have a driver pick them up during his/her regular run.  That way, you bypass a whole bunch of questions.

Am I doing this illegally?  Beats me.  But if it is a crime, please show me the victim and I will apologize.  Is it violating a company policy?  Yes, I believe so, but I don't give a rat's patootie about their policies.  What I am doing harms absolutely no one.  To be quite honest, as long as what I am shipping is not dangerous in the least, it really is not anyone's business, even the shipping company's, what I put in that box.

And to be quite frank about it, if Airborne ever does shut me down and I have no recourse to continue my business, I will pursue legal channels to have them reassess their blatantly prejudicial and damaging policy.  Their regulation has no basis of fact or reasonableness and would truthfully be contributing to the detriment of an entire industry.  Sure all of the carriers would be guilty of the same charge, but a class action suit from everyone in this industry against the smaller of the big three commercial shippers would be the way to go.  And believe me, the other two would be paying attention to this issue, big time.

I think the herp industry is big enough to have some clout with these people.  Of course, whether or not everyone could walk in lock step with everyone else on ANY issue, is another situation entirely.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most people just do not want the hassles of running out to the airport any hour of the day or night to pick up their animals.  Some people live 3 or more hours away from the nearest airport.  So not only are you tacking in $80 for shipping, you are also adding hours driving to the airport and back.  What does a full tank of gasoline cost these days?  What is your time worth to you?
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

A week ago I had an 800 g snake shipped air cargo for a total of $80 (ouch&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>. Everything went great with the shipment, but I drove 130 miles round trip and spent a total of three hours between driving and the picking of the snake at the local airport.

The "cherry on top of the cake" was that due to a mistake, the billing charges came out to be $200 instead of the $80 (triple ouch!&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>! The decision was either paying in full at the counter and claim later, or leave the snake (which was already paid for) at the airport until the misunderstanding was solved. Well, you might guess what my decision was.

Hopefully this is being taken care off as I write this, although so far I have heard nothing about it.

Best regards,
 
This is an update of my previous post. We are both (buyer and seller) stuck (amicably) in who is responsible for what and can't seem to reach an agreement.

If possible I would like this forum to act as mediator, and give us at least 10 opinions on this subject matter. One can be right, the other wrong or then again maybe we are both at fault. Your unbiased opinion will be highly valued.

Here is the story. I recently purchased an 800 g snake (the size/weight matters, we are not talking of a 10 footer here).

The airline in origin quoted the seller $70 for shipping charges (reasonable) and he in turn provided me with that quotation. We closed the deal on that understanding. The money order for the snake was sent and I was supposed to pay for the shipping charges upon arrival.

When the snake was shipped, the airline at the counter in origin charged $200 instead ($199.84 but I'm rounding figures up for sake of simplicity). The snake was shipped anyways and arrived in time.

In order to pick-up the snake at the local airport I had to pay the $200 and claim later.

After e-mailing the seller to inform him I had been overcharged he provided me with a phone number so I could take care of the problem.

After a week of personally tracking the mistake, the airline recalculated costs, and told me shipping charges were $122 and not $70. In this difference there is a $35 dollar charge for insurance purposes included. As a buyer am I supposed to pay for insurance for the snake too?

In short I am only going to be refunded $78 out of the original $200. The seller says that I am responsible for taking care of the $52 difference.

I would appreciate opinions of this forum as we can't come to an agreement by ourselves.

Thanks,
 
Okay
shipping snakes through the carriers is just against company policy.

But what if the snake in question is venomous?
Is it treated the same way?
Is it still just against company policy?
or
Is there a law that states ALL VENOMOUS should be shipped through the airlines?
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(e) The shipper shall individually pack venomous reptiles in
transparent mesh bags closed by tieing the bag opening into a knot and
place those bags in styrofoam primary enclosures which the shipper
shall then place within a wooden primary enclosure. The shipper shall
clearly label both of the primary enclosures with ``VENOMOUS'' or
``POISONOUS,'' including the number of enclosed animals, their common
name, scientific name, and antivenin type required to treat bites by
the species, next to the ``LIVE ANIMAL'' and ``THIS WAY UP'' labels.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Ritchie,

The quote above came from the DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Fish and Wildlife Service 50 CFR Part 14RIN 1018-AD98.

Just imagine going to the Airborne or UPS counter with a box labeled like that. I don't think you'll make it past the front door.

Regards,
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (rpandht @ Sep. 20 2002,21:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I tried to ship today via UPS from a Box IT...  The package was labeled "Live Harmless Geckos" and was turned down by the store manager after talking to UPS.  They said they did not ship live animals.  I thought it was ok to ship harmless reptiles via UPS, not sure about snakes, but there where just leopard geckos.

Also is it legal to ship geckos via USPS? Or is there a new provision making it illegal?

If no one will ship out animals how is the industry going to function?  

I normally ship USPS... but they couldn't guarantee overnight delivery to this particular location and that is why I went to Box It.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I also had the same problem with USPS yesterday. I was to ship some beardies and they told me that it would not get there today so, I did not ship them. I then went to my local Pack & Parcel and asked them if I could ship them UPS from there. He called UPS and they told him they did not ship live animals. It wasn't until I told him and UPS that I receive live animals all the time from UPS that they did some checking and found out that they (UPS) do ship them. I had to fill out a form they faxed to me and I am still waiting for a reply from them. My UPS rep. said she would call me first thing this morning as soon as she heard something.

I was using USPS and quickly lost faith in them when I shipped 5 beardies out and they lost them for 2 days and then yesterday when they couldn't ship them overnight. I am hoping UPS approves me for an account with them. Would make things a whole lot easier. As far as them(USPS) shipping gecko's, they should do it. I have the publication's that the post office gave me regarding reptiles and them (USPS) shipping them.
Here is the info that I received from USPS on shipping them:

Small Cold-Blooded
Animals
3.2
Small, harmless, cold-blooded animals (except snakes and turtles) that do not
require food or water or attention during handling in the mail and that do not create
sanitary problems or obnoxious odors are mailable (e.g., baby alligators and
caimans not more than 20 inches long, bloodworms, earthworms, mealworms,
salamanders, leeches, lizards, snails, and tadpoles).


Packaging
3.10
Any mailing container used for mailable animals must be made of at least
275-pound test, double wall, corrugated, weather-resistant fiberboard (W5c) or
equivalent and must be adequately ventilated. The container must be constructed
to prevent escape of the animals while in the mail and to preclude the container
and its contents from being crushed in normal handling. The outside of the
container must include a return address and a description of the contents. A
container marked “If Undeliverable, Abandon” is not accepted.

I could not find the other document on USPS website that they had given me it is marked 526.6 Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail pg.86 Publication 52.

Hope this helps a little.

Vicki Monserrate
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (The Monserrate's @ Nov. 05 2002,09:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My UPS rep. said she would call me first thing this morning as soon as she heard something.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I was approved today to ship beardies through UPS! And, it was a lot less painful to be approved than I was anticipating. As soon as I got the approval, I got online, scheduled a pick up and packed my box up. The UPS truck came within 20 minutes of the scheduled pick up time and I didn't have to leave the house! I should have done this sooner. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Vicki Monserrate
 
Ok, I have read this whole thread, but going back and forth I got lost.  If my question was already answered I would appreciate it if someone (who knows) would answer it again.
1.  How do you become an "approved" shipper with UPS?
2.  Does this include NON VEN. snakes?

Thanks,
Brian Oakley
 
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