Soaking in Pedialyte a NO NO!

[rosebud945]

I wanted to address the practice of soaking reptiles in pedialyte to treat dehydration because I am dealing with a couple of rescues that might be suffering because of this practice. As a long time rehabber, I am skeptical about the benefit of soaking to relieve dehydration in general. I do soak rescues in water because the warmth does aid in defecating if you have an impacted animal, and I do soak just in case soaking helps the dehydration. However, I am very much against the notion that soaking an animal in pedialyte or Gatorade is a good idea for several reasons.

First, hydration really needs to come from inside. Soaking in water can be tried, but not instead of fluid therapy, either orally through handfeeding or tube feeding, by subcutaneous injections, or by IV. If the keeper or rescuer cannot get fluids down the animal safely by syringe, then the animal needs to be taken in for vet care.

Second, I can see no benefit from soaking in pedialyte because the scales are not as likely to absorb the electrolytes as they are to become clogged and coated with it, and after a few hours, that stuff sours! Then you essentially have a spoiled sugar coated reptile that cannot absorb heat or UVB well, and is at risk of developing scale rot because of a weakened immune system and because its scales are smothered in spoiled sugar solution. Pedialyte is mostly sugar , salt and water, and it goes bad 48 hours after opening IF refrigerated and within hours if not.

I have a baby rescue that was soaked in pedialyte by the very well meaning person who sent it to me, and let me say that I consider this person a very good friend and a very kind soul for sending these babies to me so that I could help them. I have managed to stabilize it, but am now facing scale infection because I suspect that the pedialyte seeped under a few layers of incomplete sheds and spoiled. The baby had a sickening sweet smell and gummy peeling scales in spots all over its body. He is at the vet's office now for a culture and blood work.

If anyone has a good, scientifically based explanation as to why soaking in pedialyte can benefit dehydrated reptiles, please post it. Until I am convinced otherwise, I whole heartedly advise AGAINST this practice!

 

[SPJ]

If they take a drink while soaking, the pedialyte helps the dehydration more than plain water would.

 

[rosebud945]

But why would you risk scale issues for one POSSIBLE sip? I can tell you that that one sip will not make a dint in a truly dehydrated animal. You can get just as they might drink in a bath by syringe and prevent scale issues on top of the issues already present.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

But why would you risk scale issues for one POSSIBLE sip? I can tell you that that one sip will not make a dint in a truly dehydrated animal. You can get just as they might drink in a bath by syringe and prevent scale issues on top of the issues already present.

You realize you can rinse a reptile off after soaking in that stuff right?

 

[P120_Cartman]

I love how he asks for a real science based answer and the responses are well gee you can rinse it off....no duh....there are not facts supporting this theory..

Would you like to take a bath in urine? I hear it helps hydrate you...if you can't tell, that was a joke...

 

[rosebud945]

Well, these were not rinsed, and rinsing would not have gotten it all out from under the sheds, so the risk of scale issues would still have been present. I am afraid that many people would not rinse it off if they thought the pedialyte can be absorbed through the scales.

I just don't see any benefit from a medical standpoint, and am dealing with a BIG negative effect at the moment.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Well, these were not rinsed, and rinsing would not have gotten it all out from under the sheds, so the risk of scale issues would still have been present. I am afraid that many people would not rinse it off if they thought the pedialyte can be absorbed through the scales.

I just don't see any benefit from a medical standpoint, and am dealing with a BIG negative effect at the moment.

Can you post the medical issues this may cause? Are they proven facts?

 

[rosebud945]

I'll let you know what the vet says. Beyond that, I am seeking info here, and operating on common sense. I have never found good solid evidence that soaking in general aides hydration in desert and semi desert reptiles, and I have found NO authoritative source that advocates soaking ANY reptile in pedialyte. I have found hearsay in some reptile forums. If I have missed something, please point it out or post it!

 

[rosebud945]

And I did list the issues that I suspect could be caused by the practice in my first post: poor heat and UVB absorption, and scale infection/rot.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

I have no knowledge of soaking in pedialyte but soaking in water will help hydrate a snake which can absorb moisture through it's vent. Of course, I don't have any 'proof' to post.. :/

 

[rosebud945]

Yes, I have read that some reptiles might be able to absorb some moisture through the cloaca, but again, not enough is absorbed in this way to effectively cure dehydration, and I have found zero evidence that actual electrolyte sugars and salts can be absorbed this way. I am pretty sure those have to be processed through the gastrointestinal tract just like anything else of a solid nature that the animal ingests.

Initial word on the rescue is that the spots in question are suspicious and tests are being run. here are some pics of what I am talking about. This lizard is a chuckwalla from a very arid, hot region of southern California. That is not a climate that supports scale infections, but the dehydration is likely due to the hot, dry conditions.These babies were picked up from the wild, so are newly wild caught. I have good reason to believe that the scale condition occurred after they were picked up and because of the pedialyte soak since these spots were very gummy and the lizard smelled sickening sweet, and that smell was greatly reduced after an antimicrobial shampoo wash.

Day one at my house before treatment. Particularly notice the fuzzy, peeling and discoloration around the tail base and back legs

Day 6, after treatment with an antimicrobial wash. Notice the dark spots. Those are the most worrisome and could be scale rot.

I will let yall know what the tests show.

 

[rosebud945]

Good news! the spots probably were the beginning of scale rot, but the antimicrobial wash nipped it in the bud! I am to continue the bath once or twice a week and watch them for now.

I did not get a chance to speak with my vet on this issue, but I will. But the tech indicated that soaking reptiles in pedialyte is not a good idea. I am also researching a reptile vet who argues vehemently that soaking desert lizards period should be avoided completely. I will post as soon as I find something from him in writing.

 

[rosebud945]

Aha! A voice of authority!

From Randall Grey's caresheet found here
http://www.kingsnake.com/uromastyx/caresheets/MOROCCON1.htm

Excessive humidity can possibly cause blister disease which is often observed on newly acquired specimens of Uromastyx. These blisters can become secondarily infected by bacteria. Many wild caught specimens of Uromastyx are often soaked to hydrate them after long periods in transport following removal from the wild. This may lead to blister disease if done excessively. In addition, high sugar solutions such as Gatoradeâ are used which can leave a residue of sugar on the skin therefore providing a medium for bacteria to grow on (Dr. Greg Moore, personal communication).

So the benefit of the pedialyte dip is a myth, as far as I am concerned, and I hope people reading this will spread the word!

 

[EdwardK]

Okay this thread caught my eye as for a long time pedialyte was used in the hobby as a treatment for amphibians that are showing signs of MBD (seizures) without understanding that it lacks calcium..
On a read through of the thread, I have some serious questions about the idea that soaking is a negative... while it can leave a sugar residue.. this residue is going to have little impact on absorbtion of heat for thermoregulation (as was alleged early in the thread) as any residue is going to be too thin to act as a insulator..
Do you have any references that prove that the sugar residue is going to absorb UVB as most of the common sugars do not absorb well in that band (around 285 nm is optimal) and would be moot if sufficient dietary D3 is provided.

Back to soaking in general.... soaking as a treatment is a accepted method of treatment for animals that are not adequately hydrated (see Mader et al, Reptile Medicine and Surgery, second edition, 2006 Saunders Press) provided that it is not soaked excessively.. Excessive soaking without a option to allow for complete drying of the skin is going to increase the risk of skin infections regardless if there is a sugar solution in the soaking solution or not....

As a further consideration, soaking is intended also to allow the reptile a chance to orally (or absorbed via cloacal tissues) ingest as much fluids as it chooses. You are correct in the assertion that water absorbtion is going to be minimal at best through other avenues however many dehydrated reptiles are going to also be low in fat bodies and other metabolic reserves which the sugars if ingested will help provide some initial reserves.

If the sugar is of a significant concern, then a simple rinse once it is removed from the soak and then dried would alleviate any concerns.

Soaking has been listed as a treatment option for a number of reasons in multiple publications.. see for example Biomedical and Surgical Aspects of Reptile Husbandry...

Ed

 

[rosebud945]

many dehydrated reptiles are going to also be low in fat bodies and other metabolic reserves which the sugars if ingested will help provide some initial reserves.

I am not arguing that electrolyte treatment is not effective at all. I am arguing that electrolytes should be taken INTERNALLY by the reptile, and that it is probably useless if applied EXTERNALLY unless proven otherwise. I give rescues electrolytes by mouth, by tube, and by sub cutaneous injections, but I still see no evidence that, while soaking in water might be somewhat beneficial to a dehydrated reptile, soaking in pedialyte, Gatorade, or any other electrolyte solution is not and can be detrimental to an already compromised reptile.

I have provided at least one vet statement here, along with my vet's opinion that it is not a good idea, so if anyone has any data or literature that suggests that soaking in PEDIALYTE or gatorade can be beneficial, then please post it, and I will gladly stand corrected.

One other thing. Desert reptiles that are soaked really do run a higher risk of developing blister disease because they are not build to withstand high external humidity. This idea is supported by herpetologist, Dr. Montanucci, and I am in the process of emailing him to make a statement about this.

 

[EdwardK]

Ahh yes... desert reptiles do not use burrows where they are exposed to constanst higher humidity and moisture... The problem is if they are kept wet too long without a chance to dry out.

Soaking the reptiles allows for the uptake of moisture and electrolytes via oral and cloacal absorbtion.. see Mader et al and Frye.. this primary method of hydration and absorbtion is being overlooked in an attempt to discredit the potential benefits.

If you are going to be serious in rehabbing herps and providing better information its always better to aquire some of the better relevent texts even though they are fairly costly.. I have both editions of Mader's text, Frye's two volume set, Whittaker and Wright's text and about 18 years of closely working with a number of vets (incuding Dr. Kevin Wright in the maintence of a zoological herpetological collection...

Ed

 

[rosebud945]

Can you show me a passage in which they specifically state that electrolytes can be absorbed through the cloacea? Do you have a link to that specific piece of literature? I am always open to reading good texts on rehabbing and herpetology when they are pointed out to me.

Again, I give electrolytes orally, and by tube or by sub cutaneous injection if the animal is too weak to lap, and they get far more by these methods and recover much faster than they do through soaking alone. Again, I have made no statement that denies the benefits of electrolytes taken internally. I also have a very successful record as a rehabber. There is no "if I am going to", because I am rehabbing, have been for years, and save far more than I lose as my vet and fellow herpers and rehabbers who know about my work will tell you.

 

[EdwardK]

Oddly enough there is a huge body of literature indicating electrolyte and water uptake (and excretion) via cloacal tissues. It has been best studied in aquatic and semiaquatic herps and the data goes back over 30 years.

For a example see
Trobec, Terry N.; Stanley, Jon G.; 1971; Uptake of Ions and Water by the Painted Turtle, Chrysemys picta, Copeia 3:537-542


Ed

 

[rosebud945]

I will look into that document, but I am dealing with desert herps. Much more research has been done on this group of lizards since 1971. If you have more recent literature that reconfirms the idea that electrolytes can be absorbed through the cloacea, then it would be more convincing to me.

In the meantime, this is an excerpt from wildlife biologist Randall Gray's uro care sheet. I also plan to pick up his book on desert lizards, published in 2003.

WATER
Most desert species are adapted to live without free water. Uromastyx ornatus comes from the Sinai Peninsula where it rains less than 2 inches per year. Many species obtain moisture from the food they consume. There is evidence that some species, such as the Australian Moloch and North American horned lizards, collect morning dew on their scales which is then channeled toward the mouth. Many herpetoculturists soak their Uromastyx aegyptius in water and claim that the animal swells as it absorbs water. Whether the animal is actually filling up with water or only filling it's body cavity with air is unknown. Considering that this is a desert species, soaking in water seems inconsistent with adaptations to arid conditions and could lead to respiratory infections if the animal does not thoroughly dry after soaking. Water can be provided infrequently in a bowl. The bowl should not be left for long periods in the cage or it can raise the humidity to possibly unacceptable levels. Baby Uromastyx ornatus will drink water sprayed on the side of the cage.

Doug Dix also made a similar statement on ks, and I will let you know what Richard Montanucci says if and when he responds to my email. Obviously there is some doubt among some biologists and herpetologists in spite of the earlier conclusions, but I will get and read the literature that you sited.

 

[EdwardK]

As I noted above there is over 30 years of documentation in the literature and most of it is readily pulled up on a basic literature search. The fact that the one I posted is 30 years old does not invalidate it in any way but if you choose to take the time, there is much more recent data available. I have better things to do with my time than to demonstrate that a reasonable amount of research would provide sufficient data to show that your argument has some issues.
As an additional comment, the tissues in the cloaca in desert, aquatic and tropical reptiles are very homologous and function in the same manner... given that it is known to occur in a wide variety of reptiles is a extremely strong indicator that it will occur in all reptiles.


Are you aware that when provided with a excess of water, Uromastyx store the excess water in a number of organs which causes them to swell? This is because excess drinking water is often not readily available to Uromastyx in the wild... a study documenting this can be purchased here http://www.springerlink.com/content/h26g293h01771127/
This swelling has been reported anecdotally on soaking the Uromastyx.....



Ed