Soaking in Pedialyte a NO NO!

[Mooing Tricycle]

It saddens me that a person tries SO HARD to make THEIR way of information appear right.

Ed, i thank you for the VALUABLE information you have provided based upon your own research and personal knowledge on the subject. It is Greatly appreciated!

 

[rosebud945]

I started this conversation because it is pretty clear that soaking these particular chucks in pedialyte without rinsing it nearly caused a potentially fatal bacterial infection as per my vet. If I hadn't known what I was doing and missed the lesions, they would have died.

I will not argue this issue to the death here, but I still believe, based on conversations with my vet, discussions with other rehabbers, and my own experience, that soaking alone provides only minimal relief if you have a seriously dehydrated animal and soaking along will not be enough if you are dealing with the level of dehydration that I do routinely. Also, if you do not rinse the pedialyte off, as many people obviously don't because they hear about soaking and don't actually read how and why it might work, then you are risking bacterial growth and infection, especially of there is an incomplete shed, as was the case with these chucks. I think it is important that people understand this because I have seen many people soak a dehydrated animal ONLY, thinking that if it was to be saved, that would do it, and that is simply not true. If soaking is effective, then it should only be done in conjunction with the other hydration methods that I have mentioned if the animal has severe dehydration.

There is a growing concern among some very well respected uro keepers, Doug Dix and Randall Gray to name a few, and desert lizard keepers and researchers that soaking desert lizards is contraindicated. I have yet to hear back from Professor Montanucci, but hope to soon. I have provided some recent quotes here as well, which you haven't responded to, by the way, Ed. Is a degree in wildlife biology such as Gray has not convincing enough that he might have enough intellectual weight to at least question conventional thinking on this issue? I would guess that he has read all of the literature that you have sited, and still doubts. I plan to continue to read up on this issue, and I will stick to the methods that I use that are working VERY well for me, for other rehabbers that I know and trust and for the animals in my care, ie, oral fluids, tube feeding fluids, and Sub Q injections, and soaking in water.

 

[EdwardK]

Actually if you read through my posts I did respond to your anecdotal quotes...with actual literature references such as Mader et al and Frye (both of whom by the way could easily be considered some of the pioneers and continuing groundbreakers in Reptile Husbandry and thier publications are the authoritative references for herpetological medical husbandry)....
Those were the ones you were hoping were on line remember?
Now if you reread your citation on humidity from your caresheet.. note that it says excessive.. excessive soaking and excessive humidity are both a problem regardless of what you soak them in.. (and if you carefully read my post again, I noted that excessive is a problem and that the animal has to get dry). There is nothing in either of your posted reference that indicates a one time or even a couple short soaks are a problem regardless of what it is soaked in provided that the animal is able to get dry again and isn't kept in a overly humid condition (which would prevent the animal from being able to dry out properly).

I am still waiting for citations of the idea that the residue of pedialyte inhibits UVB passage to the skin or blocks the ability of the reptile to thermoregulate.. Those are two of the reasons you gave why pedialyte is a problem...

Can you provide any citation why a degree in wildlife biology would make someone more qualified to comment on reptiles than Mader etc who are certified Reptile vets?

I have no problems with ground breaking ideas provided that they are not mixed up with bad idealogy as we can pay that price for years.. for example the idealogy of a "specialist" is why reptile and amphibian supplements do not contain a source of vitamin A as retinol instead they contain only beta carotene because that specialist decided that retinol was killing the chameleons and as a result there is a ever increasing body of data that indicates that most captive anurans and many reptiles are probably suffering from some level of hypovitaminosis of A with a resulting decrease in fertility, immune competance and other issues....

Dogma is a problem particuarly if it gets tied up with bad ideas such as the problem with UVB and thermoregulation....


Ed

 

[rosebud945]

From Doug Dix

Posted by: douglasdix at Fri Jun 16 11:10:15 2006 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by douglasdix ] Share Send a tweet to Twitter!

None of the desert species of lizards can absorb usable water directly though skin. It’s a folk tale that just won’t die due to people misinterpreting casual observations. To the same degree fingernails can absorb water, most reptile skin can, which is to say it’s an insignificant and painfully slow process. This is how soaking aids in shedding for some species (by softening/ weakining the skin). But even this water is trapped within the matrix of the skin and is not readily passed through. If it could get through in biologically significant amounts, all Uros would die of dehydration during shedding as they secrete fluid between the old skin and the underlying developing new skin for many days to even weeks at a time. Compare this to a few minutes soak and you can see the absurdity of thinking significant amounts of water are crossing the skin barrier. It’s counter–productive to have water permeable skin in a highly arid environment. At best a few species have scales that can direct surface moisture from morning dews to funnel towards the mouth for intake normally (or more remotely to the cloaca - not proven but theoretically possible but unlikely in Uros due to the design of the cloacal covering). But none can directly absorb biologically significant amounts of water through the skin.

People often think Uros are absorbing water during soaking because they seem to get bigger. This is from them swallowing air (a defensive reaction). Dripped water disappearing on the skin is an optical illusion brought on by the fact the scales of the skin direct water droplets outward making them seem to have been absorbed.

Soaking in water is not a natural behavior in Uromastyx. Most panic if the water is more than a few centimeters deep, as in the wild this would indicate they’ve gotten caught in a flash flood. There are almost never opportunities for arid desert species to “soak” in true standing water. Free standing water in a true arid desert is usually from a brief flash rain where “standing “ water is usually only in the wadis (dry stream beds) where it is moving quickly and thus often fatal to be caught it. At best coastal species can get access to morning dew but even this is extremely transitory.

FWIW,

Douglas Dix
Deer Fern Farms

I will post more as I find them.

 

[EdwardK]

Nothing in that quote contradicts anything I posted above.. the fact that thier skin is impervious was not contested in any of my posts and does not negate oral hydration or hydration via the cloacal tissues during soaking as noted above.. apparently your reference has not read the literature where swelling can also be by storage of water in the tissues.

Ed

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

I just wanted to add a few extra things:

Gatorade and pedialyte are made for mammals (humans) and have electrolyte and sugar levels appropriate for mammals, not reptiles. Even without added skin problems it could do more harm than good. Unless you KNOW your reptile's electrolyte status by doing bloodwork, you should only use water or 0.9% saline (injectable). (And even if needed, ringer's solution would be used, not pedialyte)

Soaking can help dehydration in reptiles. I don't have alot of experience with uro's and chuck's but with most reptiles cloacal absorption can be even better than oral. In fact with dehydrated tortoises, cloacal washes/enemas/soaking can be more beneficial than them just drinking water. I believe the book I read that in was Jacobsen's most recent reptile disease book but can't remember the title of the top of my head.

I have also seen the swelling after over hydration so that is something also to be careful about.

I think your original post makes a good point. Short soaks for minor dehydration or constipation can be beneficial if used in moderation, but if it doesn't help please seek advice from a veterinarian!

No 1 way is "the right" way and illnesses are not always what they appear to be.
Just a few other things to keep in mind for people who read this post.