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something most people don't about the

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franklinedwards60

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Cereal Company Joins in Partnership with Nation’s Largest Animal Rights Group (12/11)

reprinted by permission of WLFA


General Mills, maker of a variety of breakfast cereals, is promoting the nation’s largest animal rights organization by distributing free calendars in specially marked boxes of Golden Grahams cereal.

The “Pets and Their Celebrities” 2002 calendars feature information from the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) and its Kids in Nature’s Defense (KIND) News. It includes photos of a number of celebrities and their pets, including Christina Applegate, David Alan Grier and Brendan Fraser.

KIND News is a classroom newspaper the HSUS uses to spread its animal rights message to children. Produced by the National Association for Humane and Environmental Education, a youth education division of the HSUS, this newspaper is printed monthly and is read by more than 1.2 million school children, grades K-6.

“General Mills has made a tremendous mistake in its support of the Humane Society of the United States,” said WLFA President Bud Pidgeon. “In this partnership, General Mills and Golden Grahams cereal are promoting an organization that is determined to eliminate the American traditions of hunting, fishing, trapping, animal agriculture and other animal use.”

General Mills is not alone in their misunderstanding of the nation’s largest animal rights group.

“The HSUS has millions of people fooled into thinking it is raising money to save dogs and cats that are stranded in local shelters,” said Pidgeon. “The truth is HSUS does not operate or oversee any animal shelters. In fact, the organization spent less that one percent of its 1999 income of $67 million on grants to wildlife, animal habitat and dog and cat shelters.”

Take Action! Sportsmen should contact General Mills to express their extreme displeasure of its support for the Humane Society of the United States. Contact Stephen W. Sanger, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of General Mills, at P.O. Box 1113, Minneapolis, MN, 55440 or call him at (763) 764-7600.

You may also send an online comment to General Mills through this link: http://www.generalmills.com/corporate/comments/ or call them toll free # 1-(800) 328-1144 (7:30 a.m. - 5:30 p.m. CST, weekdays)


here is the link
 
Good looking out Sir and an excellent point about humane societies and animal rights groups in general... They do not like the pet trade or any sort of naturalist spotsman activities. Many of these types of groups get even more restrictive than that... PETA for instance wants to end the use  of animals in all medical testing and manufacture of drugs and medicines... Antivenin for instance... and Insulin (despite the fact their president is a severe diabetic, it's okay for her to use it because her life means more than yours).

One thing though...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Christina Applegate, David Alan Grier and Brendan Fraser.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Which would be... Married with Children, In Living Color and Encino Man (which was a PAULY SHORE movie)...

I don't think there's too much of a threat from any of these guys on the celebrity reccognition  front for the majority of your golden grahms eating demographic... David  Alan Greir still has the occasional funny moment... But not a one of them is exactly a celebrity in the common use of the word... More "washed up hacks" than anything else.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Christina Applegate, David Alan Grier and Brendan Fraser.
Which would be... Married with Children, In Living Color and Encino Man (which was a PAULY SHORE movie)...

I don't think there's too much of a threat from any of these guys on the celebrity reccognition  front for the majority of your golden grahms eating demographic... David  Alan Greir still has the occasional funny moment... But not a one of them is exactly a celebrity in the common use of the word... More "washed up hacks" than anything else.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You dont get to the movies much if you think Encino man was Brendan Fraser's las movie.  He is also the lead star in The Mummy, The Mummy Returns, George of The Jungle, Blast from the Past and quite a few others that are pretty popular, along with a few that were very stupid hehe but still I wouldnt consider him a washed up hack.  The rest yes I would agree with that.
 
Thanks for the heads up; I sent in my comments in opposition of this partnership between GM and HSUS. I made sure to point out that my consumption of GM products would cease if their support of HSUS did no cease.

One note, someone added a post saying that it was good of you to warn us about this and that HUMANE SOCIETIES (in general as I understood the reply) were anti pet owners. That in essence is not usually correct in my experience. Humand Societies are usually pro pet owner, and usually run animal shelters where they offer pets for adoption. It is THE HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES, aka HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE US, aka: HSUS that is adamantly opposed to pet ownership from what others have told me and from what I have read about them. Please don't confuse the HSUS with your local Humane Society - they are usually on different tracks all together.
 
I'd just like to note that the Humane Society of the US *is* pro-pet, as far as domesticated pets...They recognize that cats and dogs can't survive out in the wild because they've been bred to please humans and are now dependent on us. I'm not siding with them 100% or even close--they send me SO much junk mail!--but their main goals involve things like banning/closing puppy mills, creating more no-kill animal shelters, convincing people to get a pet from a shelter instead of a pet store, etc., and *getting the word out*. That last part relates to the cereal thing. They just want kids to grow up feeling compassion for animals, etc etc., I'll stop before I start sounding too much like a crazy hippie.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
 
And two more things:
1.) In reference to:
   “General Mills and Golden Grahams cereal are promoting an organization that is determined to eliminate the American traditions of hunting, fishing, trapping, animal agriculture and other animal use.”...and all that crap about sportsmen... That's ridiculous. OF COURSE they want to eliminate these so-called "American traditions"! To quote so many vegs before me: "How can you love an animal called a pet and eat an animal called dinner?" The point is, there's no such thing as a meat-eating environmentalist or meat-eating animal-lover, and most of the people who run these organizations (HSUS, PETA, etc.) are both.

2.) Insulin, though tradionally extracted from pig pancreas, can now be synthesized in a lab using a strain of bacteria found in the human gut...LacZ60? Something like that.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and all that crap about sportsmen... That's ridiculous. OF COURSE they want to eliminate these so-called "American traditions"</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Yes... much better to let these animals overpopulate and starve if the chronic wasting disease doesn't get 'em first.  That's enormously humane, isn't it?  Where do you think the money to maintain wildlife preserves and state and national forests and parks comes from? All those jogging liscences?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The point is, there's no such thing as a meat-eating environmentalist or meat-eating animal-lover</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I eat meat... I've got the degrees and the history of personal action and activism to be considered an environmentalist... I am also an animal lover-  and reccognize there are biological imperatives and evolutionary niches for predatory species. Humans may not have to eat meat (and incidentally, the jury is still out on that and I don't really want a bunch of fanatical vegan literature telling me different... Facts and numbers are subjective no matter how firmly any given individual believes them) but I enjoy it and it's my moral descision to do so or not do so.

I'm not going to start attacking you tofu munchers for the death of plants... And I can certainly find enough "facts"  to twist around and convince people who don't know better that they feel it when they are killed with documentation... But somehow that respect for an alternate viewpoint and allowance for alternate value systems doesn't extend both ways.

And that crack about no need for medical testing on animals... I'd really like you to stand in front of a gymnasium full of cancer patients (stereotypical example I know, but appropriate), people who have been paralized due to nervous system damage, MS afflicted individuals and people who's kids have died from any number of complications that there is ongoing research for that involves... Yes, Rats occasionally dying or being deliberatly injured or afflicted with a sickness! and explain to those people why animal testing is wrong and that they can just go ahead and live in pain until they die, long  before they otherwise might.

I need to go now because that steak the size of a toilet seat has been on my grill for a full two minutes and I don't want the center to warm up  before I eat it. I'll close with the line "Sic semper tyrannus" and a request that you look at your uncompromising veggie and vegan views and consider the fact that they just maybe are an infringement on the "rights" of other humans.
 
HSUS is by no means the "animal welfare" organization that they tout themselves as. They are a left-wing animal rights group, with much the same misguided agendas as PeTA (People for extremism and terrorist acts).

Some notable quotes from the HSUS hieracrchy...
"The life of an ant and the life of my child should be granted equal consideration"- Dr. Michael Fox

(On the use of insect sprays) "Only a few of the million you kill would have bitten you."- Dr Michael Fox

"Don't breed dogs, don't buy, don't even accept giveaways"- HSUS CEO John Hoyt

"We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding. ...One generation and out. We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding"- HSUS VP Wayne Pacelle.

Finally, we must deal with this:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To quote so many vegs before me: "How can you love an animal called a pet and eat an animal called dinner?" The point is, there's no such thing as a meat-eating environmentalist or meat-eating animal-lover...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

The "how can you" is a type of pseudoreasoning known as begging the question. Taking the flawed logic one step sideways, you could easily ponder the question, "how can you love an animal and keep it confined in an unnatural state?"

As for the "there's no such thing" statement, that is so patently false that I won't bother addressing it further.
 
Rather than argue with you guys about this point, which is like arguing about religion--it never gets anywhere--I'll just say this: why do people always have to attack others on forums like this? Not to act like a victim, but it's not like I was attacking any of you in the first place--just the people that think killing animals for fun is a good idea. And of all people, why does it always the skinny, soft-spoken vegetarian that you know would just sigh rather than try to make enemies?

Okay, I have to touch on one issue: hunting ADDS to problems of overpopulation and illness. Hunters generally go for the big, beautiful buck with the nice antlers that would make a great trophy to put over the fireplace, leaving the weaker animals to pass on their bad genes or even inbreed. As breeders, you'd think you guys would know this. Big, strong parents = big, strong offspring. Weak, starving parents with brittle bones = weak, starving offspring with brittle bones. Trust me, I know, this area has a lot off deer and in fact there's a small island right off the coast that's filled to the brim with sick, deformed, inbred deer that are all starving to death--a problem that started when the area was heavily hunted, and has only increased since. Now if hunters went for those crappy-looking mangy deer....yeah right. Those permits cost way too much, and everyone wants a trophy.

Please, seriously, research the issue...There is a reason why so many people are vegetarian. The health problems, environmental damage, famine, etc. that we always talk about really are linked to meat consumption, so before attacking me and taking cheap shots related to tofu, just look it up.
**peace n' love and whatever bull####...**
 
And to clarify, I never said that I side with the HSUS, nor did I even suggest that I agree with every little thing--or much of anything--they've ever said.
That "how can you..." thing is a quote. You can't change around someone's word use and then quote them. (It doesn't work that way.)

Oh yeah, and that "I'm going to go eat a steak now" bit... Real original. How 'bout this quote, by none other than Dr. Evil. "Riiiiiiiight..."
 
Well here is a post for the moderates and exrtremist among us - as I see from recent postingf that there are both. This is the reply that General Mills sent to me about an email of complaint I sent to them reference the thread topic and that calendar from HSUS. By the way: I gues that GM does not want to ban pet keeping, ranching and farm use of animals, hunting and fishing afterall; and that other customers must have complained about their association with HSUS. Enough customers to make them rethink that association as can be witnessed in their reply to  my email:

       *************************************

Dear Mr. Bartley:
 
Thank you for contacting us to express your concern with the "Pets and their Celebrities" calendar currently being included with Golden Grahams cereal.  The calendar promotes the benefits - and responsibilities - of pet ownership

We did not anticipate that a calendar promoting responsible pet ownership would be in any way controversial.  Our focus was on the message the calendar conveys, about the wonders and benefits of being a pet owner, and reinforcing the responsibilities of pet ownership.  We felt the calendar was an excellent vehicle to communicate that topic.  In no way was it intended to convey that General Mills is against hunting, fishing or farming.  General Mills is not anti-hunting or anti-fishing.  We have even honored champion fisherman on the Wheaties box, most recently in August of 1999.

But we also now realize that some of the views espoused by HSUS, from whom we obtained the calendars, are not shared by an important number of customers and consumers.  That point has been driven home by consumer contacts like yours, and we are taking your views to heart.  Your views will certainly be shared with the decision-makers involved in this and future decisions regarding our promotional tie-in partners.

Again, thank you for taking the time to contact us and make us aware of your feeling on this matter.

Sincerely,

Eric Metzer

General Mills
Consumer Services

NOT A BAD RESPONSE FROM GM AND NICE TO SEE THAT THEY ARE RECONSIDERING BASED UPON OTHER CONSUMER"S FEELINGS ABOUT HSUS!!!!!!!! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>
 
When you hunt you eat the meat and put the head on the wall. YOu want the biggest for both reasons.

Bigger rack and more meat.

Also you may try for the biggest and best but on the last day of the season you go for the first one.

One more point I have to say is this

From the good book


Genesis 9:1-3

1   So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth."
2   "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand."
3   "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs."
 
Way to Go Glenn !!!!

As far as hunting adding to the overpopulation goes,Well on that I would have to disagree with you....IF humans didn't develope either for farming or housing the animals habitat then there would be enough food and space so that inbreeding and brittle bones would not occur. I myself am an enviromentalist who also eats meat. How can I say that?? Easy enough. I believe in the responsible use of resources that includes all resources. And yes I do recycle as well nor do I believe in wasting what nature has given us. I also believe in hunting and fishing . I have done both and will do both in the future. But I do not kill just for fun nor do I waste what I have killed. I do not kill what I won't eat. I believe that is responsible way to view it. As for vegitarians go I believe that to be thier lifestyle choice just as mine is to be someone who eats meat as well as veggies. But to ban all use of animals even for medical research is ludicrous. I know for a fact that insulin is made both from cattle as well as pigs and while that is also insulin that is derived from the human enzymes not everyone can tolerate it. Are we to condem those people to death? Or to allow someone who is bitten by a snake to die because of a lack of antivenom? As far as research of new drugs go ...it is illegal to test on humans..if we cannot test first on animals how are we to derive the safety of new drugs? Are you willing to allow yourself or your family member to be the guinea pig?

Alison Crews
 
While we're getting into religious scripture, how about:

"Thou shalt not kill"

It's pretty self-explanatory. It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill *people*" or "Thou shalt kill cows and chickens but not dogs", it just says not to kill. Thus, it's a sin to kill any living being, whether a plant or a bug or a snake. BUT there's a huge difference between "killing" a head of lettuce for a salad and killing a dog or a person. According to many eastern religions, this is their truth, and to them killing the lettuce is just less of a sin than killing the dog, who has the capability to suffer, which is less of a sin than killing a human. It's a sort of heirarchy, I suppose. This, to an extent, is how I feel. Note that it doesn't mean that I think we shouldn't be killing plants; I'm just explaining what somebody had asked me. Anyway, there's plenty of stuff in the Bible, as well as every other major piece of religious scripture, that talks about how people shouldn't kill and eat animals. But I'm no theology expert, nor have I read in their entirety any of those things.

And as far as the medication thing, you're deluding yourself if you think that testing something on animals makes it safe. The USDA requires that all new medications be tested on animals before they're put on the market. This law has been in effect for several decades. However, if you look at the number of drug recalls in the past several decades, you'll find that, despite having been tested on animals and proven to be "safe", they nevertheless caused all sorts of problems never forseen by the scientists. Could this be because a rat's body is completely different than that of a human?
Explain to ME, since you're the one that says animal testing is necessary, why chemicals are tested on rabbits' eyes to test how they would hurt a human's eyes, despite the fact that no person is dumb enough to leave caustic chemicals in their eyes for more than a few seconds (far less than the 72 hour average for the tests), they'd rinse their eyes soon after, and rabbits can't cry! Humans' eyes naturally water to flush out chemicals, whereas rabbits have no such mechanism.
Or how about testing chemicals on rats' skin, by shaving their backs and placing the chemical there for days or weeks. Among the other reasons why the eye-test is dumb to do with rabbits, rats can't sweat! Another way to clear out caustic chemicals. There are all sorts of things like this. My only point is that we already know certain things about drugs, chemicals, and makeup without having to go and use animals. Most new drugs on the market aren't really new, just new variations of old drugs that we already know about.

Besides, since you asked, my opinion on drugs is that no, of course I wouldn't want me or my family to be guinea pigs for new medications, besides the obvious risks, but mainly because Americans are chock-full of all sorts of unnecessary medications already. I'm pretty against overusing drugs of any sort--medicine in small amounts in poison in larger amounts. And look at what the new medications are for: herpes, anemia (hello? iron supplements&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>, the "muscle-building pill" (uh, how about exercise?), diet pills (how about exercise or eating right?), etc.
And as far as the roomful of cancer patients, we already have chemotherapy. I'm not damning all the cancer patients of the world, and though chemotherapy and other such things aren't perfect, they're still pretty good. And maybe if people didn't do things that cause cancer and then wonder why it heppened to them...smoking, for example, or eating large amounts of meat, which has been proven to increase risk of colon, prostate, and breast cancer.

And by the way, I misquoted: "If you love animals called pets, WHY do you eat animals called dinner?" And don't say "because they're tasty".

Since you're all asking me to explain my beliefs (so you can argue with me?) I'd like to ask all of you what you think about people in China eating snakes. Of course, they don't euthanize them the way us herpers do; they string them up by the neck, cut the skin right behind the head, and peel it off, while the snake is still alive (as he will be for the next few hours until he dies). Standard practice. And people in Korea eating dogs. Men feel that eating the flesh of a dog who was beaten before being killed will make him more virile, because of the adrenaline released. This is also standard. Now, personally (it doesn't have to be your opinion) I don't see why Americans think it's okay to kill and eat a cow or a chicken but conversely think it's completely unthinkable to kill a dog, or disgusting to eat organ meat or bugs or Indian krait ice cream. Explain to me how it's not hypocritical...?

I feel like I have to point something out--something nobody noticed when I mentioned it earlier: what did I do or say to warrant an attack on me? All I said was what the Humane Society is out to do and why they said something. Since when does everyone feel the need to attack--and change?--my personal beliefs? Everyone's asking "if you do this, then why do you do this?" or things like that and since when did this become the forum where everyone picks fights with each other? By the things you say and the way you say them, that's all you come across as. We all know that nobody's going to come out of this forum with a changed mind. Not in a stupid conversation like this.
 
Okay, scratch that last part...Alison is being very civilized. Now all you boys, get some manners! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>  Seriously, this whole thing is so silly and yet you're all so passionate about it.

By the way, to whoever said the thing about hunting and how you "don't do it for fun"....I don't know much about hunting, but I do know that most people I've talked to enjoy hunting for the "sport", the need to fulfill the chasing instinct, and the thrill of the hunt. If you're not doing it for the fun, or the rush, or whatever, then why don't you just go out and buy some venison or pheasant or whatever? No doubt the permit costs as much as buying the meat. Not that I'm telling you that it's what you should do, but I'd like to know what the difference is in a hunter's eyes.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I feel like I have to point something out--something nobody noticed when I mentioned it earlier: what did I do or say to warrant an attack on me?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You were not attacked. Your paradigm was. There is a difference. What was actually challenged was the flawed logic of animal rights.
 
So your snake is a carnivore, and as of no fault of his own he has to eat meat and Vegans are tearing up the insides of their cats by feeding veggie kibble.

So sense we are omnivores, meant to eat meat and plants.

Then you are saying you are tearing up your insides by not doing so. Sense this is how you were born and you were fed off the breast of your mother. And in doing so started life off as carnivore.

As to what animals we eat and do not eat that is all by choice and they would all be good for you in some way.

You say you are not hurting anything but you feed your snake mice?

As to the Bible it is a book of God's word written down by man. So man was his secretary, he wrote down what he was told.

As I do not know anything of other religions. I can not debate what they believe. I do know the Bible does not say what animals to eat and what no to. Most is based on what they are best for. As an Ox could be used to plow fields, dogs to help hunt and cows food. And I'm sure when your dog is old he could be eaten if you choose.

This is one comment that is the reason people are talking to you in the way they are.

You said (Florencia R.)

"I have to say that they still have some good ideas, in theory--mainly the ones about compassion for animals, not only for the sake of the animals themselves, but also for the sake of the environment, public health, etc. (For info, see www.taxmeat.com--it's a silly idea and it's run by PETA but it has info that I can prove to you is true.)"

What people read is that you agree with PETA but not the way on which they pass on their message. And PETA would like to see all humans eating plants not animals. Also if they have their way no one would have any pets even your pet snake. So make sure you side with the people on your side. We all have ideas and ewe need to protect those ideas and not try to change laws so all people have to go by what I believe.
 
Okay, so you can "attack my paradigm" but I can't disagree with you....Why do I even bother saying anything?
I don't side with PETA...Can't somebody agree with just SOME of what people say? Nobody agrees with everything 100%.
And when I said this thread (or the other one? #### it...both) was stupid, I meant that the conversation should end because it's become a "why Flo sucks: let's all argue with her and prove her wrong" thread. So rather than trying to clear up what I've said because you people misunderstand *everything* that I say, I'll just stop. What a cop-out. And to think I actually put some faith into people...

"Kids, you have tried and failed miserably. The lesson is: never try." (Homer Simpson)
 
Why Flo Sucks!

No, just kidding, I don't think people were attacking you personally.  The problem is these organizations work to ban what for all of us is a passion, and some of us a way of making a living.  Sure these organizations do help animals the right way.  But they repeatedly try to get our pets, hobbies, whatever you want to call it banned.  When these topics come up, you've got to expect a backlash.  And having someone who themselves keeps herps supporting, or seeming to support their actions is hard for a lot of us to comprehend.

Everyone has their opinions, I agree with that.  But these groups try to force their opinions on the rest of us.  With their views being all reptiles are dangerous or something along that line, it's hard to take them seriously at all.  When was the last time someone was killed by a wild pack of leopard geckos.  Or maybe some poor camper was scarred for life by a chance run in with a renegade beardie.  They don't take a stance that would even be understandable, it's just all is bad, across the board, no exceptions.  Reptiles do have a place as pets, some of us are allergic to mammalian pets, myself included.  So, no dogs or cats for me, and birds are too loud for my tastes.  I'm sure their is a middle ground somewhere, such as laws that make abuse of reptiles the same as abusing dogs and cats, and responsible ownership, but not to take them away.

And Flo, to keep others from attacking your "logic", just don't use any, that's what I do.
 
Well, see, here's the funny thing: I never said I supported PETA. I don't. In fact, I said that I, too, oppose their whole reptile ban. So I'm getting backlash for saying that I agree with everybody? What?? The only things people are telling me is that I attack their beliefs, that my beliefs are stupid and wrong, etc., and yet that's what everyone's doing to me. And all of this is just because everyone has these completely wrong ideas of what I said. I mean, why is everything black-and-white with people? Just because I agree with some of what PETA thinks, to the extent of people being veg but not to the point of actually hurting people for "the cause", doesn't mean that I agree with their extremist practices or views. I know you all would have been the same way if I'd said  "everything about PETA sucks except this one ad they did about being vegetarian" and people would be like, "no, screw you crazy vegetarians! blah blah blah" because that's what almost everyone's been doing until now. The thing that gets me is that I agree with you people about everything except eating animals and yet everything I say is taken personally and attacked...my so-called "flawed logic of animal rights". What about the flawed 'logic' of human dominion over all other species? Why does it matter? We could all argue till we're blue in the face and yet we still won't get anywhere because everyone is arguing for, and apparently against, their own opinions.
*blue in the face, sick to the stomach*
 
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