SnakeSnare.com - Self Explanitory

[ms_terese]

And before this gets even more out of hand:

Ian, it seems we were typing at the same time.

I understand that you are not personally involved in the useless killing of snakes, and that you see that the SnakeSnare may have some valid uses.

Here's my argument: the seller of the product is marketing it as a tool to kill unwanted snakes for inane reasons. (He lists some of the inane reasons on his website, which I won't bother to copy and paste again.)

Most people who find that a wrong thing to do would not support the business. Those who are truly offended by it would likely do what some snake lovers here are doing: blasting the man with emails explaining why his product and the marketing of it are so offensive.

That doesn't make anyone here uneducated, ignorant, or a redneck.

 

[Rockford]

First off, a similar design is already in use by many people. So maybe a little ducation on the subject is in order here.
And it is NOT a trap. This is in no way a trap! Come on people, brighten up a little. It is similar to most snare poles used by animal control. I have used it many times to move rattlesnakes when I have not had a hook available for whatever reasons. It caused absolutely no harm to the rattlesnakes, and all were relocated sucessfully.

For those that piss a fit about a snake dying, do you care about deer or elk dying? I would assume that most of us here hunt in some way, and some people hunt rattlesnakes. Is it right? In some cases, yes. I don't believe in the mass killing of roundups, but I also feel people have the right to kill a rattlesnake if they feel the need.
I can't believe that you have the nerve to call me a redneck, when most of you are the most arrogant, uninformed people I have ever had to meet.

Ian van Natter

Wow! Ian- I have no problem with Elk or Deer being hunted for meat or sport to control the herds. What kind of need would there be for killing a rattlesnake? Maybe if you were starving in the desert and had nothing else to eat. Have you ever eaten rattlesnake? I haven't had the need to but there really isn't a whole lot of meat to them.

I believe that most folks here wouldn't have a problem with the snake snare if it was marketed for the reasons that you are pointing out. However it was not. That's real sweet that you are defending your buddy but there are other designs to steal from and make money when it comes to animal control. This one was described as being particularly harmful to a snakes life. I am not sure if you are aware that this is a herp forum that you are posting on but it is. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah......Tired of typing common sense. It doesn't work when people just don't get it. Oh...Not all of us send threatening e-mails either.

Have fun with your six(6) snakesnares. Keeping them yourself or are they Christmas gifts for all your friends and family? Starting your own Utah Rattlesnake Roundup? Yee-Haw!!!


Happy Holidays!!

Bthacker

 

[IanV]

Terese, I dont believe in people decapitating any animal for no reason. If someone was actually going to eat that cat, and it was there cat-more power to them. I also posted that I do not lump every poster in with the ones sending threats, and I want to make sure that everyone realizes that. I am sure 99% of the people here are good people with differing opinions.
I have been working with John to get this product changed for quite some time now. The prototype he sent me was the exact same as the midwest snare. The exact same. No thin wires. In fact, compared to the midwest snare, the snake snare has a THICKER rubber coated wire.

Suncoast, you obviously did not look at the product closely. I have 4 here that I can look at any time. There is no thick wire, and no way for it to actually decapitate a snake the way it is currently made.
At one time, this was being marketed to skin hunters and people in the roundups. But now it is bein redesigned as herp. tool that is designed not to hurt snakes. The Midwest design is the exact same as the SnakeSnare, spin it anyway YOU want, they are the same.

Ian

 

[Rockford]

Ian-

Since it's being re-marketed as a herp tool. Who is going to buy from your buddy in the herp community after his website was selling it as a snake killing device? Selling it to folks who frequent round-ups? Come on get real!!!! Do you think we are stupid? Quit the nonsense and the contraditions.

Bthacker

 

[IanV]

Breck
You say I am the ignorant one here? Thats a little like the pot calling the kettle black. As for my 6 snake snares, I currently have 4 and gave two to local wildlife officers to use that they promised NOT to kill the snakes.
John and I have never met. He lives thousands of miles away from me, next door to my cousin. Thats how we know each other. We have sent emails back and forth a few times, but other than that I do not know him from Adam. I also have eated rattlesnake before, 2 times to be exact. One was a scout camp back when i was about 14, and the other was at a Brazilian restaurant. Chewy and full of little bones, I don't know why you would want to eat it but some people also eat snails.
It's funny that I am the one called the red-neck in this case when it was people like you that cannot see beyond your little window. While I agree with you believe it or not, I also think that people have every right to kill a snake if they deem it necessary. Make all the moral judgements against it you like, but please refrain from calling me a redneck when you know nothing about me.

I am not sure if you are aware that this is a herp forum that you are posting on but it is

Wow....that must be what I am doing wrong. Obviously I know nothing about snakes. Get a grip on reality. People don't share your viewpoint, get over it.

 

[IanV]

Ian-

Since it's being re-marketed as a herp tool. Who is going to buy from your buddy in the herp community after his website was selling it as a snake killing device? Selling it to folks who frequent round-ups? Come on get real!!!! Do you think we are stupid? Quit the nonsense and the contraditions.

Bthacker

Actually, quite a few people have bought them instead of the midwest snare. Hell, to save 40-60 bucks, who wouldn't. Do I think you are stupid, why yes I think you do fit in that category. You know nothing about the product, just a few lines from a website that was out of date when you read it in the first place. I think you are the one spilling the nonsence. I am trying to educate people, you are too busy labeling others and implying your moral judgement where it is not needed.

 

[IanV]

Dang it, now I feel bad for calling you stupid and a redneck.
How do I go back and edit my posts? I can't figure it out?

I do however think most of you are seeing only one side of the fence, but that is neither a crime or a reason for name calling on either side.

As for the Missouri comment earlier, I had quite a few relatives ran out of the state and some even killed just for joining a certain religion, so I can't believe they are the most level-headed state (It's a joke....I plan on heading out that way for Med. School in a few years anway)

 

[Rockford]

Breck
You say I am the ignorant one here? Thats a little like the pot calling the kettle black. As for my 6 snake snares, I currently have 4 and gave two to local wildlife officers to use that they promised NOT to kill the snakes.
John and I have never met. He lives thousands of miles away from me, next door to my cousin. Thats how we know each other. We have sent emails back and forth a few times, but other than that I do not know him from Adam. I also have eated rattlesnake before, 2 times to be exact. One was a scout camp back when i was about 14, and the other was at a Brazilian restaurant. Chewy and full of little bones, I don't know why you would want to eat it but some people also eat snails.
It's funny that I am the one called the red-neck in this case when it was people like you that cannot see beyond your little window. While I agree with you believe it or not, I also think that people have every right to kill a snake if they deem it necessary. Make all the moral judgements against it you like, but please refrain from calling me a redneck when you know nothing about me.

Wow....that must be what I am doing wrong. Obviously I know nothing about snakes. Get a grip on reality. People don't share your viewpoint, get over it.

Hey Pal-

I never called you a redneck for one. Whether or not you are a redneck that is your business. READ MY POSTS!

I have a feeling alot more folks share my viewpoints than your very little thought out points of an attempt at selling your buddy's ill-marketed product. Please feel free to read through the thread again. It might help a little.

One more thing....Why is your buddy's website down? Snake's hibernating? If I was a smart business man I would think Christmas would be a great time of the year for sales?

WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!

Bthacker

 

[Rockford]

Ian-

Calling me stupid and a redneck? I will forgive you on that one. I don't take any offense only because I know who I am.

All I am doing is saying my peace. That is my right as an American and I am sharing my viewpoints without calling people names. Please read your posts. You make many contradictions that i don't feel like quoting and pointing out. Look at your buddy's website. If he ever get's it back up and you will see what I am so passionate about how I feel. There is no need for killing snakes. This tool was marketed as such. Plain and simple.

Please refrain from calling me a stupid redneck again.

Thanks-

Bthacker

 

[IanV]

You keep refering to him as if we are best friends. I also have never once made an attempt to sell the product.
I do however point out where you are wrong. In fact, I have been talking to John who is currently changing the website since he has "seen the light" if you wish to say. He took the website down because someone from this thread is contacting him with threads, and hacking his site.
Christmas would be the time to sales, but even I would not recommend he sell the product as it is. It does need some more work to make it safer. I do not like the thick rubber coated wire, and I have suggested putting some sort of a wider peice of metal or something, to help avoid rib injuries.
I also apologized for coming off as a jackass, and I hope you will accept it. If not, that is your problem and not mine.
As for the opinion, I have a feeling we are closer to 50/50 on the subject. I have received both the death threat emails, and the emails from people who dont want to get involved but have no problem killing snakes (again, I do not share that viewpoint. I do not kill anything for any reason. In fact, I am the only one around here nice enough to use Hav a hart traps to catch coons, skunks and cats that get in and kill our birds. Most shoot them or poison them with antifreeze).
I understand you are passionate about herps. I am as well, though we come from different "Herp Schools". I have literally been around and kept herps my entire 23 short years. I also have a job in which I deal with professional herpetologists and hobbyists like you and I on a daily basis.
You say there is no reason to kill a snake, and I agree. But as an American, I can recognize that some people have those views and though I feel they are wrong, they can kill them if they feel the need. Thats where education comes into play. Poeple around here know I will come and get anything they need taken care of, but how many people have that available? My grandfather was a great guy, but would kill any rattlesnake on our ranch because they killed the occasional cow. Was he wrong for doing so? I don't think so, but they also didn't have people that would remove them back then. I actually know a few people who enjoy rattlesnake as well, and so if they want to go kill one for them to cook and eat, then they are welcome to do so if they so believe.
While I do not believe in it, I do not feel that it is the worst thing to happen as long as it is within all the boundaries of the law. If it is an endangered species, then of course fry them. I would rather see the snake removed peacefully, but I do not think we will ever get to the point that some people will not be deathly afraid of snakes and want them off their property alive or dead.

Ian

 

[reptilebreeder]

Vince

I personally forwarded a link to his website to PETA, the SPCA and the Humane Society the day this thread was started. Wouldn't it be a coup to get those three to work in the industy's favor for once?.

NO.You think they would stop there? all 3 of those groups are against keeping of any reptiles WHATSOEVER.
I can understand everyone being a little heated (if not hypocritical ie. Hunting deer for sport-ok, Rattlesnakes-not). but, anybody ever heard of the saying "be careful what you wish for"? PETA is the LAST, I repeat LAST organization "we" need to go to when "we" have a problem. We should solve our problems, in house, and by trying to educate as many people as we can. The fact that they may go after the website, does not erase or even begin to nullify even one little iota, the fact that they are the worst threat to us, and anybody who wants to keep ANY animals PERIOD.

Before everybody jumps on me, I abhor Rattlesnake roundups, but, until we can get things changed it is legal. I also have little tolerance for those who kill snakes out of ignorance. I just think this thread is getting a little too heated and we would do better to educate and act civilly, lest we be judged no better than the people who try to keep use from keeping animals.

 

[IanV]

It WAS marketed as such. I have been doing my part on educating, and from what I understand, quite a few other level headed individuals contacted John with the same problems I have had with the product since day one. I am waiting to hear back from John about something he said in an email I would like to post here, which may help clear up some misconceptions.
This device will no longer be for killing snakes, and thanks to those who have sent emails pointing out corrections and misconceptions. I know more people have sent polite emails rather than threatening ones, and that has made the world of difference in this case. Suddenly, it wasn;t just me and some friends pointing out our feelings, it was 100's of well intentioned Herpers who hate to see snakes needlesly die.

 

[IanV]

NO.You think they would stop there? all 3 of those groups are against keeping of any reptiles WHATSOEVER.
I can understand everyone being a little heated (if not hypocritical ie. Hunting deer for sport-ok, Rattlesnakes-not). but, anybody ever heard of the saying "be careful what you wish for"? PETA is the LAST, I repeat LAST organization "we" need to go to when "we" have a problem. We should solve our problems, in house, and by trying to educate as many people as we can. The fact that they may go after the website, does not erase or even begin to nullify even one little iota, the fact that they are the worst threat to us, and anybody who wants to keep ANY animals PERIOD.

Before everybody jumps on me, I abhor Rattlesnake roundups, but, until we can get things changed it is legal. I also have little tolerance for those who kill snakes out of ignorance. I just think this thread is getting a little too heated and we would do better to educate and act civilly, lest we be judged no better than the people who try to keep use from keeping animals.

John, thank you for that well thought our and well written post. You have put across some ideas that I have not been able to, thank you. I also abhor the rattlesnake roundups, but we need to fight this with education rather than trying to join ranks with PeTA or getting so upset over something that we are not able to have a level conversation. It has been amazing to me to see some of the changes that have come across from people who are angry at the idea of killing snakes in ignorance, but who are well spoken and polite enough that they are able to get the point across and actually educated people. This thread so far has not been able to educate anyone (and I am at fault as much as anyone else).

 

[Rockford]

Back peddling. That's what I call it. Anyone else have a word or phrase for it?Maybe I'm just an ignorant, stupid redneck. You have learned nothing Ian. And you haven't educated anyone on anything. Quit trying to play the nice guy all of a sudden. You are not as smart as you are trying to portray yourself. Sorry but you lose.

Bthacker

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Originally posted by John Kellar

NO.You think they would stop there? all 3 of those groups are against keeping of any reptiles WHATSOEVER.
I can understand everyone being a little heated (if not hypocritical ie. Hunting deer for sport-ok, Rattlesnakes-not). but, anybody ever heard of the saying "be careful what you wish for"? PETA is the LAST, I repeat LAST organization "we" need to go to when "we" have a problem. We should solve our problems, in house, and by trying to educate as many people as we can. The fact that they may go after the website, does not erase or even begin to nullify even one little iota, the fact that they are the worst threat to us, and anybody who wants to keep ANY animals PERIOD.

Before everybody jumps on me, I abhor Rattlesnake roundups, but, until we can get things changed it is legal. I also have little tolerance for those who kill snakes out of ignorance. I just think this thread is getting a little too heated and we would do better to educate and act civilly, lest we be judged no better than the people who try to keep use from keeping animals.

Point taken John but the links were sent anonymously, not with any plea for help to the industry. I normally stay as far away from all three of them as possible but, in this instance, I truly think it was a good idea. While they do not condone the keeping of animals and are a constant thorn in all of our sides, they are far more focused on animal cruelty Especially the SPCA.

 

[Tim Cole]

Catch Pole...

Having been one of the original people to post on this thread I am disapointed to see it digressing as it is.
I have been doing snake calls for most of my life. I was an Animal Control Officer for over 5 years. I was also a State Permitted Reptile Rehabilitator for over 10 years. I have also been training Animal Control Officers and Park Rangers for over 15 years in snake identification and safe capture techniques. Safe for the humans and safe for the snake. I deal with venomous and non-venomous in my State Certified training classes. The officers are issued a Standard Catch Pole to use in a variety of situations. Since this may be the only thing they have to work with I showed them how to use it properly with large snakes only (6ft +)! IT IS NOT FOR CAPTURING BUT TO SAFELY GUIDE IT TO A CONTAINER! You cannot restrain a large snake on this pole. It will crawl through the loop and probably injure itself, choke, or break bones. After I showed the department a pair of tongs and how they worked, they outfitted all of the officers with a pair of tongs after I trained them on the proper use. Even the Midwest site does not mention them for SNAKES!
I am also surprised that no one has mentioned the commercially made snake funnel traps or glueboards. Bill Horn's description of a cardboard box trap is great and works with the same principle as the funnel trap. Glueboards are my last resort but work well without injury if monitered. The board is placed along the baseboard and the snake sticks to it as it is crawling. The trap needs to be checked frequently so the snake can be released from the glue as quickly as possible. This is accomplished by soaking the glueboard in shallow cooking oil. This releases the snake in a matter of a few minutes with minimal harm. Sometimes it might lose a scale or two.
Ian,
I agree that threats are not appropriate, but this site is made up of snake lovers and some of us get passionate over this kind of subject. Don't expect any support from this sites readers for a tool that is made to decapitate a snake! Had the website not promoted this act we probably would not be as upset as we are. The picture you are painting is far different from the website toting the tool. I did see and read the site before it went down.

From an EDUCATED snake enthusiast,

 

[IanV]

Are you saying I am not an educated snake enthusiast, because my views do not align with yours? I guarantee I deal with more professional herpetologists than most here, on a daily basis. Everyone from Animal PLanet hosts, to professors at the local universities. I know a thing or two about herps.
You yourself have used catch poles in the same manner I have. I agree, I think there is too much risk to breaking a rib, but if I am not comfortable with whatever other tool I have, I will use a snakesnare before I let DWR shoot and kill the rattlesnake (Well, they usually just throw a big ass rock on it).
I know you saw the site before it went down, I did as well. I saw it before it was brought up in the thread and I expressed my opinion that it would cause controversey and I could not support it.
Considering I am the ONLY one on this thread who has any correspondence with John, or has even seen a snake snare in real life, maybe some of you should smarten up. This product is not, any longer, designed for killing snakes. It once was, and I did not like it either. It is now being designed to safely remove snakes.
Since everyone here is so intent on condoning something that hasn't been made in the last 8 months, maybe you should do a little field work and actually talk to the company before pissing a fit. The thread started out great and quickly went to hell, and I am as much to blame as anyone else. Had people been more intent on education rather than condoning something they really don't know about, this would have never had caused any problems.
Bthacker, you are welcome to call it whatever you want. Why do I have to backpedal to try to impress you or something? Frankly, I think your opinion is pure crap and you know nothing about this product let alone how the real world works. If me trying to be "nice" is a problem, then you are welcome to leave this thread as much as anyone else. I was just trying to make sure tempers didn't fly, but I guess being that mature is above you.
Next time, maybe you should talk to the person who owns the website before everyone starts pitching fits all of a sudden. Again, I am the ONLY person who has posted here that has any sort of dealing with John, and who has seen the snare in person.

 

[IanV]

Originally posted by John Kellar



Point taken John but the links were sent anonymously, not with any plea for help to the industry. I normally stay as far away from all three of them as possible but, in this instance, I truly think it was a good idea. While they do not condone the keeping of animals and are a constant thorn in all of our sides, they are far more focused on animal cruelty Especially the SPCA.

John, anonymously is better than not I guess. If Peta was just against animal cruelty, most would have no problem with it. But unfortunately they want to take away our pets...
I don't think it was a great idea, but it is better than nothing I guess. I just fear this will add some more to their anti-herpetoculture campaign.
The SPCA however, as far as I know, is till a pretty clean organization and I see no problem in contacting them in this case.
Seeing as killing certain snakes is not against the law in most areas, they do not have a leg to stand on though. Here in Utah however, it is illegal to kill a garter, but you can kill a rattlesnake and no one cares (you also need a 30 dollar permit to keep garters, go figure). It's sad really. If I compare the decapitation to the gasoline though, I would have to say the decapitation is somewhat more humane (though severly messed up). I would love if the roundups were gone, but I dont think it will stop people from killing rattlesnakes in mass numbers.
Ian

 

[IanV]

For the record...

This was my last communication with John tonight. He did not grant me permission to post this yet, but I am sure he will see no problems as long as it helps clear the air

For the record, the two day e-mail flood did
educate me to many corrections to the representation of the SnakeSnare
and the website will be back up in the spring with more accurate and
descriptive content.

I am amazed at the anger of some people, angry that the World isn't
exactly as they want it to be and hostile towards those who don't share
their philosophy.

In all fairness, I did warn against keeping that decapitation thing on the website.
However, many in this thread do not have a working concept of the idea, and in fact, have never seen the product or have any communication with John.
As for the emails, hell if you can help add to the education I wouldn't tell you to stop. The world needs to know that snakes aren't scary (and we need to understand people are going to be scared of snakes and we shouldn't push our ideals on them).

 

[BriarpatchHerps]

Here's how I see it.....ANY changes made to his website or weapon has been for one reason and one reason only, to save his own ass and protect his income. If the man never had a problem killing animals or making a living from selling people weapons to kill animals he still doesn't. Someone doesn't suddenly find humanity, compassion and the intellect to "see the light" because they took a long hard look at their actions - it takes YEARS to become who we are and just as long if not longer to make major changes. One day he supports slaying animals and the next day he doesn't? BS bud, who the hell do you think you're kidding?

Let's brainstorm for a moment shall we? If a noosed pole is such a dandy "tool" for safely controlling serpents then why do so many imported Chondros, Cobras, Pythons and Monitors arrive with neck lacerations, burns, broken vertibra and ribs?? I know of at least a dozen large Retics and Cobras that were advertised in the classifieds as LTC and STILL had a scar around their neck, crooked spine and the Cobras had broken ribs in their hoods that prevented it from fully opening. In every similar injury there's two common factors 1) A noose that supplys enough pressure to crush 2) Some dumbass on the other end yanking on it like he's trying to start a lawnmower.

In your pals case those two factors didn't sell enough SnakeSnares so for the love of money he added a BLADE and proceeded to market the POS as a weapon to KILL.

Mace is a good example of a self defense item, it's small, powerful and carried by postal carriers to keep dogs off them. Until I see a pair of Levis with pockets deep enough to accomidate a 48" long pole that damn thing was never designed for self protection, it was built for one purpose and that's because he knew Jeb and Cleatus would snatch those things up to use at the roundups.

It's only takes the understanding of simple physics to realize grasping a struggling creature with a cord covering no more than a one inch wide area is going to cause damage and be painful. If you're honestly dim enough to believe a noosed pole isn't painful and lethal lie on the floor and have a friend drag your ass around the house with one around your wrist.

And NO, people do NOT have the right to kill something "Because they see fit" to do so, most people can't make a split second decision at the Burger King Drive Thru let alone be given the right to "kill anything they wish".