So....Who is going to screw up first?

[burm_daddy]

thanks Reptile Kings thats what i was looking for sorry but im not trying to read the history of the lacey act

 

[hhmoore]

To put it simply the Lacey Act was the first federal law protecting (all) wildlife (enacted 1900).
Today it's mostly used to prevent the importation or spread of potentially dangerous non-native species.

Mostly, perhaps...
The way Lacey comes into play for most of us, though, is the labeling requirements. Granted, it may default to industry standards; but that means official standards, and it isn't the reptile industry that sets them. This was a bigger problem before FedEx was willing to ship reptiles; but anybody "flying under the radar" by not labeling, or declaring the contents to be something other than living reptiles was in violation of the Lacey Act...and, accordingly, Federal law. Writing that your box contains 5 eastern garter snakes when it contains 5 kingsnakes - same thing.

thats what i was looking for sorry but im not trying to read the history of the lacey act

You don't need to delve deeply into the history, but you SHOULD have a clue what it means if you are shipping animals.

 

[Reptile Kings]

Mostly, perhaps...
The way Lacey comes into play for most of us, though, is the labeling requirements.

Totally agree with you here. I'm very anal about that here with our service. "Perishable" markings (with no mention at all about 'live harmless reptiles') and misrepresenting what's in the box doesn't fly with me well at all.

 

[burm_daddy]

You don't need to delve deeply into the history, but you SHOULD have a clue what it means if you are shipping animals.[/QUOTE]


im not going to get into it with u i know what i can and cant ship and i also check to make sure the state im shipping to allows what im shipping in the state i know now what the lacey act is my grandfather told me about it years ago just not that it was called the lacey act i can remember him telling me how taking star fish and sea snakes from the ocean was against the law and there was a law saying so now i know thats the lacey act and it also says somthing about moving or destroying the california poppy thanks tho im glad i am informed on it now

 

[blackandblue_lulu]

I honestly hope it doesn't happen, for the better of everyone. If we have to follow a law, this would be it.

 

[Fangthane]

It won't be the shipping company that gets in trouble, it will be the people sending and receiving.

I've recently seen someone state the exact opposite. In another thread, I presented someone with a hypothetical scenario where a person's intrastate shipment of a restricted animal ends up going across state lines. The person presented with this scenario - citing 20 years of experience in the shipping industry - claims that FedEx/UPS would be the ones taking the heat for any Lacey Act violations arising from said theoretic shipment, not the private party who actually initiated the shipping. This seems somewhere between counterintuitive and outright foolish to me. Thoughts, anyone?

 

[AbsoluteApril]

I received a shipment, FedEx held it, opened it and had the species identified to determine if it was legal to come into this state (it was legal, they thought it was venomous) and then called me to come pick it up. Something triggered them to realize it was a live animal but the box was not marked. Both myself and the shipper received 'warning' letters about the Lacey Act violation. I'd have to dig out the letter to see where it came from. I was surprised I received anything since it was the shipper's fault for not properly marking the box (he said he forgot). Gave me the impression that we were the ones that would get in trouble/be fined, not FedEx. If I remember, I'll try to find the letter, this was a few years ago.

 

[WebSlave]

If a shipping company took on a substantial legal liability for shipping live animals, do you think they would even accept that small segment of their business? IMHO, they would drop it in a heart beat. If YOU break the law, then YOU could suffer the penalties, not them. They had nothing at all to do with your decision on how or what you shipped.

 

[Fangthane]

If YOU break the law, then YOU could suffer the penalties, not them. They had nothing at all to do with your decision on how or what you shipped.

From the perspective of a layman who isn't blessed with 20 years in the shipping business, that certainly seems like the most logical, sensible and realistic way of assigning blame. This other person's stance on the scenario seemed like just a lame part of a wholly lame set of rationalizations, but it made me curious enough to throw it out for debate in a more appropriate forum, just in case this is one of those situations where the "common sense" approach ends up being the wrong one.

 

[WebSlave]

From the perspective of a layman who isn't blessed with 20 years in the shipping business, that certainly seems like the most logical, sensible and realistic way of assigning blame. This other person's stance on the scenario seemed like just a lame part of a wholly lame set of rationalizations, but it made me curious enough to throw it out for debate in a more appropriate forum, just in case this is one of those situations where the "common sense" approach ends up being the wrong one.

As an attorney once told me "never confuse the law with logic and common sense."

 

[bigjej]

Regarding responsibility for transportation, it is the same as with shipping anything illegal via any carrier. Since the carrier is unaware of the contents, it is the shipper, and usually if the intention was there on the receiver end, then that party too, who is responsible. Just like with shipping drugs, illegal weapons, etc. Fedex doesnt get pressed with charges.


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[snakeman101172]

Lacy Act shipping is a little different. If you are making an Intrastate shipment and your research says this is legal, you have done your diligence. If Fed Ex runs it through some other state that obligation is on them. You as the consumer are not privy to the inner workings or shipping methods or pathways that any shipper uses on any given day. That falls under competitive advantage of the shipper.


There is what I actually said. I will explain in further detail. "Reasonable expectation" protects a consumer in these situations IF there is no evidence to support wrongful intent. This will get a little wordy. I am giving my firsthand knowledge of 7 instances that I am directly involved with that pertain exactly to this issue. I will start with Fed Ex and UPS are two of my larger customers. I run 7 trucks in Florida, 4 in Georgia, and 5 in NY. Here is a basic example for you:

Person A resides in Thomasvile,Georgia (where retics are legal) he calls Fed Ex to have a retic shipped to Atlanta,Ga. The reasonable expectation to person A is that this item would not go through NY for instance. Fed Ex contacts my dispatch and I send a driver to person A. Person A can ask my driver "will you be leaving Georgia with this package" the driver can respond "NO". Now My dispatch receives a critical roll out for the Red Cross in Tallahassee. I reroute the driver to Tallahassee prior to going to Atlanta. Person A is protected via "reasonable expectation". No one including Fed Ex or UPS has control over my trucks nor has access to the lanes that I move through (competitive advantage).
Fed Ex nor any carrier would face any type of penalty for Lacey violations unless it could be proven they were aware(nearly impossible to prove). The individuals involved would only receive a notice of violation(this serves to remove reasonable expectation the next time). It notifies all that no one has control of where your package can possibly be routed to so beware. I can't control if that makes sense to you or not. Just direct experience that I have to draw on.
I have provided statement(not reptile related) in several instances pertaining to a customer not being aware of of my shipping routes or those of any of my partners or customers. In not one of those cases were any of the parties charged with ANY violation of any kind for crossing any state line. I am also not aware of a single instance of an Intrastate shipment of a retic for example that has led to the conviction of any one under the Lacey Act due to shipper covenants. If you receive notice, the next time around I would bet they would prosecute. All of what I just stated becomes moot if it can be proven that you were "directly" informed that your shipment would cross a state border.
On a side note, I have drivers who routinely pick up animal shipments in Florida and Georgia. Most of my vans bounce over the border twice daily. No customer that I pick up from has violated the Lacey Act. I would be the only one to blame in these instances and again any agency citing a violation would have to prove that I knowingly violated the Act. If I have left anything out feel free to ask.

 

[bigjej]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasnt referring to the Gedex oeaxtice of routing intrastate shipping to interstate hubs. I was only referring to the conversation about carrier responsibility.

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[snakeman101172]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasnt referring to the Gedex oeaxtice of routing intrastate shipping to interstate hubs. I was only referring to the conversation about carrier responsibility.

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My response was not intended toward your comments, but Dans comments pertaining to the other thread that we briefly touched on this topic.

 

[Joel Macy]

Know of any burm breeders in Kansas? Looking for albinos. Also, can you get a permit to take them across state lines?

 

[SPJ]

Know of any burm breeders in Kansas? Looking for albinos. Also, can you get a permit to take them across state lines?

There is no way to get a permit. Can't take them across state lines.
Even if your vet is over the state line, you would be breaking the law by bringing it there.