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Sick leo -- realistic expectations?

I didn't get the picta. The breeder quoted being "concerned about me posting something negative" about him later on, and changed his mind about sending me them, promising he'd take them to the vet. I do hope the guy had the decency to get them to the vet. I have seen posts here from him, they are scarce.

I don't even know about going to the White Plains show like I planned with my son again! I mean, how can you be sure anyone sells you an animal that has not been housed in unsanitary conditions just because he is on display in a clean, deli container?

The animals can look frisky and active when in fact they're freaked out and trying to escape the display tank.

My vet confirmed the pinworms came from the breeder, not the bugs I feed her. He said the amount of eggs in her tummy was too high. I have heard that bugs can bring on the same worms but now I think some breeders are laying down the blame on the bugs. Dr. Giddings is an avian and reptile specialist, I think anyone challenging that comment should back it up with a degree as well.

My vet expenses were $85. The special diet she is on now was altogether over $20 including supplements and Pedialyte. The Ensure was almost $6, and I bought Wal-Mart's! But I just don't have the heart to see an animal in misery as I am able to eat and get on with my life. However, I am not so willing to bring on these expenses so often either.

Not to perpetuate the debate, but with so many uncaring breeders and owners around, bring on the laws regulating their sales alright :hot: If they can't responsibly account for the welfare of their animals, take them out of their hands!

And bless the lives of those who give responsible breeding a good name...
 
breeders

Shannan, I agree with you completely... and I remember the transaction you are referring to and the subsequent events. At first, I stuck up for the breeder (basically because she was a 'reputable' breeder) and I was wrong. Very wrong. No responsible, reputable breeder that cares about their geckos or customers would do such a thing. I am so sorry about the outcome...

I used to take in rescues, and was successfully able to rehabilitate many of them, but more times than not wound up broken hearted to lose them after so much energy and money went in to trying to save them. We must consider that by taking on that responsibility, or buying a skinny gecko from a pet store, we are actually condoning and perpetuating the propagation and sale of sick animals!

In regard to nematodes (worms) and other pathogens being passed on from crickets or other feeders, it is a reality and often difficult to avoid. Many of these parasites show no real overt symptoms until the infection is way out of hand. I have had tests performed at IDEXX Labs on crickets taken directly out of the box from the supplier, and the pathology report was 2 pages long listing all the parasite oocysts and bacterium!!! Of course, these infections are only exacerbated by poor husbandry on the part of the reptile breeder/keeper.

The most important things I have learned over the years, is that scrutinous quarantine, fastidious husbandry, and routine fecal examinations are critical... especially with newly acquired reptiles. This, as well as dealing with a breeder/supplier that has a proven track record, can save a lot of suffering for the keeper and the gecko!
 
Marcia, I agree. Nobody I know who has dealt with parasites quarantines for less than the recommended 90 days. Yet it seems like a lot of people slack on the procedure because they don't realize they might already have parasites going around their colony. Just because they don't get their animals tested to confirm a problem doesn't mean they don't have a problem.

Wanda, invertebrates are very capable of carrying nematodes. Tarantula hobbyists have to deal with them, but unfortunately, there's no treatment for them. Many worms are zoonotic, which means they are not species-specific and can jump indiscriminantly between hosts. Whether or not they are able to finish out their life cycle and reproduce depends on where they end up.

Shannan, yes, feeder insects can carry parasites. A lot of parasite have evolved indirect life cycles, which means they have to work their way up the food chain by infecting various hosts before advancing to their adult stage.
 
Oh I know bugs carry parasites! Heck WE carry parasites as humans, for gawd's sake. ALL living things host a thing or another.

But in particular, my leo's pinworm infestation did NOT come through bug or cricket feeders. It was so massive, the vet concluded it came from the breeder's unsanitary conditions. He even mentioned the breeder must have kept my leo along in an overcrowded tank. Come to think about it, I handpicked her out of a tray with numerous babies.

Anyone claiming the vet could be wrong may contact him directly and debate his theory. But it is interesting to note that all my lizards ate the same bugs and crickets, housed and fed in the same bowls, and only this one leo has to be treated for a life threatening, massive pinworm infestation. Good thing I keep all my animals in separate tanks, although they're all girls!

As far as I am concerned, Dr. Giddings is the one who went to vet school and took the extra courses to become a specialist ;)
And yes, all things considered makes sense that the feeders did not make one leo out of four sick.
 
bugs...

Wanda, if you only had the little gecko for a short time and the parasite load was that big, there is little doubt it was infected when you got it. Babies kept in huge groups in the deplorable squaller I have seen in a few 'gecko mills' and chain pet stores only fosters the direct lifecycle most of these infestations. It's a viscious circle...

- a parasite infected cricket gets eaten by a baby gecko
- the parasites flourish and grow in the gut of the baby gecko
- the infected baby gecko poops
- the other crickets in the tank eat the gecko's poop
- other baby geckos eat the crickets that ate the poop
- the original infected baby drinks water out of a common bowl
- the parasite oocysts are now in the water
- now all the baby geckos drink the water
- all the baby geckos now poop
- yada, yada, yada...

All of that combined with overcrowded conditons cause stress on the baby geckos, which lowers their immune systems and allows the parasites to grow to even more uncontrollable levels. It's so sad... especially when there is no reason for it at all.
 
humpbacks1962 said:
But in particular, my leo's pinworm infestation did NOT come through bug or cricket feeders. It was so massive, the vet concluded it came from the breeder's unsanitary conditions.
Click to expand...

I wasn't implying that your leo got the pinworms while under your care. The reason why your vet said it came from the breeder is because your leo wouldn't have developed a heavy load in the short amount of time that you had her. That's pretty easy to deduce just by understanding the amount of time it takes for the larvae to sexually mature. :rolleyes: Poor husbandry would contribute to the problem, but I wouldn't rule out that she contracted the worms from feeder insects while under the care of the breeder, which you seem to be doing when you say:

I have heard that bugs can bring on the same worms but now I think some breeders are laying down the blame on the bugs.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Guys-Thanks you so much for your replies. I am having another fecal exam done -I'm bringing the samples into the vet today.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed...... Sandy
 
As always, Marcia, you have spoken wisdom...

Sandy, I am glad you are bringing the samples in today. Not only to keep your lizards healthy but to prevent diseases in your family! Good luck.

And do use Marcia's recipe in the meantime. It is miraculous. My girl made a more solid poopi last night, injust three days on that diet! I started adding the vanilla Ensure to the mix, but no mealworms yet. She really loves that flavor!

As far as I am concerned, no more lizards from show breeders in this house! They should stand my grilling and interrogation, and body language test:hehe::hehe:

Oh boy, I am woman, hear me roar:angry:
 
breeders

As far as I am concerned, no more lizards from show breeders in this house! They should stand my grilling and interrogation, and body language test
Click to expand...
Wanda, don't rule out breeders at shows... I vend at several shows a year! LOL! I get interrogated and scrutinized often by potential buyers, and this is actually a good thing. It tells me that they care enough about the geckos to drill me! These are the kinds of buyers I want my geckos to go home with.
 
Whoa Wanda Whoa!!!

Humpback, your lumping all breeders into one catagory! Just because you had a bad experiance with one breeder, doesn't mean that all breeders are bad! And many of those breeders show there reptiles at shows! Shows are just an avenue to sell your "wares" to a wide varity of different people, It's also a place that "Breeders" can meet with other people who have the same interests as they do.

So before you ROAR...take a chill-pill and think about what you are saying!

There are alot of great, caring & interesting people that visit here regularly, and most of them are breeders & I would bet alot of them sell at shows.
 
Oh give me my space... Let me dream on about what happens to those breeders when they sit after dealing with pinworm infestations all day! :bleep::bleep:

And don't tell a woman what to do before she roars, dear:duck01:
 
Overtiny, don't you lose sleep over me. I can take care of myself... Let one of those irresponsible breeders housing animals in unsanitary conditions to save a buck hear me roar, and we'll see whose dreams turns into nightmares alright:blowup:
 
BTW, may I add a suggestion to that recipe, based on my observations so far? If your gecko is sensitive to the lactose content of Ensure, try soy-based baby formula. Even the regular infant formula is purposely made easy to digest!
 
I have a male gecko that hasn't eaten for 2 weeks, but he's not losing weight (stays 88g), should I start feeding him the slurry? I think he's not eating due to the weather change plus I did a major cleaning of his tank and I changed his tile substrate too.
 
The Ensure seemed to be a little hard on her tummy. Maybe because her infestation was more severe then, but with infant formula she seems to be OK. I had to hold off on the canned food as well, for a while. The vet told me he was not surprised by her reaction, given the magnitude of the infection. He told me to keep handfeeding her until all the medication is administered, by Friday. I still leave a cricket in to see if it tickles her fancy.

The poor thing... I was so sure she was going to get better and then other days I was sure I'd wake up to find her dead. She is getting ready to shed now, on top of all this.

And one of her eyes looked crusty this morning, she could see nothing through it. I used very watered down Betadine on a cotton ball, then rinsed it. Seems like a freaking new challenge on this poor thing. This week I started disinfecting all tanks with the "Sani-Cloth" used in hospitals. Each time my animals pooped, I changed the paper towel. Today I disinfected them all with bleach. And still, my leo could not open one eye. Maybe the cricket hurt her eye...?

We have bonded alright. She walks to me when she sees me and lets me handle her without squiggling away, except for when her tummy is full...
 
Update: She completed her shedding but regurgitated the skin:bawling:
The only thing she holds down is Marcia's formula. She still can't hold anything solid in her stomach. That slurry is the only thing keeping her alive.
Let's see how she does by the end of her medication period...
 
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